Well, before I tell you why my team is vastly superior to genez's (and make no mistake, it is), I would like to introduce you to my players. So, without further ado, xphoenix87's...
Purple Cobras (Thanks to our sponsor, Globo Gym. "At Globo Gym, we're better than you, and we know it.")
Starting Lineup
Point Guard - John Stockton: The greatest pick-and-roll guard of all time, it's not even debatable. Stockton may have lacked flash, and he may have worn the shortest shorts of all time, but he was the most fundamentally sound guard the league has ever seen. He was an 11-time All-NBA team member, 5-time All-Defensive team member, 10-time All-Star, and 2-time Olympic gold medalist. Stockton used his toughness, savvy, and uncanny court vision to set standards in assists and steals that may never be touched. Consider this, Stockton's 15,806 assists gives him 5,483 more than Mark Jackson in second place. To put that in perspective, only 33 players in NBA history have 5,483 assists in their entire careers. There are nine 1000+ assist seasons in NBA history, Stockton has seven of them. He's also the career leader in steals, with his 3,265 putting him over 700 steals in front of Michael Jordan in second place. To cite the Wikipedia article on Stockton...
"To put Stockton's statistical dominance in perspective, there are only
four other players in NBA history who have logged more than half of Stockton's career totals in both assists and steals: Magic Johnson, Gary Payton, Isiah Thomas, and Jason Kidd. There is no player in league history who has more than 60% of Stockton's career totals in both of these categories."
Stockton's best year is obviously 89-90, which might be the finest point guard year of all time. He averaged 17.2 PPG, 14.5 APG (an NBA record), and 2.65 SPG while shooting 51.4% from the floor, 41.6% from the 3PT line, and 81.9% from the free throw line.
Video: It's long, but it's worth it. The highlights are the one-handed full court outlet pass straight off a rebound, and the masterful pick and roll against the Clippers at around the 5 minute mark.
“He (Stockton) is the NBA player I enjoy watching the most, and the only one I would pay to see.” - John Wooden
Shooting Guard - Michael Jordan: The Greatest. I'm not going to bother putting the stats and awards here, cause frankly you probably know them anyway. The league has never had a more competitive player, and if you needed a game-winning shot you would pick Jordan every time. It's not even a debate; if you asked 1000 NBA fans, 1000 of them would have MJ shooting the final shot in a close game. Completely unguardable, and a terror on the defensive end.
It's nearly impossible to pick a prime year for MJ. His game changed, but he was consistently brilliant. For my money, I'll take his 92-93 year, when he was still near his athletic prime, but had developed a perimeter jumper and had learned when to take games over. He averaged 32.6 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 5.5 APG, and 2.8 SPG while shooting 49.5% from the floor, 35.2% from the 3PT line, and 83.7% from the free throw line.
Video: Great video of MJ going for a playoff-record 63 against the Celtics. Watch how many times he ends up finishing through 4 or 5 defenders.
“I think he’s God disguised as Michael Jordan.” -Larry Bird
Small Forward - Kevin Garnett: Few players in NBA history have been as versatile as KG has. A 6'11 player with guard skills and a terrific rebounding edge, he's truly a unique talent. He's an 8-time All-NBA team member, 8-time All-Defensive team member, 10-time All-Star, league MVP, All-Star game MVP, and 4-time league leader in RPG. In addition to that, reports from when he was on the 2000 Olympic team said that he was the only player who beat everyone else when they played 1-on-1 in practice, and this was a team with Ray Allen, Vince Carter, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, Tim Hardaway and Alonzo Mourning.
KG's best year would have to be his MVP year of 03-04, when he posted career highs of 24.2 PPG, 13.9 RPG, and 2.2 BLG to go along with 5 APG and 1.5 SPG while shooting 49.9% from the field and 79.1% from the free throw line.
Video: Pretty standard highlight video, it still blows me away some of the rebounds he gets to.
"Who would have ever thought that a high school
player would come in and change everything? But here was Kevin Garnett,
who came from nothing and all of a sudden has become as great a player
as there is," -Bill Walton
Power Forward - Moses Malone: The greatest offensive rebounder of all time, bar none. He had uncanny positioning and sheer determination to get every board. Nobody was better at tipping the ball either to themselves or into the basket. He was an NBA champion, 3-time MVP, 8-time All-NBA team member, 2-time All-Defensive team member, and 12-time All-Star. Since they started keeping the stat in 73-74, Malone is the all-time leading offensive rebounder with 6,731, he's also 3rd in total rebounds and 2nd in free throws made. Despite his relentless approach, Malone stayed out of foul trouble, and went without disqualification in his last 1,212 games, an NBA record.
Malone's best year was probably 78-79, where he averaged 24.8 PPG, 17.6 RPG (7.2 OFF RPG!), and 1.5 BPG while shooting 54% from the floor and 73.9% from the free throw line.
Video: He's a stunningly good offensive rebounder. Watch how often he uses one hand to tip it either into the basket or too himself.
Center - Wes Unseld:
"As a player, Wes Unseld seemed to have been chiseled from a block of
granite, with a stoic demeanor and an iron resolve to win. A 6-7 bull
of a center, he forged his reputation on relentless rebounding,
bone-jarring picks, and laser-beam outlet passes. He did all the
unspectacular things that led to glamorous victories." -NBA.com
When Wes Unseld came into the league, he averaged 13.8 PPG and 18.2 RPG and was named the MVP. His scoring average wasn't impressive, and he didn't even lead the league in rebounding, so why did he win the award? Simply put, Wes Unseld won games. The year before he arrived, the Bullets won 36 games. In Unseld's rookie year, they won 57. He didn't garner a lot of awards outside of that MVP trophy, but he did what needed to be done. With 270 pounds packed onto his 6'7 frame, Unseld was one of the strongest players ever to play in the league. He used his considerable #### to set crushing screens, and used his strength and unusually long arms to carve out incredible rebounding numbers against much bigger players. Unseld's greatest gift, however, was probably his ability to throw the outlet pass, which he did better than anyone in the NBA. There's a reason they're calling Kevin Love the best outlet passer since Wes Unseld, cause Unseld was simply the best at it.
