If you are under the age of 30, you will not like this column. If you are from Chicago, you'll be much happier clicking somewhere else. And if you're under 30, from Chicago AND black, too...well, don't say I didn't warn you.
Being nearly 50 years of age, whenever I'm asked who is the best basketball player of all time, I answer thusly.
1. Wilt Chamberlain set all the records; 2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar broke many of those records; 3. Bill Russell won 11 NBA titles, but; 4. All of those men claimed that Oscar Robertson was the baddest MF to ever step on the court.
Do the math, Bulls' fans -- all of the above would tend to place MJ as no better than a distant fifth place.
In all of the MJ-mania, I've been aghast and irritated by how so many people can get it so right in football and so wrong in basketball. Why do people believe that Jim Brown is the greatest football player of all-time, but then -- in the same breath -- also believe that his contemporary, the Big O, somehow played in the olden days?
I bring up this rant in context after reading Ellioitt Kalb's book, "Who's Better, Who's Best in Basketball." Kalb lists his own rankings for the top 50 hoopsters of all-time with a collection of face-offs to make his point. He gives often compelling and frequently amazing arguments, rating each player against their contemporaries and the all-time best at their respective position.
For his part, Kalb places MJ in 3rd place behind Wilt. His all-time best? Shaquille O'Neal!
My problem with rating MJ or the Shaq Diesel as the all-time best is that I can remember seeing Wilt play. I remember Oscar and Bill Russell. I also saw Elgin Baylor and Jerry West play too and I'd argue that they both deserve a place in this argument.
That last statement inexorably leads to a total disconnect with the under-30 crowd. To the younger generation, Baylor and West are little more than a couple of old dudes that you see every year at the draft lottery.
In fact, Elgin was MJ before MJ was a gleam in his late daddy's eyes. Jerry West might have been the best pure shooter the game has ever seen. Both men had 50 point nights -- long before the advent of the 3 point hoop, I might add. But Baylor never won a title and West never won an MVP. The Celtics won all the championships and Wilt won everything else.
To my mind, calling MJ the all-time greatest is akin to naming Emmitt Smith the greatest football player of all-time and nobody thinks that.
I'd also argue that MJ and Magic Johnson are penalized in the ultimate all-time rankings -- we can't say for sure that their respective missing seasons would have resulted in more championships.
Still, nobody has ever gotten close to Bill Russell's eleven rings, so he gets the first place at the table.
If the Big Aristotle can win another title with the Heat, then Kalb's case becomes more sound. And yet, I can't help but think that much of Shaq Daddy's dominance is the result of the dearth of physically demanding contemporaries. Wilt had Russell, Thurmond and Walt Bellamy. Kareem faced the tail end of those giants' careers and then fought off the likes of Jack Sikma, Bob Lanier, Bill Walton, Kevin McHale/Robert Parrish, Patrick Ewing and Hakeem Olajuwon.
Who does Shaq have? Tim Duncan? He's not a center, but you can make a strong case that Duncan is already better than Larry Bird, Moses Malone or Charles Barkley. (That's another column for another day.)
Back to the countdown. Wilt Chamberlain was a statistical cyclone -- blowing down all the records and preconceptions of the game in his wake, slicing what came before him like so many strands of wheat on the Kansas prarie.
From Kalb's book on Wilt vs. MJ.
Games needed to reach 30,000 points: Wilt 941 MJ 960
Scoring average after 1,045 games: Wilt 30.1 MJ 30.3
Wilt also averaged almost four times as many rebounds as Jordan. Try these next couple stats on for size.
Most 50 point games: Wilt 122 MJ 37
Most 60 point games: Wilt 32 MJ 4
Most 70 point games: Wilt 6 David Thompson, Elgin Baylor, David Robinson 1 MJ 0
In 1962, Wilt "AVERAGED" 50.4 points a game including that 100 point night in Hershey, PA. In fact, Wilt scored 50+ points in 45 different games in 1962- more than any other player did in their entire career.
