Hi all, this is the NBA Legends Competition. It started with a draft of all former and current NBA players, and now we've moved onto deciding which of the assembled teams is the best. If you've missed the last few posts on this, you might want to check out this one and this one. Enjoy.
xphoenix87 wins the match with a score of 8-1. He will move on to the championship round. Arguments for the championship round are due at 7:00PM EST.
AK47spiderman
Overview
“Heroes of the Hardwood” (will fix poster when
i get
time) is a seven-man roster of basketball legends drafted by
AK47spiderman for xphoenix87’s NBA Legends Tournament.
The NBA Legends Tournament is an 8-team single
elimination tournament showcasing some of the best players in basketball
history. Because these matches showcase players from different eras
coming together, a specific date/version of each player will be
defined. To complete the look and feel
of a true
team of legends, I have representation from all 7 decades of the
NBA.
Roster and
Analysis
1964 - Oscar Robertson -
Point
Guard - 6'5"
The Big "O" averaged an amazing 31.4
points, 9.9 rebounds 11 assists per game in 1964. He was only four
rebounds shy of achieving his second year of averaging a triple double for a
season. Robertson also led the league that year in Assists, Free
Throw Attempts, and Free Throw Percentage. He went on to win the Most
Valuable Player award, All-Star Most Valuable Player award,
and earned an NBA First Team selection. Robertson was
also a premiere defender in the league, however All-Defensive Team
selections did not exist until five years later. John Stockton would
not have a chance in hell playing against The Big “O”. Robertson was
taller, stronger, quicker, more athletic, and more skilled with the
basketball. He would have had his way with Stockton, just as he did
with all of the point guards in his era. After totally raping Stockton
up and down the floor in the first half, xphoenix87 would need to switch it
up and have Michael Jordan try to finally contain Robertson. This
frees up John “Hondo” Havlicek to start raining BUCKETS.
Career: NBA Champion, NBA Most Valuable
Player,
NBA Rookie of the Year, 1960 Olympic Gold Medalist, 12-Time
NBA All-Star, 3-Time NBA All-Star Most Valuable Player, 9-Time All-NBA
First Team, 2-Time All-NBA Second Team, 50 Greatest Players in NBA
History. In May of 2006, ESPN named Oscar Robertson the second-best
Point Guard of all-time, just behind Magic Johnson.
1974 - John Havlicek - Shooting
Guard -
6'5"
In 1974, John “Hondo” Havlicek averaged 22.6 points, 6
assists, and 6.4 rebounds per game. He was one of the best defenders
in the league, earning an All-NBA First Team selection as well as an NBA
All-Defensive First Team selection. He could have arguably won the NBA
Defensive Player of the Year award, however the award did not exist until
nine years later. Havlicek went on to lead the Celtics to another
championship while winning the NBA Finals Most Valuable Player award.
Havlicek won eight Championships with the Boston Celtics, and is their
all-time leader in points. Havlicek would have a tough match-up
against Michael Jordan, who is arguably the best basketball player in NBA
history. Being one of the premiere defenders in the league, he would
have a slight advantage at containing Jordan. Havlicek would
neutralize Jordan’s offense, while at the same time Jordan would neutralize
Havlicek’s. If all else fails, Oscar Robertson could help double-team
Jordan and force him to give up the ball.
Career: 8-Time NBA Champion, 13-Time
NBA All-Star, NBA Finals Most Valuable Player, 4-Time All-NBA
First Team, 7-Time All-NBA Second Team, 5-Time NBA All-Defensive First Team,
3-Time NBA All-Defensive Second Team, 50 Greatest Players in NBA History.
1981 - Julius Erving - Small
Forward - 6'7"
Julius “Doctor J” Erving averaged 24.6
points, 8 rebounds, and 4.4 assists per game in 1981. Erving was known
for his fancy style of play, athleticism, strength, quickness, and
incredible slam dunks. He was an unstoppable force at small forward in
1981 and was so dominant that he went on to win the league’s Most Valuable
Player award. At 6’11, Kevin Garnett has a good four inches on
Erving. That said, Erving is stronger and quicker than Garnett.