Unseld's best year was probably 72-73, when he averaged 12.5 PPG, 15.9 RPG, and 4.4 APG while shooting 49.3% from the field and 70.3% from the free throw line.
Video: This is a short little clip, cause you can't find many Wes Unseld clips on the web, but it's interesting to see. Watch how easily he moves the bigger Kareem out of position and then outjumps him for the rebound.
"I know that night in and night out the guy I play against will have more physical ability, but I feel like if I go out against a guy and play him 40 or 48
minutes a game or whatever, toe to toe, head to head, he is going to
get tired or beat up or bored for two or three minutes. That will be
enough to make sure he doesn't win the game for his team." -Wes Unseld
Bench
G/F - Lebron James: Every now and then, a highly-touted player actually lives up the hype, and it's a beautiful thing. Even rarer are the times when that player absolutely blows the hype out of the water, and it's pretty clear that Lebron James is a rare bird indeed. Coming straight out of high school, he joined Jordan and Oscar Robertson as the only rookies to average 20-5-5. In 4 years, he's been named to 3 All-NBA teams, been on 3 All-Star teams, won All-Star MVP, and finished 2nd in MVP voting. Before he got there, Cleveland won 17 games. In Lebron's rookie season, they won 35. They then proceeded to improve, winning 42 and 50 games, then culminating in this last year when they won 50 games and went to the NBA Finals on the back of Lebron's amazing performance in the Eastern conference finals (he's the only player to score 25 straight points in a playoff game). His combination of quickness, strength, and leaping ability make him almost impossible to cover one-on-one, and his uncanny passing ability makes him even harder to double team.
King James' best season would have to be his second one, where he averaged 27.2 PPG, 7.4 RPG, 7.2 APG and 2.2 SPG while shooting 47.2% from the field, 35.1% from the 3PT line, and 75% from the free throw line.
Video: Again, pretty standard highlight film stuff, lots of dunks. Some really pretty passes in here though, and it shows just how dangerous he is in the open court.
“He breaks you
down because he is such a great player.” -Michael Jordan
“I fantasize
about LeBron's ability. He is the best player I have ever seen at this
age.” -Rick Barry
F - Bruce Bowen: I caught all kinds of flack for this pick, but I'm ok with that. There are very few players that offer Bowen's combination of championship experience, shooting touch from the perimeter, and defensive ability. He's been voted to 7 NBA All-Defensive teams, finished 2nd in voting for Defensive Player of the Year 3 times, and is a 38.8% 3PT shooter, and that's good enough for me. He's annoying, an irritant, and that's just what I want. I want him to get under the superstars' skins and get them off their game. You think Rick Barry is going to keep his composure with Bruce Bowen on him? Please.
The year for Bowen doesn't really matter, anywhere in the last 3-4 years would yield basically the same result; a physical defensive presence and 40% 3PT shooter.
Video: You don't really need a video for him, but I'll do it for continuity's sake. He plays defense, shoots 3s from the corner, and people get mad at him, that's all you need to know.
So, on to my opponent. I assume his lineup will look something like this.
Starters PG - Magic Johnson SG - Allen Iverson SF - Rick Barry PF - Karl Malone C - Shaquille O'Neal
Bench G - Pete Maravich C - Patrick Ewing
Very strong team, I won't deny it. Getting Shaq as late as he did was a coup. Luckily though, I match up extraordinarily well with this team.
Obviously, the first thing to address is Shaq. If you can't stop Shaq, you might as well quit now. Well, Shaq in his prime was absolutely unstoppable near the rim. I remember watching those Lakers playoff runs, and any time he caught the ball with a foot in the paint, he scored. You didn't block Shaq, period. So, how do you deal with the big man?
1) Keep him from catching in the lane. Luckily, I have Wes Unseld, one of the few players who is even in the same area code as Shaq as far as strength goes. Unseld didn't block a lot of shots at 6'7, but that's not what I'm looking for, we've already said we're not going to be blocking Shaq. What he did do was keep opposing bigs from getting position, and he did it well. Now, I'm not saying he can keep Shaq off the blocks every time, but I'm saying he can give him a legitimate fight, and maybe get under the big man's skin a little bit. If Shaq can't catch in the lane, he's very limited, since his game outside of short range was pretty poor.
2) Harass the opposing guards. If Shaq can't get the ball, he can't score. In this category, you can't beat Stockton and Jordan, the two all-time leaders in steals. Both are ball hawks who can pester opposing guards into turnovers and make it hard for them to feed the post. In addition, there was nobody better than Stockton at sneaking down on big men to knock the ball away from them.
3) Abuse Shaq on the pick and roll. As good as he was, even in his prime the Diesel didn't defend the pick and roll, and there is nobody better than Stockton to take advantage of that. With Unseld and Malone (whoever Shaq guards) setting huge, widebody screens for Stockton, they'll be forced to let Stockton abuse O'Neal on the pick and roll, or sub him out for Ewing, who is much less of a threat.
4) Fast break like crazy. The more you make Shaq run and the more you can neutralize him by beating him down the court, the better off you'll be. To that end, I've got 3 great rebounders (Malone, Unseld, Garnett), the best outlet passer ever, Lebron and MJ, who are both incredibly scary on the break, and a great point guard in Stockton. I can put a team out on the floor (Unseld, Garnett, Lebron, Jordan, Stockton) with all player who have averaged more than 5 assists at least once in their career. Think the Phoenix Suns' fast break, but with better wing scorers. To this effect, the mix of Magic and Shaq doesn't seem to work, with Magic's strength being in the break and Shaq being anything but a fast break player.