Whereever Wilt is now -- working on his next 10,000 sexual conquests, he deserves the next seat at the table.
Kareem stayed in the game long enough to break many of Wilt's records, so he must be included in the discussion. At the expense of being a shameless homer and lifelong Milwaukee Bucks fan, I bump up the Big Fella's rankings because he sublimated his game with the Lakers late in his career so that Magic could help him win a few more championships.
That's one thing MJ never did -- take team accomplishments over personal vanity. Here's another thing MJ didn't do: lead a team to an NBA title in his second season for an expansion team in its third season.
Here's one last nail in that coffin : They actually changed the rules of college basketball because of Kareem. Lewis Alcindor (aka Kareem) was so dominant as a sophomore -- they didn't allow freshmen to play varsity back then -- that the NCAA outlawed the dunk. In retrospect, Jabbar insists that it ironically made his game better by forcing him to create more shots.
Oscar only won his sole NBA title -- one of the highlights of my youth, I might add -- after sublimating his game to match the Big Fella in Milwaukee. There's only one number I can give you to demonstrate how the Big O dominated the game at guard long before MJ.
Triple Double Games: Oscar Robertson 181 Magic Johnson 138 Wilt Chamberlain 78 Larry Bird 59 Jason Kidd 46
MJ is nowhere to be found. The Big O practically invented the triple double by "AVERAGING" a triple-double season. Think MJ with the bulk of a linebacker, truly the Jim Brown of the hardwoods. Mr. Robertson can now sit down.
So that's my prosecutorial case for my top four -- Wilt, Kareem, Russell and Oscar.
Over the years, I've run into a good many fans who make the case for someone other that MJ in fifth place with a bullet. Magic gets a lot of write-in votes and I can see the argument. He did win an NBA title and Finals MVP in his rookie season. (Kalb rightly notes the award should have gone to Kareem but the press freaked out after Magic's 42 in Game 7.)
Magic brought back the memory of Oscar by establishing his talents for the triple double. He embodied that shopworn cliche -- Magic actually made the players around him better. I'd argue that he made it his mission and therefore, I much enjoyed Magic's game over MJ's.
My Magic moment came, ironically enough, in Kareem's final NBA game in Milwaukee. Kareem was doing a sort of farewell tour and each city was presenting Jabbar with a gift.
(So, of course, Milwaukee shocks Kareem with a custom built, creme-coloured Harley Roadster. How sweet is that? A big bike for the Big Fella!)
(Kareem looked, for all the world, like a kid on Xmas. He had this beautific grin on his face that seemed to say, "can I keep it?" Jabbar also confided that he'd owned a cycle in his days with the Bucks, using it for tooling around the 'burbs in Ozaukee County, adding, "I got rid of that thing when I moved to LA.')
Anyway, back to Magic. Seated in the court-side press table, I could hear what the players -- some of the all-time best -- were saying.
In the 2nd quarter, Kareem takes a seat and Mark McNamara enters the game, fresh off signing one of those 10-day free agent contracts. In less forgiving and less politically correct times, Mac would have been uncharitably called a big white stiff -- less than 2.0 in points and rebounds.
First time down the court. Magic spots that no one is taking the big lug seriously as an offensive threat, and so he snaps a marvelous pass through two defenders...that clanks off MacNamara's hands out of bounds.
The big kid purposely turns his head away from the court, feeling coach Pat Riley's eyes glaring at him when Magic grabs Mac's head, shushes him and merely points to his own eyes with both hands. Just look at me, kid, and you'll be fine.
Can you even imagine how to cool it was to play with Magic Johnson? If you run the court and keep your eyes open, the man will somehow get you the ball. Doesn't matter, if you just walked off the street. The total antithesis of a Scottie Pippen, who once refused to enter a last second playoff game because the play wasn't drawn up for him.