The height discrepancy would actually favor Erving and his care-free high
octane style of basketball. Garnett would have no answer to Erving’s
post moves and explosiveness. On the other side of the ball, Erving
would man up and keep Garnett from getting too low on the block. If
Garnett does manage any successful at getting down low, Bob Pettit and
George Mikan (who are both great shot blockers) would rotate to provide weak
side help. All that said, Garnett has proven time after time that he
is not a winner. Maybe the Doctor will be nice enough to let Garnett
look at his 3 rings during pre-game warm-ups.
Career: NBA Champion, 2-Time ABA Champion,
NBA
Most Valuable Player, 3-Time ABA Most Valuable Player, 11-Time
NBA All-Star, 5-Time ABA All-Star, 2-Time NBA All-Star Most
Valuable Player, 5-Time All-NBA First Team, 4-Time All-ABA First Team,
2-Time All-NBA Second Team, 1-Time All-ABA Second Team, 50 Greatest Players
in NBA History.
1956 - Bob Pettit - Power
Forward -
6'9"
In 1956, Bob Pettit averaged an amazing 25.7 points,
16.2 rebounds, and 2.6 assists per game. Pettit was one of the most
dominant big men in his era. He achieved multiple scoring and
rebounding titles. He received two regular season MVP awards and an
amazing four All-Star MVP awards. Pettit once pulled down 40 rebounds
in a single game. Moses Malone is a good big man in his own right, but
Pettit would be too limber and agile for Malone. His finesse and
incredible mid-range jumper would force Malone to come out on him.
This would leave the middle open for penetration with only a 6’7” undersized
Center, Wes Unseld, to protect the bucket. On the other side of the
ball, Malone would have no easy task at posting up Pettit. Bobby would
give Malone a little lesson old-school style, swatting the rock into the
third row.
Career: NBA Champion, 2-Time NBA Most
Valuable
Player, NBA Rookie of the Year, 11-Time NBA All-Star, 4-Time NBA
All-Star Most Valuable Player, 10-Time All-NBA First Team, 50 Greatest
Players in NBA History.
1949 - George Mikan - Center -
6'11"
George Mikan "Mr. Basketball" averaged 28.3
points, 14.8 rebounds, and 3.6 assists in 1949. Mikan is known as one
of the pioneers of professional basketball. His prolific rebounding,
shot blocking, and hook shot dominated the league in the '40s and early
'50s. By the way, when I say dominated, I mean that Mikan won 8
championships in a 9-year period. Mikan won two regular season MVP
awards as well as an All-Star MVP. He would have arguably won more,
however All-Star games did not exist during his prime. Wes Unseld
would have NO chance at containing Mikan. Mikan’s size and agility
would run all over Unseld, forcing Moses Malone to help on a double.
This would open up movement for Pettit and Erving. With Pettit hanging
outside waiting for the rock to release his deadly mid-range jumper, Malone
would be forced to come out. Unseld would be stuck all alone with
Mikan. Have you ever seen a mouse get caught in a bear trap?
Career: 4-Time NBA Champion, BAA Champion,
2-Time
NBL Champion, BAA Most Valuable Player, NBL Most Valuable Player,
4-Time NBA All-Star, NBA All-Star Most Valuable Player, 8-Time All-NBA
First Team, 50 Greatest Players in NBA History.
1993 - Charles Barkley
- Reserve
Forward - 6'6"
In 1993, “Sir” Charles Barkley
averaged
25.6 points, 12.2 rebounds, and 5.1 assists per game for the Phoenix
Suns. Barkley was so dominant that he went on to win the regular
season MVP award, leading the Suns to an NBA-best 62-20 record season.
He is only the third player ever to win MVP the year after being
traded. Barkley would be coming off my bench late in the second
quarter to close out the half. He has the ability to over-power small
forwards while harassing power forwards at the same time. He would
provide an extra boost of offense for my team while closing out the
second half. Barkley would prove to cause a lot of problems for Bruce
Bowen and/or Lebron James. By the way, what the snap is Bruce Bowen
doing in a 56-player legend league? I’m sorry but that is just plain
ridiculous. Whoever drafted him is obviously living in the present and
didn’t do their research.