As for the rest of the team, Magic will get his on the break and he'll create opportunities for others, but I'm pretty confident with Jordan or Bowen checking him. Iverson isn't a particularly efficient scorer, and Stockton is a good enough defender to give him plenty of trouble. Neither Magic nor Iverson are good shooters, so Stockton and Jordan can feel free to drift down and help on Shaq. I can get away with playing KG at SF because Barry isn't quick enough to take advantage of it, while Garnett's huge reach should make it almost impossible for him to get a shot off.
On the other end of the court, who covers Jordan? Is there anyone on that team that can even come close to checking him? Magic? Pistol? Barry? None of them are quick enough. Iverson? Jordan would just abuse him in the post. It doesn't help that genez's backup enforcer of a center (Ewing) is someone Jordan dunked on relentlessly. Lebron will be be much the same, there's nobody near strong enough on that team to keep him out of the lane. Shaq might be able to protect the rim some, but he was never great at consistently blocking shots without fouling, and especially not against finishers like Jordan and James. By the way, you know how brutal it was to have Rodman getting Jordan all those second-chance points? Now imagine replacing Rodman with Moses Malone.
Also, who guards Garnett? He's way too much in the post for Barry to handle in the post.
My team has the versatility to match any lineup genez can throw out there, and no one on his team can match Jordan. If Jordan could go for 63 against Dennis Johnson and Danny Ainge with McHale and Parish in the post, what is he going to do against the matador defense of Pistol Pete and Rick Barry? Remember, if you think the game would be close (which I don't think it would be), would you bet against Jordan?
genez13
Firstly, good job to yesterday’s opponents, who had to go
first and prompted a very important question about the structure of the
arguments. The winner has yet to be
chosen, but congratulations to both.
10 championships, 7 MVP’s, 58 all-star appearances, 39
All-NBA 1st Team selections, 17 All-NBA 2nd Team
selections, 7 Finals MVP’s, 7 all-star game MVP’s, 5 NBA ROY awards
Ewing could substitute for Malone in a defensive, TWIN TOWERS
look (what do you think, Hoff?), or Maravich could be substituted for Iverson
in (believe it or not) a more offensively high-powered lineup.
I think it is safe to say that the three most dominant
players in the last 30 years are playing in this game (Shaq, Magic, MJ). There are also proven clutch performers (MJ,
AI, Magic). However, I want to make sure
this is clearly understood by all readers and voters: this is not a video game. The team with MJ does not automatically win
every time. He is the best ever, but he
is not a cheat, at least not in this tournament.
That being said, it’s time for strategy. The offense can obviously flow through any
player, as is and should be the case with most Legend teams (except maybe for
my opponent, what with Unseld and Bowen).
The most likely places for this in this particular match up would be from
Shaq and Magic. Shaq would exploit the
lack of a true center on the opponent’s roster, save Unseld, who would be
forced to operate with a severe size (7-2 vs. 6-7) and strength
disadvantage. Unseld is known for being
a defensive presence, but he would stand no chance against Chamberneezy, even
with the intimidating afro. The team has
two other prolific post scorers in Malone and Ewing,
who would also prove to be mismatches against the likes of Unseld, (Moses)
Malone, and KG. As for Magic, he would
exploit another size mismatch against the 6-1 Stockton, utilizing his exceptional low-post
game for his position. Of course, were
these obvious advantages not available, my team boasts two of the best
individual scorers in the game’s history.
While Johnson can create for his teammates with the greatest PG’s,
Maravich can do the same and also create his own shot with the best
scorers. This ability is also undeniable
in Iverson’s game, as he is an elite scorer in his age as well. There are some excellent defenders on the
opposing team, but Maravich and Iverson have faced the best and always come out
with their share. My point is that if
all else fails, these two players will get you points in bunches regardless. The deep ball, should Shaq or Magic decide to
kick out of a double team, would come from Barry and Maravich.
When it comes to defense, the TWIN TOWERS
would erase any conceivable low-post game from this opposing lineup. As for perimeter defense, Iverson is a
merciless annoyance who always ends up with the steal, and Rick Barry is one of
the most intelligent and heady defenders ever (well, he was quite crafty on
offense as well, to be fair). Oh yes,
and Magic is 6-9 with cat-like agility.
Try shooting over that.
On the hole, the offense of this team would seriously overpower
the defense of the opposition, particularly in the post. And this isn’t an insignificant side note:
the opposing lineup is certainly one more suited to defense than offense. It has many holes on the offensive end, and
the lack of a big, dominant center would kill this team on both ends against
Shaq and Ewing.
And, as apparently is the custom, I must take my one
cheap-shot at my opponent. Here
goes. Ladies and gentlemen, presenting the
greatest player in the history of basketball, His Airness, Mr. Michael
Jordan!!!
Damn it if I was only able to persuade more oh well. Spidey won fair and square.
I deserved to lose. I fell asleep in the middle of the round.
It's better that way. I can vote now.
I'd definitely pay to see this one. Gotta say I don't see anyone on genez's team who can come close to covering MJ. I see an up tempo game, somewhat neutralizing Shaq, the only clear advantage for genez. Magic needs to push it to be most effective, he would fit better with xphoenix's team. To me the point guards are mismatched for the rest of the teams. Maybe you guys could make a trade.
It would reunite Stockton and Malone, but it might well make the Cobras unbeatable.
It will be close but I will have to give my vote for phoenix. Don't worry genez I'm not looking from Jordan on this. The only 2 I can look at serious and believe they will have zero problems will be Rick and Magic. AI ballhogs too much and isn't a reliable shooter as everyone believes. Ok with Ewing I have to look at Jordan since Jordan owned that guy so many times I can't remember. Unless Shaq can hit that 3 like he did while in Orlando, he has to be close to score. Pistol Pete, I don't why, but I just doubt he can do great here.
Also, Karl Malone, I wouldn't have a problem normally. The reason why is the game ends at 9:00 AM SUNDAY. Remember as Scottie Pippen had said, "The mailman doesn't deliver on Sundays."
well, I'll take a break from reading my recently acquired Harry Potter book, and make a response to genez's argument.