By the way, let's stifle the Pippen in the Greatest all-time fifty players list garbage right now. If it wasn't for MJ, Pippen would be a high school coach in rural Arkansas. Okay, maybe, he might have gotten a shot at coaching the Razorbacks by now.
All of the people mentioned so far are lightyears ahead of Pippen, and if it's rings that make the champion, then all of those Celtics rate above Pippen too.
Magic Johnson's actions that night in Milwaukee told everyone - from his team to his coach to the fans in the stands to the entire league -- you WILL guard everyone on my team or I'll take this lug and make him a star. For me, I'll take that over MJ's game anyday.
Moreover, I'd rather place Magic at No. 5 because I'd love to have seen him play point guard with Wilt, Kareem, Russell and Oscar. Let MJ have next game and he can take the next four in line to play against my all-time five.
Now that MJ's slipped to 6th place, there's another inconvenient truth for Bulls' fans. Jordan's ranking could soon be in jeopardy from the current generation of players.
I mentioned earlier that Tim Duncan may be the game's finest all-time forward already. He's got three rings and enough time to get three more to match MJ's six titles.
Don't look now, but we've come to Mr. Kalb's argument. Shaq has four rings now and a couple more would move him up the list. As of now, Timmy and Diesel get the next seats at the table.
A couple years ago, I thought Kobe Bryant could someday become the all-time greatest, but I don't think that way anymore. Maybe, he'll get his act together and more emulate Mike Jordan and not Mike Tyson, but I also wonder more lately if Kobe's not another Darryl Strawberry waiting to happen.
The last invitee to the party is Lebron James. After an MVP-worthy regular season, he showed he could be just as good in the playoffs by recording two triple-doubles and averaging 30.8 points -- Jordan averaged 43.7 in his first playoff season. James also became the first player to average at least 30 points, eight rebounds and five assists in the playoffs since Oscar Robertson (1963).
Add that to Lebron's 2003-04 NBA Rookie of the Year award -- becoming the first Cavalier and youngest player to ever receive the award as one of three rookies in NBA history to average at least 20 points, five rebounds and five assists in one season (O. Robertson, M. Jordan) -- and the case is made for the youngster to eventually become the all-time greatest.
In this, James' third season, he ranked
#3 in the NBA in Points Per Game,
#12 in the NBA in Assists Per Game,
#2 in the NBA in Minutes Per Game,
#2 in the NBA in Minutes Played,
#2 in the NBA in Field Goals Made,
#2 in the NBA in Field Goal Attempts,
#6 in the NBA in Free Throws,
#3 in the NBA in Free Throw Attempts and
# 2 in the NBA in Points.
Having seen all of the above players, I'd argue that Lebron's season -- and especially his first playoffs -- bears some consideration. He's the Joker in this deck -- we simply cannot say how good this guy could become.
As for those still on the Good Ship MJ, I see him being squeezed between the old schoolers and the newer kids on the block.
Michael Jordan, the all-time best? I don't think so.
I'm under 30 and from Chicago so I followed your rules and didn't read what you had to say. However, I did read your title and just by that alone, I think your a ####.
Last edited by aulancer02 on June 12th at 12:33 PM.
I'm also under 30 and completely disagree with you here. Jordan changed the game for the better during his career, and is the most influential athlete of all time. He's easily in the top five greatest players ever, but is definitely the best guard to ever play the game.
aulancer02: Besides glaring spelling errors -- once an editor... -- read the piece and defend your own arguments or else I'll be resigned to just calling you a ####, too.
PF: With all due respect, Babe Ruth changed baseball. Tiger Woods is changing golf. MJ didn't change the game, but rather the game changed for him -- weaker competition, weaker enforcement of officials' rulings (remind me when MJ was ever called for traveling) AND the 3 point rule.
Last edited by talkingsportsLIVE on June 12th at 12:06 PM.