Career: NBA Most Valuable Player, 1992 and
1996 Olympic Gold Medalist, 11-Time NBA All-Star, NBA All-Star
Most Valuable Player, 5-Time All-NBA First Team, 5-Time All-NBA Second Team,
50 Greatest Players in NBA History.
2001 - Dikembe Mutombo
- Reserve
Center - 7'2"
Dikembe Mutombo averaged 10 points,
13.5
rebounds, and 2.7 blocks in 2001. Nicknamed "The Cookie
Monster" for the way he talks, if this 4-Time NBA Defensive Player
of the Year catches you with the hand in the cookie jar,
he is going to send it back to sixth row. I guess one could
call his 2001 rebound total a baker's dozen. So what happens when
7'2" Mutombo checks into the game with 6'7" Wes Unseld on the
other side of the ball? Obviously Unseld would need to come out of the
game, but who would back him up at center? Lebron? Bowen?
Lol. Well, I guess Moses Malone would need to rotate down to center
and Garnett would need to play power forward. This would force Garnett
and Malone to play the entire game, making them winded and wearing them
down. Mutombo is the final piece to my puzzle that puts me over the
top in this match-up.
Career: 4-Time NBA Defensive Player of the
Year,
8-Time NBA All-Star, All-NBA Second Team, 3-Time NBA All-Defensive
First Team, 3-Time NBA All-Defensive Second Team.
Some
Facts:
Heroes of the Hardwood
20 Championships 75 All-Star selections 45 All-NBA First
Team
selections 11 All-Star MVP selections 4 Defensive Player of the
Year selections
Purple Cobras
11 Championships 54 All-Star selections 21 All-NBA First
Team
selections 6 All-Star MVP selections 1 Defensive Player of the
Year selections
Final
Thought
Championship experience will prove to be fatal to the Purple
Cobras. Other than Jordan and Bowen, the Purple Cobras are made up of
a bunch of talented players who underachieved and never won anything. Yes I
said it. My team causes match-up problems and yes, I will exploit
them. Cobras are finshed. Done. Spent. Gone. Out of here.
(Sorry guys, I have been swamped at work today
and
wasn't able to put in as much time into this as I thought I
could.)
xphoenix87
And we're on to round two. I'm not going to repost my individual player analysis since that's just a bit redundant, but if you didn't see it earlier, you can check it out here. It's a rather good read, if I do say so myself.
For this matchup, my starting lineup will make a slight change.
PG - John Stockton SG - Michael Jordan SF - Lebron James PF - Kevin Garnett C - Moses Malone
That puts Bruce Bowen and Wes Unseld on the bench.
The projected opposing starting lineup looks like this:
PG - Oscar Robertson SG - John Havlicek SF - Julius Erving PF - Bob Pettit C - George Mikan
With Charles Barkley and Dikembe Mutumbo off the bench.
Well, AK better hope that Oscar can play 48 minutes without getting in foul trouble, cause he doesn't have anyone else to man that point guard slot. It's nice and all to have a guy from each decade, but it's a whole lot nicer to have some lineup flexibility instead of 2 centers and 2 undersized PFs. Better hope that the Big O, Hondo, and Erving can stay out of trouble, cause they've got no backups.
Again in this game, I have a huge rebounding and defensive edge, able to get superior rebounding from 4 spots on the floor, and that's without Unseld, who might be my best rebounder. AK can put in Mutumbo for defense and rebounding, though he has the unfortunate side effect of having absolutely no offensive skills (Bruce Bowen at least has one useful offensive skill). Pettit was a great player who revolutionized the power forward position, but he shot a terrible percentage, and his rebound numbers are much more a factor of his era than anything else. Unseld can be very effective in this matchup because of AK's smaller power forwards who he can match up with and defend and rebound against very effectively. In that same vein, KG's athleticism and height advantage should make him a devastating defensive and rebounding force in this matchup and make his strong midrange game very hard to stop.
