JetsJoe: I have studied the records. Again, while the actual attendance is lower than their reported attendance, that's still doing reasonably well in their first seasons compared to how they did later on. Remember, they were also playing in a crappy arena in those first season, which had the worst sightlines of any arena in the league at that time. Remember, I said, "reasonably well'. Compared to their attendance in their latter years, drawing over 12,000 per game in actual attendance is reasonably well.

Next, as I've previously said, the declining numbers in their recent years was a reflection of the lousy product on the ice. Again, if the team had been a perennial playoff contender during those years and still drew poorly, you wouldn't get an argument out of me about Phoenix being a "bad market". We simply don't know that. It has nothing to do with having a 'soft spot' for Phoenix as I have no dog in this fight. It's merely pointing out an obvious fact, the Coyotes attendance numbers correlate with the quality of their on-ice product, just like most NHL teams.

Yes, the Jets loses in their final season were nowhere near those currently of the Coyotes, but that doesn't detract from the fact they were losing money, and losing so much their ownership couldn't afford to keep the team there, and couldn't get a new arena deal in place. The reason they needed a new arena was just to get a better lease, it was to increase revenue to keep up with the growing cost of maintaining an NHL franchise. I've listed the reasons in an earlier post:

community.foxsports.com/Spector/blog/200...

Times might've changed but not the viability of the Winnipeg market. Thomson might believe he can make a go of it but that doesn't mean he can. As I noted in my earlier blog post on this subject, Winnipeg would remain the smallest, most isolated market in the league, with a fan base that outside the Maritimes draws the lowest weekly average wage and are amongst the highest taxed in Canada.

That'll mean this team would have to charge the lowest fan cost index in the league, which in turn would ensure it would be a club like the Nashville Predators, perennially unable to keep up with the rising cap, forced to maintain a roster near the cap floor.

It has nothing to do with Winnipegers or Manitobans love of hockey. If that were all it took to land an NHL franchise, we'd see another six in Canada. It has everything to do with market size and potential, which is why the NHL prefers to keep the Coyotes in Phoenix or failing that would look at ownership willing to move it to Kansas City or Southern Ontario (with the Leafs blessing). Winnipeg is as many observed more like "Plan C", if anything.

That's the reality, whether you want to admit it or not. Hey, if the league ultimately decides to move the Coyotes back to Winnipeg or place another franchise there, I'll wish that franchise and the city of Winnipeg the best of luck, but I fear the issues which drove the Jets out of town would rear its ugly head once again.

Spector, I have been assuming that you have read all the bankruptcy records from the trial. But perhaps you have not spent the same amount of time studying them as me. I’ve got all the records if you would like to review them and maybe update your blog.

First let’s tackle your statement that the “Coyotes did reasonably well at the gate playing in a crappy arena with a decent team”

Simply not true. The bankruptcy records show that during the first years in Arizona, the team averaged an actual turnstile count of only 12,068 in attendance despite announcing an average attendance of 14,824 (still low). That’s during their “golden” period. So, no they never drew a large crowd.

But attendance is really a function of season tickets sold. Interestingly enough, the Coyotes biggest year for season tickets was the 2006/07 season when they had 6,246 season ticket holders. That’s only 35% of capacity. I think we both agree a good NHL team requires roughly 80% rate. The Coyotes have never came close.

The problem that Phoenix has is that despite a large population, the NHL ranks far below the NFL, MLB, NBA, NCAA football, NCAA Basketball and NASCAR. So even a spectacular Hockey season in Phoenix is soon forgotten because of all the competition in the area. In short, it’s a tough market for hockey, dare I say “bad hockey market”

Now let’s tackle what you said about Winnipeg losing money: The Jets loses were nowhere near the $316M (and counting) lost in Phoenix over the past 14 years.

In fact, the Jets existed for 24 years with relatively good profitability. However the arena lease with WEC retained all non-hockey related revenues, charged the Jets rent and even kept in-game revenues related to concessions, liquor, most in-game advertizing and even parking. In short it was a bad lease and Barry Shenkarow wanted out and wanted a new arena. The city dropped the ball back in the early 90’s and Bettman was more than happy to gamble on the Southern Belt back then. Shenkarow clearly stated that fan support and corporate support was never the issue. It was a bad arena and a worse lease.

Well times have changed, and Winnipeg has a new arena not owned by the city. David Thomson sees potential in Winnipeg, and who are we to doubt him? I know you have written extensively on how the population is too small and Winnipeggers’ earnings are too small. I have extensive rebuttals to those myths too, but I’ll save if for the next time you pooh-pooh the idea of the NHL returning to Winnipeg.

If you don’t have all the Bankruptcy documents, please say so and I’ll be happy to forward all of them to you.

Please don’t take this the wrong way. I really like your articles and your website. I just think you have a “soft spot” for Phoenix.

JetsJoe: The facts speak for themselves. In their first seasons, as I noted, the Coyotes did reasonably well at the gate playing in a crappy arena with a decent team. Their gate numbers tanked as the bad seasons piled up. That's reflected in the average actual attendance. Their numbers were pretty good in the first few seasons but began to decline as the team went downhill and hastened in recent years as the club continued to miss the playoffs.

Had the Coyotes continued to be a perennial playoff contender as they were in their first four seasons, never or rarely missing the playoffs, and their numbers were tanking, you'd wouldn't get an argument out of me over Phoenix as a bad hockey market. But we simply don't know if that's true or not. And having Wayne Gretzky coach your team is not a selling point if it's losing year after year, now is it? Good luck selling any team in most markets like that.

Got news for you, the reason the Jets moved was because they were losing money, and were going to lose even more. That's why the owners at the time wanted a new arena built, and sold when they couldn't get it. That's why no owners could be found willing to keep the team in what was then the NHL's smallest and most isolated market.

It has nothing to do with me "favoring" Phoenix over Winnipeg, it's merely pointing out the facts that a lot of people are conveniently - or willfully - overlooking.

If you don't like what I have to say about this particular topic, JetsJoe, then don't waste your time reading it. It'll spare you the aggravation, because I'm not letting this drop. Nothing personal, this is business, and it's a topic I believe is worth commentary and discussion. Cheers.