"The team has two other prolific post scorers in Malone and Ewing, who would also prove to be mismatches against the likes of Unseld, (Moses) Malone, and KG. As for Magic, he would exploit another size mismatch against the 6-1 Stockton, utilizing his exceptional low-post game for his position."
Since when was Moses vs. Ewing a mismatch? Ewing was never a particularly strong offensive force, and he's not near the rebounder that Moses was. KG vs. Malone? I wouldn't exactly call that a mismatch. Malone has a distinct strength advantage, but KG's quickness, length and defensive prowess are enough to bother him. On the other end, Malone was never a great defender, and there's no way he can hang with KG's turnaround game in the post/midrange area.
You think I'd actually be using Stockton to guard Johnson? You're thinking too positionally. The advantage of you using Iverson is that I can easily put Stockton on him and switch Jordan over to Magic. Alternately, I could put Jordan on Barry and use KG on Magic, much like the Bulls used Pippen to greatly reduce Magic's effectiveness in the 90-91 Finals.
Last edited by xphoenix87 on July 21st at 8:48 AM.
As for Iverson and Maravich, sure they're good scorers, but they both shot terrible percentages for guys who took such a large volume of shots, and you've only got one ball to go around to each of these amazing individual scorers. Between Magic, Iverson, Pistol and Shaq, you've got 4 players who need the ball in their hands to be effective. I may not have 5 elite scorers, but I've got rebounders and defenders, and enough scorers to get by on.
By the way, Iverson's defensive ability is highly overrated. He made his living by gambling on basing lanes to get steals, not by exceptional on-the-ball defense. That gambling might work with most teams, but if you try to overplay with Stockton on the floor, we'll be backdooring the #### out of him.
ya...Kg hassels magic, bowen shuts down AI or Maravich, jordan shutsdown barry..it doesnt matter what lineups are out there. Moses and Unseld can foul the #### out of shaq and he can go shoot his 50% freethrows. phoenix has a disgusting defensive lineup. Seriously, I cant imagine trying to score against jordan, stockton, garnett, unseld and bowen. Id !@#$ myself. My official vote goes to xphoenix. Box Score says 135-112
Alright.... I missed yesterday's vote, but my pre-tourney prediction was AK so I'm good with it.
I had most of the starters tabbed for this matchup, except for LeBron in for KG, looking to fill the lanes on the break and knowing that the boards would be almost guaranteed with Unseld and Moses. I also had Pistol Pete starting over AI, but it's all good.
Let me start by saying that Phoenix is my pick to win it all... that being said, I liked the way he presented his arguments. Career averages may get you Legendary status, but now we are dealing with each players prime. And in their prime, this team has the most balance I have seen. Scorers, defenders, rebounders, and passers... they have it all. The main reason MJ is the greatest ever isn't just his scoring or winning 6 rings... has anyone thought that if he never crossed to the offensive side of half-court, he could still dictate the game from a defensive standpoint? Then you add Unseld, KG, Stockten & Bowen, making this the most dominate defensive squad in the tourney.
So to this matchup in particular... Shaq and Ewing does little to alter shots defensively, because they are on the perimeter guarding the pick and roll, plus they have their hands full just trying to keep Moses and Unseld from getting every O-board. This in and of itself causes Shaq to slow down offensively giving the Purple Cobras the low post edge....
next post....
Last edited by Coach_Mac on July 21st at 12:31 PM.
The worst part of the previous analysis is this... Shaq is the only place genez has a chance in this game. At the forwards, the Mailman and Barry are out-muscled by Moses, out-quicked by KG, and god-fobid LeBron plays 3 and out-muscles AND out-quicks them...
So finally, to the guards... everyone is looking for the next MJ (never happen) and that seems to be a logical search. But we will come closer to seeing another MJ, than another Magic or for that matter another Charles Barkley. These two men were so out-of-the-norm that you couldn't engineer one with all the DNA research funding in the world. And if genez was playing anyone other than the Purple Cobras, with MJ AND Stockten AND LeBron AND Bowen, I would give the edge to Magic almost by himself. But the biggest hinderance to Magic being Magic on this team is the fact that, unless you played Magic, Pistol Pete, AI, & the Mailman all at the same time, you don't have a line-up that allows the Maestro of Showtime to really shine. Advantage Purple Cobras.
Since everyone seems to want a point spread (including certain NBA refs, ahem), I'll give us a surprising one. The unthinkable actually happens in a Legends game, the Purple Cobras hold their opponents to under 100 points winning, 118-93.
My official vote goes to phoenix and the Purple Cobras!!!
On a side note... loved the pic of MJ, genez!!! LMAO
Last edited by Coach_Mac on July 21st at 12:28 PM.
I only have about two minutes to read everything written here and respond.
Whoever it was that said Bowen would shut down AI or Pistol Pete, that's absolutely ridiculous. If it was the same person who said that AI's defense was overrated, you have serevely misplaced you judgement. Bowen is the remarkably overrated defender. That certainly is the only thing he does well, but we're talking about to elite players versus a career role player. I cannot honestly believe that anyone would think that Bowen could play with anyu of these guys. That's absurd.
Next, wearing out Shaq does not win the game. Someone said an uptempo game wins it by neutralizing Shaq. ####. An uptempo game plays perfectly to everyone else on the team save Ewing, and at the same time takes away this supposedly unstopable defense that the oppenent presents. They have good defensive players... IN THE HALF COURT!!! Seriously, a great defense is one that works from a half-court set. That is the biggest advantage of my opponent, as I said in my arguement, but playing a uptempo fast break game, as everyone also calls an advantage for them, completely nullifies their great defense!!! Notice the contradiction?
I've got to go, but I hope I can be back later.
Oh, and shame on whoever voted before I made a singal post. Honestly, no chance for rebuttal?