Oscar was Magic before Magic, but Jordan is a good enough defender to slow him up. On the other end, there's a reason why they didn't call Oscar "The Big D"...Ok, it's probably because his his named didn't start with "D", but Oscar wasn't exactly famed for his defensive abilities. Outside of Mutumbo, AK doesn't really have anybody to protect the rim, and if Jordan dunked relentlessly over Ewing, I don't see Mutumbo being be much different (and did I mention Mutumbo doesn't play offense?).
With AK's lack of backups at the guard position and his two slow-footed centers, It's a perfect situation to play a fast break running game. I talked before about how deadly this team can be on the break, with Unseld throwing laser beam outlets to Stockton, Lebron, Jordan, and KG. With those 5 out on the floor, you've got a dynamic running lineup of five players who have all averaged over 5 assists per game at some point in their career.
Spidey has a cute little roster of a player for each era and a has cool little team picture with his photoshopping skills, but as far as the actual teams go, he's outclassed. I've got the definitely superior defensive and rebounding team, and a host of offensive mismatches to exploit. Sorry AK, but your run is over.
Actually, The Big "O" was a great defender. He didn't make any All-NBA Defensive Teams because those accolades did not exist back when he played. The same goes for Mikan and Pettit. But if you want, you can say he didn’t play D, it just isn’t true. Read up on it!
Oscar will be running my point all game, and will be looking to dish the rock more so than score. He did lead the league in assists for 8 seasons.
I think the only main advantage you have on me is you drafter more "present day" players, so they are hyped more because we live in the present. Hopefully the judges know their history on this one!
It's like you're just making up facts and hoping people don't check them. Please, point me to something that says Oscar was a great defensive player. Even if they didn't have block statistics or all-defensive teams, the great defensive players of that era had reputations, and defensive prowess is never mentioned alongside the Big O. Just cause you want to believe it doesn't make it true.
I never called Pettit a "slow-footed center", that would be The Cookie Monster who I was referring to. Again, please point me to proof of Mikan's "mean crossover". he wasn't particularly quick for a big man, he was just way bigger and stronger than anyone else in his era.
I'm well aware of who Pettit was, and your Nowitzki comparison is stretching the realms of credibility. He was a versatile and gritty player who worked relentlessly, but the guy shot 43% for his career.
Rebounding advantage? Malone and Garnett vs. Mikan and Pettit? Please, Malone is one of the greatest rebounders of all time, and Garnett is no slouch himself and has a height and length advantage over Pettit.
pf - kg > pettit .. just bigger and stronger .. pettit may have the stats on kg but imo he would be to slow of foot and get pushed around easy .. plus kgs length would bother him big time
c - miken > malone .. by a hair
so now down to the benchs .. cookie monster and barkley vs bruce bown and unseld ... ak def has the bench adv ..
my official vote go's to ak - 47 .. having m.j. and stockton is nice but for me it came down to the benchs .. m.j. would go crazy in this game nobody on ak's team can really guard m.j. but just like jordan befor the 91 season his teammates are not gonna be able to step up .. bron is just to green right now .. yeah he has all the skills but this aint the new age defense he's goin up aginst ( or lack of defense is more like it ) ... and the doctor would eat bron alive the global icon dont excatly play the greatest defense in the world .. and even m.j.'s defense and stocktons wont be able to hide brons lack of playing d
You limited your thinking in the matchups to assuming that just because someone is listed at a position, they have to defend the person in that position on the other side of the ball. Oscar would probably destroy Stockton, but there's no way I would defend him with Stockton instead of MJ, who can put the clamps on as well as any defender in history. On the other end, Hondo isn't near quick enough to hang with MJ, and unless you're playing Mutumbo, you don't have any real rim protectors, so look out below. Garnett might not be as quick and strong as Dr. J was, but Lebron is. Lebron may not be any great shakes at defense, but neither was the doctor. Erving will get his, but so will Lebron. If needed, I can bring in Bowen for Stockton to match up size on the perimeter and let Lebron run the point.