I'm still confused on the criteria for "do not read". If you want to argue Oscar Robertson all day long, I would have to tell you that you have a great point. Throw Wilt into the mix? Wasn't the three-second rule added because of him? "Kareem stayed long enough" that about says it all about Kareem. 11 rings for Bill Russell? Fewer teams, shorter playoffs, and HOF players surrounding him. In 1958-59 there were a whopping 8 teams in the league, in 65-66 there were, get this....9 teams.
You're trying to compare eras, this is unfair to any player. What if the Chicago Bulls had to travel across the country just once in a season? What if you played an 81 game season and only 4 teams had a winning record? What if Kareem, Wilt and Bill had any competition at the center/power forward position? Olajuwon, Laimbeer, Rodman, Barkley, Robinson, Malone, Mark Eaton, Smits. Mahorn, Divac, seems like a lot more competition than Wilt, Russell, and Johnny Kerr.
Tell us all how great those 8 or 9 NBA teams were in the 60’s and how much better the players were than MJ, Bird, Isaiah, Magic, etc. The only players that could carry Jordan’s jock were the Big O and Wilt.
Loved the post, made me think from another's eyes!
Those under the age of 30 were only 10 when MJ came into the league. Having the same skin color as MJ means that you have the same skin color and little else in common. Why under 30 and black? Still confused.
Last edited by smoketheblowfish on June 12th at 12:44 PM.
I am under thirty, and I know that Jordan is not the best player of all time. I always said that if I could take 40-50 shots a game, I could average 25-30 pts a game too.
I am not a big basketball fan, so I may be misinformed, but I always thought Jordan did get away with a lot of stuff...pushoffs, dropping shoulders, traveling as you mentioned in your post. I would like to play devil's advocate, but I can't, because all the player's you mentioned above Jordan, even I've heard of and believe you.
I will say this about Shaq. When he came along, no one was really used to an athletic 7 ft. 300 lbs center. That was his biggest advantage.
As far as Tim Duncan, if your nickname is "the big fundamental," is there anything else to be said?
Overall, I loved it...probably because I'm a Duke fan and Jordan is from UNC...maybe I have hidden agendas.
Finally some truth........for once! You make good on all your points. I love the comments by "SMOKE..." as well. Great points. Though, there's at least a copule of things I would add.
The NBA was underdeveloped it its heyday. Thus tumbling the ball into the post to your best low post player was the norm. Easy baskets, because of the lack of athleticism from players and also the simplicity of the game. Where was the game planning ever complex??? Simple offense and simple defense, anyone? Take a look at how the game has evolved and regressed and changed again. If the same rule changes were enforced back in the day, there's no telling for sure how the players would have performed/changed their style of play. And that's not to mention the enhanced conditioning of athletes today (I'm trying to stay off the topic of steroids though)???? Wouldn't that make a difference as well?
Now there is a second argument to make as for GOAT players. You did not factor in clutch performance, which by all counts, should also be considered a HUGE factor in a player's greatness as much as championship hardware. In that aspect, you cannot dispell MJ as being the one player you wouldn't want to have the rock for that one final shot. Yeah, there are other players (I'm a huge Bird fan by the way) who could be given the handle and sink the shot without a shred of doubt.
Last edited by ThurstonHowellDa3rd on June 12th at 2:46 PM.
Jordan has made some of the more memorable in NBA history, but he has also been the catalyst for his other teammates as well -- made them better. I couldn't agree with you more that Pippen, though he was a pretty solid player as Jordan's wingman, really killed his case by demanding a trade out of Chicago, instead of proving his mettle. And Shaq, are you kidding me??? I keep saying he is a good/okay player, but he's way too overrated. To think a GOAT player should at least be able to make easy, uncontested buckets! He's a disgrace to the 5th grader practicing his free throws out in the playground.....