I never said that Bowen would shut AI or Pistol Pete down, but there's no doubt that he would be able to give them some trouble. By the way, those two elite scorers? Combined, they have 1 season of shooting over 46%, and that would be Iverson's 46.1% shooting in his 2nd year. The Answer and Pistol have 42% and 44% career shooting percentages respectively.
In respect to Iverson being an overrated defender, his 0 All-Defensive team selections despite 3 times being the league leader in steals points to me being correct.
Please, tell me exactly how an uptempo game favors your team which has no athletic wing scorers and depends heavily on one of the slowest players ever to play the game.
So, because my team can fast break, it can't play defense? Does that make any sense at all?
Okay. Let's imagine that Shaq is pulled because he can't run with this team (keeping in mind this is not the Shaq of the Miami Heat, but of the Magic and Lakers). The lineup is changed to Malone, Barry, Magic, Maravich, and Iverson. Where is the weakness in this team playing an uptempo game? Maravich and Magic are famous for running the break and creating for their teammates. Malone, Barry, and Iverson can all run with Moses, Garnett, and Unseld. But, this is assuming that Shaq has been "neutralized". If taking Shaq out o####ame was as easy as running the break consistently, how in the hell did he become one of the greatest, most dominant players ever?!?!?!?! It's not that simple!! Yes, Shaq is slower than most players. Does this mean this team could not stop a break or get Shaq the ball on offense? No!! And if they got some points running the break, does that take Shaq's points away from the easy job he'll have against Unseld? No!!
In fact, points would not be a problem at all. Since when does shooting in the low-mid 40's in FG% mean you aren't an elite scorer? Let's look at some other's and their career FG%, shall we?
Jerry West- 47%
MJ- 49%
Elgin Baylor- 43%
Kobe- 45%
'Nique- 46%
Vince Carter- 44%
Shooting 42-48% for a big man for your career would be a problem, but otherwise, AI's and Maravich's #'s seem quite common. And Bruce Bowen will not give them anything they can't adapt to a beat within the span o####ame. Bowen is a solid defender in a league that plays no defense, which is why his abilities are so overrated and overvalued. Iverso
I think this is how it went from the cut-off:
Iverson and Maravich rank 3rd and 16th all-time in career scoring average respectively, and they didn't earn those rankings by "getting trouble" from guys like Bruce Bowen. I can't emphasize enough how ridiculous it is to even mention Bowen's name in the same sentence as anyone else in this tournament, unless said sentence includes the phrase "completely different league" somewhere. With Shaq and Malone (6th and 10th all-time career scoring average) on the block in the half-court set and Pistol Pete, AI, and Magic on the wing, this offense is unstoppable, especially since they can run the break as I discussed earlier.
oh yes, and someone said that the "hack-a-shq" method could be utilized. Let's be realistic. This was hardly ever effective during Shaq's career because teams would run out of bodies to foul him with (a testement to his true stamina), and that was when his opponents had twelve players. Not seven. Honestly, what is this, the summer league?
oh yes, and someone said that the "hack-a-shq" method could be utilized. Let's be realistic. This was hardly ever effective during Shaq's career because teams would run out of bodies to foul him with (a testement to his true stamina), and that was when his opponents had twelve players. Not seven. Honestly, what is this, the summer league?
I agree that Bowen is completely overrated in a game like this, but I also think that AI gives up too much on D and gets seriously abused in a game like this.
I think I have everything else sorted out, but I'll have my vote once I get an idea of who exactly is sticking Magic in this game.
o #### u guys make me want to get in this. seriously email me or something you guys do this again. this looks like fun.
yargy_yarg@hotmail.com
as for my vote. well lets see...
very difficult considering you outstrip him totally in SG and SF but he beats you in C and PG. but then his benched players look better so ima have to give it to genez. and its true, even if u go uptempo, genez's team can run very good. i saw the mailman hustling down the court like flash in his final year. i wonder how fast he was before....
Way to ignore every other point I made about neutralizing Shaq. If you don't want to acknowledge Shaq's deficiencies running the break (yes, I rembemer this is the dominant LA version of Shaq, and no, he couldn't run the break or defend the pick and roll either), lets address the pick and roll situation. Is there any way you can possibly guard Stockton running high pick and rolls with whoever Shaq is guarding? How about the fact that out of any player in the history of the league, Unseld might be the best equipped to give Shaq trouble?
Of course you're going to bash on Bowen, since your team is constructed of simply the best scorers you could get, with no respect for how all the parts fit together. You also get to use the tactic of "he's a modern player so is obviously inferior", which is complete garbage. There's never been more talent in the league than there is now (it's diluted because of expansion, but it's there), and Bowen has been effective against Lebron and Kobe, who is the greatest scorer of the modern age, if not of all time. You're probably just bitter that Bruce Bowen has more First Team All-Defense awards than your entire team put together. Just because you decided to put together a team full of selfish, ball-dominating scorers that don't play defense doesn't mean that players who actually play defense are inferior.
You keep citing all these scoring statistics, but Magic, Pistol, and AI all needed to dominate the ball to be effective, how do you work things out between the three of them, and between AI and Pistol launching up shot attempts, who gets the ball to Shaq? Remind me again how many rings Iverson, Maravich, and Malone have for those gaudy scoring averages? Let me remind you, it's less rings than Bruce Bowen has. Also, don't think you're going to be getting a lot of second chance opportunities for those high-volume shooters, Unseld, Malone and Garnett owns the boards.
lakersfan - It would depend on the lineups on the floor, but it would typically be Jordan, Garnett, or Bowen on occasion, maybe with Lebron getting a few shots at him now and then.
Sorry that I've got so much going on but I will read everyone's GM arguments. It may happen at obscure hours but I will get to them. This includes AK's and dehbashi's from Game 1.
Please know that I'm very impressed with everything I've seen at first glance.
dehbashi - you picked a great squad. Unfortunately, the matchups were not in your favor. It took me a lot of thought to make a decision on kast game's winner. Against most of the other teams in this tourney, you may have won.