You can brag about those titles all you want, but the fact is that Oscar only won a title late in his career when Kareem carried them there, Havlicek doesn't have any of those titles without Russell, and Erving couldn't win a ring until they brought my man Moses Malone over.
didn't i mention in my analysis that because robertson would abuse stockton, you would need to slide jordan onto him, freeing up hondo to rain BUCKETS
waiting on those rebounding numbers, leaving work now so ill post them for you in an hour if you don't
can't let you say you would kill me in boards and get away with it when that is my teams major strength. look at my PG... pulls down a couple boards shy of your BEST rebounder lol
Pettit, Robertson and Mikan's rebounding numbers were highly inflated by the era they played in. Nobody on your frontline can rebound with Malone and Garnett.
I'll definitely agree on Bowen. However, MJ was the undisputed star of his championship teams, as was Malone, you can also only say that about 2 guys, Mikan and Pettit who, incidentally, won their titles in a much smaller and less competitive version of the league.
i guess i dont understand that how can you have a legends draft and then turn around and dis credit players who have played in diffrent eras thats kind of redundent
GR8 - and if Erving starts to carve me up, I bring Bowen out and let him check the good doctor, giving me 3 exceptional perimeter defenders.
btw, how does Mikan win out over Moses Malone? Seriously, that's just a joke, Malone put up better stats and actually had guys taller than 6'7 guarding him.
it's not dissing them, it's just fact that rebounding statistics were highly inflated in the early NBA due to the much higher quantity of missed shots. It's fact, there's no way Pettit grabs 16 RPG in the modern NBA.
Ok I pointed out your team's flaws last time spidey but people didn't look at it because of your picture.
First, you are bragging about Oscar's physical size but fail to mention that stealing the ball has nothing to do with that. Stockton was actually smart with stealing so you will be losing that ball. Can he also read Stockton's passes? I doubt it because no one talks about him for his D.
Second, Hondo neutrilizing Jordan's offense? Don't make me laugh. Ok, Jordan lost the game against the Celtics when he scored 63 in the playoffs, but if you saw they had 4 people swarming him to stop him. That was for HOFs in their prime against a second year. He kept on hitting the shots.
Lebron and Erving are equal for the fact of how they play.
Petit like he said is a bad shooter already wait until Garnett is on him.
Mikan was only good at goaltending not blocking shots, 2 different things. Also fouling out didn't come until later in time. He had an issue of picking up fouls. I believe his average was 4.3 per game. Basketball-reference.com can show it.
Not good. Malone will get rebounds since it doesn't matter what your height is. Ben Wallace comest to mind.
Bench Barkley and Mutombo. Barkley may be a threat but won't be enough to save you. Mutombo, unlike Shaq, hasn't proven if he as any range with his shot. Ok people may look at me crazy but Shaq has made shots from different distance, not alot but has. Mutombo isn't. The guys is also a slowpoke. If you want to make him effective make him camp under the basket.
My vote goes to Phoenix who has a huge advantage here.
Do I have to pick a winner?? Dam, this is tough. Im sure everybody knows Ive got a man crush on KG but I will try to stay unbiased. I love Dr. J and the Big O, and they both get the edge at their positions. KG gets the edge at PF. Moses vs Mikan is interesting. Mikan would get his pts but Moses wouldnt let him get a sniff of a rebound, and Moses would rough him up. I give the slight edge of C to Moses becuz Mikan didnt have any competition when he played, so his stats dont mean much to me. I strongly believe that good D beats good O, and with Jordan, Stockton, Garnett, and Unseld, AK will not get very many easy buckets even with Oscar running the show. Oscar's 38 pts, 17 assists,& 12 boards arent enough as xphoenix wins 155-150.