I agree with your arguments though. However, MJ is within the top 4 if not 5 GOAT players. His play did significantly change the way future players and countless basketball spectators viewed the gane. I CAN argue that much though. You need only ask a person half way across the world if they know who Michael Jordan is. A good majority will. Besides, isn't MJ the idol of most of today's rising young stars and the frequent name of most comparisons (i.e. LeBron & Wade)? Sorry, the big men of year's past, need not apply....but they get props for heading your list.
+++ And Duncan's glass shot was the prettiest, when he use to have it.....for a big fella, that is. Leadership + skill = winning = greatness. Remember the formula.
This is one of my posts from a while back. You can never truely determine who is the best, and that post above has all of the reasons why. But a good post, and a solid arguement for your case. Until the end of time, people will always have fun debates about who the greatest was, but truely, its an opinion, and can not be determined for sure. All of the guys you named can definetly have a case made for them.
1. I am 35, for the record.
2. I agree that the eras are different, so a lot of the ranking is neither here nor there.
3. Each position is different, as is each era...
4. Wilt was dominant, but not against Russell. You could argue that the shorter one was better; as a passer, defender, winner, team player, Coach (!) and as a person (20,000 encounters, really great stat, Chamberlain... what a jerk, and we wonder who role models are and their affect on their communities...)
5. Bird was better than West
6. Jordan would have tremendous battles with Robertson, but MJ would almost always win, especially due to speed
7. Same with Pippen
8. Kareem played great, but Shaq blows him away in a straight up match up, as he does to most, except for Hakeem or Ewing, who would also hurt Kareem...
9. But again, this is all conjecture, and everyone is entitled to their biased opinion...
10. Oscar was the greatest for his time, but like Wilt and Kareem, they manhandled smaller competition
11. Baylor? I suppose he's up there, but why doesn't he get more attention?
12. I think Isaih gets short shrift, but he was fantastic...obviously Magic is amazing, and he ranks as the most dominant PG...
blog it
Last edited by edclinchsaint on June 12th at 5:02 PM.
As an 'under 30' I can appreciate the great works of Russell, Kareem, & Wilt, however they mostly remain something that only old people argue over.
MJ broke me into the NBA as a fan. I cut my teeth on Jordan. On the court I wore his shoes, I stuck my tongue out (like an ####) to be like Mike. In my heart he's the best although I know there have been/are better players in the league.
If I was born 10-15 years later I would view Jordan differently because I didn't experience him. Instead I would be singing the Kobe song or possibly doing the LeBron Mambo.
Just a matter of perspective is all, but still makes for some very entertaining discussions.
jordan may be slightly overrated..in a pure basketball sense b/c of his overall effect on the game and its culture....
but he was great in teh clutch...and reg season..
lets face it though..he got alot of calls b/c the game needed him..
right now the best player is kobe..nobody in ever in the history of the game combines his ability to split doubles...shooting range..body control, baseline moves...62 in 3 qtrs ......outscoring the nba champs...and 81 pts are more impressive than wilts 100..
that was in overtime....while being fed the ball..standing in the lane..no 3 secs...
come on folks....u know better..lol
dwade cant consistently get his shot on the perimeter..his game depends on getting calls from the refs...lebron can get his shot..just cant make it consistently yet..and gets the calls b/c the game needs another MJ...
I am under 30, and I completely agree. I have been pushing this argument around for years now, and it's refreshing to see a fellow hoops head show such passion for this idea. However, I cant put Wilt or Shaq as the greatest ever because they dominated with their bodies more so than their skill, although they both had plenty of skill to seperate themselves from other big men. Jordan was never a playmaker, he was a recipient of passes. Furthermore, he never changed the game. His success was on the coattails of the success of Magic and Bird. They changed the NBA. Much of Jordans mythology was created as part of the NBAs and Nikes massive marketing campaign to sell shoes, tickets, and merchandise. Magic was the greatest playmaker, and showed that he could excell at every position on the court. Kobe has been both Magic and Jordan at different stages of his career. He has the offensive dominance and defensive tenacity as Jordan, but can also defer his game to become a playmaker and incredible passer (as we saw during the Shaq & Kobe days). Elgin and West are two of the greatest scorers of all time, and accomplished their feats in an age when there were no three point lines. The Big O was simply amazing, but I think Lebron can surpass him if he develops a jump shot and the ability to defend.