Don't worry about it. I could have done persuading. Actually when I was out today, I hit myself in the head for being stupid. What happened was this, I was planning to take a nap but slept for 14 hours. That's how tired I've been because of FoxSports. I fell asleep but I didn't realize some of the ways to persuade until maybe a few hours ago. When the next round comes, I'll open my mouth and say them.
Phoenix, you're starting to hurt my feelings here. I tried my very best to piece this team together, but don't channel your frustration with your limited scoring options to me. Picking the greatest of all time will always undoubtedly result in players with lots of points, mostly because if they were really one of the best 56 players, they would certainly have scored their share along the way. How many great basketball players do you know of that had only one area of expertise that made them good enough to qualify for this tournament? (hint: Bruce Bowen is not one of them) I'm not bashing Bowen because he's a current player, I'm calling him out for being an overrated piece on a great team.
And I already conceded that Shaq isn't the most agile player in this game; there's no need to rub it in! All I'm saying is that if "neutralizing" Shaq were as easy as pushing tempo or executing a P&R, then he would not be able to hold down a roster spot in this league, much less become widely regarded as the most dominant player of all time. And again, if Shaq were on the bench, this team can run n' gun without the TWIN TOWERS.
Now when it comes to these guys needing the ball, you answered your own question. When you've got guys like Pistol Pete and Magic who can throw the ball from any point on the floor to any other point regardless of which way they are looking, you have to worry about every man at all times. That is the advantage of having all these scorers: they don't need to start with the ball, they can just sit tight because the two most exciting passers ever to touch a basketball are on the court with them. If some of your players are "defensive specialists", you lose this advantage.
And I wouldn't bring up rings in the locker room over there. My boy Karl missed out on them for the same reason your boy Stockton did, and that reason is your starting 2-guard. Talk about chemisty issues. I'd contact a sports psychologist.
Let's look at the strengths/wekanesses for each team in these matchups.
xphoenix87 (loses 5 points for biting a cheesy team name from a great flick)
Unseld's job will be to pull rebounds a make passes. He gets nothing offensively against Shaq. He may get some looks against Ewing, but Pat will be just waiting for Wes's release so that he can send the ball into the stands.
Moses Malone will also be in for boards. Not much offense in the front court. He'll have many shoving matches with the other Malone, even winning some of the battles. I hope the ref holds the whistle so that we can see these juggernauts go at it.
Why is Garnett at SF? He makes his money playing 1-on-1 in the post. His length would give Karl Malone trouble in the post. With him at the 3, the Cobras are playing 2 non-scoring rebounders at 4 and 5. Pulling either of them away from the hoop to let KG post up makes them worthless offensively. Now, for the matchup. Rick Barry will confuse and frustrate KG to start, but once he gets past the jitters and fear of who Barry is, KG will get into his groove and get buckets.
Stockton will control the flow of the offense. Expect many pick and rolls with Kevin Garnett or Moses Malone. Due to his pass-first mentality, I expect Iverson to defend him. As long as Stockton doesn't get sloppy with the ball and watches Iverson closely, he will have his way on the floor.
Last edited by Mr_Showtime on July 21st at 7:52 PM.
Jordan would be guarded by Magic and will get to the hoop at will. WHen he doesn't feel like taking his chances with SHaq (history has proven that he's not afraid to drive on Ewing), he'll shake Magic and drill 15-footers like he's pitching a shoe ad.
Bowen shouldn't even be here. His defense would be helpful at the 3, but I expect Maravich to make him look like a fool. The lack of backcourt defense on genez's team could lead to some open threes for Bowen.
LeBron should be the starting SF. Barry would give him troubles, but his athletecism would eventually overtake Rick and his ability to get to the hoop would draw double-teams, leaving shooters (MJ, Stock) open.
genez13 (loses 5 points for not having a team name)
Magic will be gaurded by Jordan. This is the kind of matchup that fills the seats. Will Magic's flash and ball-handling confuse His Airness? Will Jordan's lockdown defense put Magic in a stupor? Tune in to find out. We know that Magic will have no problem distributing the ball, even with MJ all over him. Good luck getting a shot off in the perimeter. Magic's only chance is to post Jordan up and use his body.
Iverson's crossover is a thing of legend. He's stumped some of the league's best defenders with this move. There's no chance that he get's past Stockton in his prime. Stockton will frustrate the Answer defensively, forcing him to take his infamous ill-advised shots.
Rick Barry is at a disadvantage against a quick PF in Garnett. Expect Barry to set screens and make passes on offense. Just enough to keep Garnett out of the game on the defensive end. He'll do the same with LeBron. His style will be lax, but he'll do enough moveing that these 2 will need to stay on their toes, in case he does take a rare shot.
As mentioned before, there will be an arm-wrestling matchup on both ends at PF. I expect the Mailman to deliver with quickness and get the best of Moses in the post.
Last edited by Mr_Showtime on July 21st at 7:54 PM.
Shaq is the most dominant player of the last 30 years. There is no one on the Cobras that can stop Shaq. He'll get dunks with Malone hanging on his ankles and Unseld around his neck. Wanna double-team him? Fine, he's one of the best passing centers in history. Wanna play-hack-a-Shaq? He'll shoot over 80% underhand thanks to his FT coach, Rick Barry.
Ewing will also be able to get his against Unseld. Moving Moses to center would slow Ewing down, so he'd resort to his turn-around baseline jumper to drill them over Malone's head.
Pistol Pete could do some damage at the three against Garnett, Bowen, and James. If he plays SG, he could gets some buckets over Jordan and Stockton, but not enough to be significant in this game.
This games is the type that David Stern dreams of. Shaq drops 55, Jordan gets 49. Multiple guys score in the 20s (Garnett, Maravich, Stockton, Mailman).
My official vote goes to: xphoenix87, 168-160 in a shootout.