GR8 - what it means is that you have to understand that you can't just compare their statistics with those of modern players. You have to realize that they're going to have better statistics simply by virtue of the era they played in. It doesn't mean they weren't good players, it means you have to compensate when analyzing their statistics.
dehbashi - "Malone will get rebounds since it doesn't matter what your height is."
you do realize that Moses was 6'10 with long arms, right? He wasn't particularly undersized.
"Havlicek would have a tough match-up against Michael Jordan, who is arguably the best basketball player in NBA history. Being one of the premiere defenders in the league, he would have a slight advantage at containing Jordan. Havlicek would neutralize Jordan’s offense, while at the same time Jordan would neutralize Havlicek’s." - Lil' Spidey
like somebody said befor this isnt a video game .. youre not playin these games on a PS3 or somethin .. mj is near or at the top of every G.O.A.T. disscusions but he was also a basketball player just like all the other players in this tourney he could be stopped .. having m.j. on youre team dont mean you automatically win in this tourney .. playing some type of zone defense and quick traps while still rotating to cover your own man could ceartinly at least slow m.j. down
Again, my apologies for not giving a more detailed list for my reasons but there's just too many damn things to vote in and frankly I don't feel like it.
AK gets the nod for the PG position. Oscar gives Stockton serious fits and if Jordan is put on him I still see him having a good offensive game. He also gets the nod for his bench with Phoenix's bench being borderline useless on the offensive end aside from whatever Unseld can get near the basket and the threes phoenix keeps telling us Bowen is good for.
phoenix takes the cake on everything else: SF, SG, PF, and C. Bonus points for moving Lebron to the starting lineup to match up with Dr. J offensively at the very least.
My official vote goes to phoenix.
Last edited by lakersfan19 on July 24th at 3:35 PM.
GR8 and dehbashi - I'm counting your votes, but please try to put them in the proper form so it's easier for me to read when I go back over it. I'm looking for what Coach_Mac or lakersfan did, a separate line that clearly states the vote. It's not hard to do, and it makes it easier for me when I'm counting up votes. Thanks.
I'm not crazy about either one of these teams. Oscar Robertson was good, but his out-of-this-world numbers were more a reflection of his era and not his skills.
If guys like Magic, Pippen, McGrady, Kidd, Grant Hill, etc., were playing in the early 60's, they would have all put up triple double averages. Back then guys played 48 minutes a game. There was less traveling. There were no "specialists." The league had like ten teams so guys routinely beat up on one another. Only after 1965, did the NBA start to resemble basketball as we know it today. Before that, people put up WACKY numbers. I don't read much into those numbers.
Robertson was good, but it's hard to compare him with a player from today. And how would lesser athletes from the 60's compete against machines from the 90's and up? How could George Mikan hold Moses Malone? He couldn't.
I'll say Mikan was greater in his day, than Moses was in his, but if these two squared off today it would be a joke. Moses would kill him.
LeBron is so wet behind the ears. If it weren't for fantasy sports, KG would be revealed as what he is - one of the most overrated players in sports history. Bowen shouldn't even be on a team. It's literally Jordan, Moses and Stockton versus a bunch of prehistoric guys, Barkley, Mutombo and Dr. J.
Trainontheball- You stated that KG is "one of the most overrated players in sports history"
I am a Twolves fan and a KG worshipper, but I want to understand your thought on that. To make a statement like that requires some hard evidence. Hes in the top 30 all time in rebounds and hes got many seasons left. He averaged 20-10-5 for 6 straight seasons. The only other guys to do that are the Big O and Larry Bird. He owns a league MVP and an Allstar MVP. While in High School KG won Mr.Basketball....Twice! With that said, Im not going to blame you just because your computer confused overrated with consistent. Ill let this one slide.
1964 - Oscar Robertson -
Point
Guard - 6'5"
1974 - John Havlicek - Shooting
Guard -
6'5"
1981 - Julius Erving - Small
Forward - 6'7"
1956 - Bob Pettit - Power
Forward -
6'9"
1949 - George Mikan - Center -
6'11"
1993 - Charles Barkley
- Reserve
Forward - 6'6" 
2001 - Dikembe Mutombo
- Reserve
Center - 7'2"