As much as Shaq dominates, the combo of Stockton and Jordan are just too much. Xphoenix would lose the 1st half, but once LBJ got into the game and caught fire, the defense would have to attempt to stop 3 weapons, along with KG on the pick and roll.
This may be the most fun matchup of the tourney. It's too bad this couldn't have been the final.
Last edited by Mr_Showtime on July 21st at 8:08 PM.
genez - again, you're showing a narrow frame of mind about what makes a great player. Bill Russell is arguably the greatest center of all time and never scored much. You would very much like to completely discredit Bruce Bowen as being a valid piece, but he's a better defender than anyone on your squad, and he's a whole lot better at hitting an open 3-ball than Iverson is.
"Now when it comes to these guys needing the ball, you answered your own question. When you've got guys like Pistol Pete and Magic who can throw the ball from any point on the floor to any other point regardless of which way they are looking, you have to worry about every man at all times. That is the advantage of having all these scorers: they don't need to start with the ball, they can just sit tight because the two most exciting passers ever to touch a basketball are on the court with them. If some of your players are "defensive specialists", you lose this advantage."
Have you ever actually watched Allen Iverson play? The only times AI is successful is when he's dominating the ball. He's not a good enough shooter to really capitalize on all the open looks that Magic can get him, and he's not the "move without the ball for easy buckets" type.
Yeah, Maravich could throw the ball to anywhere on the court, but he very famously had a me-first attitude and turnover problems because he threw out of control passes. The 2 prime years of his career where they did record turnovers, he averaged 6.7 assits to 5 turnovers, and 5 assists to 4.1 turnovers. He was a flashy passer, he wasn't a great passer.
As I've already addressed, my "defensive specialist" hits open 3-pointers at a percentage that is 60 points higher than your best shooter.
Show - Since when is Moses Malone a "non-scoring rebounder"? He once averaged 30 a game, and the only reason his career average is "only" 20 is because he played so many seasons when he should have retired. Malone was an excellent post scorer in his day.
I'm well aware of Moses's scoring exploits. I should've worded it better, but Moses wouldn't put up those numbers against Malone and Shaq. By the time he got the size to take on Shaq, he was well out of his prime and severly overwieght. He'd get good boards in this contest, but with much of your team's shots coming from 10ft+, he wouldn't see as many tip-ins.
Phoenix- If you are comparing Bill Russell and Bruce Bowen in terms of being a valuable piece to a championship team, I will gladly take that shot to your credibility. Russell won 2 titles as a player/coach, and, as you said, is regarded as one of the greatest ever; Bowen is a one-dimensional playerin a dry defensive talent pool and is regarded as a dirty player. 'Nuff said.
You speak of Bowen being a better shooter from downtown than anyone on my squad. I propose to you a similar question: have you ever watched Bruce Bown play? The only jumper he can hit is the corner trey, and that's only if he is alotted a full second to set his feet by means o####reat drive and dish from Tony Parker. His percentage is good- even tops in the league once- but this is hardly a productive skill, as his career average of 6 ppg clearly shows (see, it's an important stat even if it's low).
Well, that's it for me. I've got a chapter of Harry Potter to finish and I'm going to bed. I wonder how many of our fellow tournament members appreciate these literary works the way we do, Phoenix. Anyway, good night. I can hardly wait to get up and read the box score. In the event of a tie, my official prediction for the combined final score is 307.
Alright, before I get to the specifics, let me get to the matchups.
phoenix, I feel like you’re way overrating what Wes will do defensively on a Shaq in his prime. While he’ll no doubt be able to get him out of position on a few occasions, Shaq will STILL dominate on the offensive end and Wes will do little to stop him. Unseld will no doubt grab a few boards (Shaq will take a good number for himself using his clear size advantage), but I feel that rebounds and making Shaq slightly uncomfortable will be all he’s good for. Offensively, at 6’7, he won’t be doing much damage on the big fella.
Moses versus Karl, what a great match up. Given that I’ve seen much more Karl Malone film than Moses I considered giving the Mailman the nod based on that. A quick scan of the internet and a glance at the stats changed my mind a bit. Aside from being a great rebounder, Moses also seemed to be able to light it up as many of his seasonal averages and his overall points for his career seem to indicate. Still, having witnessed the Mailman in person, I believe that he’d get his on the offensive end while losing the rebounds battle to Moses.
KG playing at the SF is VERY interesting. Given that his game isn’t as “post only” as other PFs in the game, I think he may actually be alright at the SF on the offensive end and really make a difference against Barry on the defensive end. The one thing you’re giving up by putting him at SF is the rebounding that he’d give you. I’ll get into rebounding a little more once I’m done with the matchups. Barry from everything I’ve read was a great shooter from the outside, an incredibly intelligent player, and had good court vision so I have to wonder if he’d be able to figure out a way to battle the obvious physical advantages that KG presents. Unfortunately at four inches less than KG, I have to believe that he’ll have his court vision hampered and will only serve productive as a three point shooter hitting with efficiency as Magic gets him the ball from where he can be most effective. Barry will be reduced to a strictly shooter in this game. KG wears the shorter Barry down on the offensive end but not with his usual flair since he’ll be limited to not getting the tip-ins he’d have if he was playing closer to the basket.
In what I feel is a completely lopsided match you’ll have AI versus Stockton. With Stockon AKA the king of the pick and roll completely abusing Shaq, and with AI’s limited defensive capabilities consisting of relying purely on gambling and getting steals which a smart player like Stockton would not give him, Stockton will torch AI with great passing and good shooting. Stockton who is a great defender won’t be able to completely shut AI down, but he’ll be ab
shut AI down, but he’ll be able to keep up with AI’s quickness which in turn will leave AI launching long balls and his FG percentage speaks for itself. Big advantage here to Stockton.
Magic versus Jordan was a VERY tough matchup for me simply because I had to wonder how badly MJ would irk Magic with his D. On offense MJ despite Magic’s height advantage would completely tear down Magic’s iffy D with an assortment of moves that’ll make Magic’s head spin. Slashing, pull up, three pointer…MJ will just kill Magic. On defense MJ will do his best to limit Magic’s scoring but the length he gives up to Magic will prevent him from SERIOUSLY hindering Magic’s passing ability. Magic scoring wise will be limited, but if he can use his size advantage against a very strong Jordan (so I’m not sure it’d work) he’d be able to demand help from either Wes or Malone freeing up either Karl or Shaq either of whom Magic would spot with the eyes in the back of his head.
I too feel that Bowen despite the fact that he can hit the three and can guard 1-3 doesn’t belong here. I feel that his biggest impact on the game will be felt when he comes in and puts it down against Pistol Pete who from everything I’ve gathered is a dazzling offensive player. However, given that Bowen has faced the likes of Kobe who I doubt was any less capable than Pistol Pete I think he’ll be able to bother him a bit but be unable to shut him down completely like he’s unable to do with the greats today. When Bowen comes in to stick Rick Barry I assume Rick Barry will actually have MORE success than he did when he had KG sticking him in the first place. I think that while Bowen gets some points standing off to the side and waiting for Stockton to dish it off to him, he’ll be practically irrelevant on the offensive end.
Lebron will come into play when he starts abusing Rick Barry with his athleticism and starts driving to the hoop forcing the D to collapse and finding open shooters IE MJ, Stockton, and Bowen.
Ewing will use his strength against Wes and simply shoot over him. That said, I think Wes will be more effective in bothering Ewing than he will be bothering Shaq when it comes to positioning.
Alright with the players out of the way, let me move on to a few other things before placing my vote.
First off, I think the two big men in Shaq and Ewing really do something to hurt the seriously run and gun potential you have with Magic running the point. If you were to take Shaq and Ewing out in order to get a successful running game going in Barry and Pistol Pete you have to guys that could really make it work. The problem is that AI who’s really best served breaking his guys down, conflicts with the fact that Magic would be bringing the ball down in an up tempo offense looking for the quick score. Assuming AI would shift away from his “break ‘em down” game and start running ahead of everybody utilizing his quickness and waiting for either Magic, Barry, or Pete to get him the ball…he could be really effective.
The problem with the up tempo offense is that phoenix doesn’t have the traditional big men that’d get slowed down by such an offense. To top that off, because he’d be able to have Moses and Wes on the floor in an up tempo game while you’d be forced to take Shaq and Ewing out, you’d be giving up rebounds to him like something crazy.
Speaking of which, between Jordan, Moses, Wes, and KG versus Shaq, Ewing, Malone you have a great assortment of rebounders. phoenix gets the nod on the boards simply because he can have more great rebounders on the floor at the same time whereas it’s doubtful you’ll be playing Shaq and Ewing at the same time all that often. That said, by playing KG at the SF position you’re reducing the dude’s rebounding abilities like something vicious and relying on a 6’7 guy in Wes to get boards over big men like Shaq. As Ben Wallace proves to us, it can be done, but still…The thing that saves phoenix on the rebounding side is MJs knack for being a good rebounder.
phoenix’s squad is filled with the better defenders despite the fact that Shaq will send Wes home crying to mommy.
With Stockton running the point I can see a lot of pick and rolls with KG or Malone going down, with Jordan completely messing Magic up whenever the pick and rolls that completely kill Shaq on D are not going down. Wes and Bowen do hinder the squad offensively, and if we’re talking scoring power genez team takes the cake.
I’m going to have to say that despite a monstrous performance by the Diesal, the effective combination of offense and defense on phoenix’s roster versus the scoring frenzy that is genez team translates into a win for Arizona.
nd he may have worn the shortest shorts of all time, but he was the most fundamentally sound guard the league has ever seen. He was an 11-time All-NBA team member, 5-time All-Defensive team member, 10-time All-Star, and 2-time Olympic gold medalist. Stockton used his toughness, savvy, and uncanny court vision to set standards in assists and steals that may never be touched. Consider this, Stockton's 15,806 assists gives him 5,483 more than Mark Jackson in second place. To put that in perspective, only 33 players in NBA history have 5,483 assists in their entire careers. There are nine 1000+ assist seasons in NBA history, Stockton has seven of them. He's also the career leader in steals, with his 3,265 putting him over 700 steals in front of Michael Jordan in second place. To cite the Wikipedia article on Stockton...
Forward - Kevin Garnett: Few players in NBA history have been as versatile as KG has. A 6'11 player with guard skills and a terrific rebounding edge, he's truly a unique talent. He's an 8-time All-NBA team member, 8-time All-Defensive team member, 10-time All-Star, league MVP, All-Star game MVP, and 4-time league leader in RPG. In addition to that, reports from when he was on the 2000 Olympic team said that he was the only player who beat everyone else when they played 1-on-1 in practice, and this was a team with Ray Allen, Vince Carter, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, Tim Hardaway and Alonzo Mourning. 
ar none. He had uncanny positioning and sheer determination to get every board. Nobody was better at tipping the ball either to themselves or into the basket. He was an NBA champion, 3-time MVP, 8-time All-NBA team member, 2-time All-Defensive team member, and 12-time All-Star. Since they started keeping the stat in 73-74, Malone is the all-time leading offensive rebounder with 6,731, he's also 3rd in total rebounds and 2nd in free throws made. Despite his relentless approach, Malone stayed out of foul trouble, and went without disqualification in his last 1,212 games, an NBA record.
d 13.8 PPG and 18.2 RPG and was named the MVP. His scoring average wasn't impressive, and he didn't even lead the league in rebounding, so why did he win the award? Simply put, Wes Unseld won games. The year before he arrived, the Bullets won 36 games. In Unseld's rookie year, they won 57. He didn't garner a lot of awards outside of that MVP trophy, but he did what needed to be done. With 270 pounds packed onto his 6'7 frame, Unseld was one of the strongest players ever to play in the league. He used his considerable 
t.