As of right now, my all-time team is Wilt, Duncan, Big O, MJ, and Magic. However, that can change, and I predict it will become Wilt, Duncan, LBJ, Kobe, and Magic.
To be in the top 5, I assumed you had to play defense. Watch ESPN Classic sometime when they show the Bulls vs Celtics and Jordan goes for 63. Nike did not create MJ, it was the other way around. Who was it that was feeding the ball to MJ during his career? BJ, Paxson, Ennis Whatley, Ron Higgins, Kyle Macy, should I go on? The Bulls didn't exactly have Isaiah or Stockton dishing out passes. Jordan became mythical due to his play on the court and to diminish how great he truly was is to be ignorant of what he brought to the game. Came in as a dunker, left as a shooter while winning 6 titles. Those titles came with 6 different teams wearing the red and black, save for Pippen.
I cannot you compared Jordan to Emmitt Smith. Some of your arguments had weight, but that comment was rediculous. You might as well throw in a Herold Minor comparison. they did call him "baby Jordan" for a while.
1. Wilt Chamberlain set all the records;
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar broke many of those records;
3. Bill Russell won 11 NBA titles, but;
4. All four of those men claimed that Oscar Robertson was the baddest MF to ever step on the court.
Do the math, Bulls' fans -- all of the above would tend to place MJ as no better than a distant fifth place.
i did the math......were you refering to yourself in the third person mr. editor? i only see the names of 3 men in #4.?????????????????
All I can say is MJ changed the image of NBA. He made it real exciting and fun to watch. His moves made the difference. The younger players nowadays just add some more flavor in it. Old basketball was very boring.
Kareem, Russell, and Wilt claim that OR was the baddest MF to step onto a court. Wilt and Russell never played against MJ, so I guess they wouldn't have a perspective other than the players from the 7 or 8 Teams they played against. Kareem met MJ, MJ and the Bulls won the Championship in 5 games. Who did Kareem have as teammates? Magic, Worthy, Byron Scott, Sam Perkins, Vlade Divac and AC Green. They lost in the Finals 4-1.
Who led their team to the Best Record in the history of the NBA? Do the math #23 is 3rd in points scored, 2nd in career steals, 4th on free throws made, 5 time MVP, Led the league in scoring 87-88 and was named defensive MVP the same year,1st in points/game career. Also led the league in scoring for 10 years, 7 consecutively. Wilt is a close 2nd in ppg, yet was able to average 50ppg for a season. What happened? The math says different from the opinions. Never has there been a more complete player...Offense, Defense, and Titles, the Trifecta!
I am under 30 and fully agree with you that MJ is not the best player to ever play the game. But he is above Kareem because of who Kareem had playing around him. MJ didn't have Magic, Worthy, West, and if it wasnt for the enforcers that Lakers signed in Kareem's heyday, aka Kermit Washington, Kareem would probably have been so beat up by the other teams that he would not have been able to play many games, remember he was not a physical player.
The Big O is the best player of all time, I believe he is the only person to have averaged a triple double over a single season and I don't care who you are playing against that is amazing.
As for MJ changing the NBA, I believe that Magic, Bird and Isaih changed the game for MJ by making it a more uptempo game and taking the game away from the big men and giving it to the guards and forwards.
Lastly, I'm sure Bryon Russell just fell down, MJ definetly did not push him away. Right!
That is a valid point Ryan. To average a triple double over the course of most of your career is amazing. Every one is riding LBJ's jock strap just because he almost did it, and are comparing him to MJ because MJ almost did it, but the BIG O DID IT! You echoed my thoughts about Magic and Bird changing the game, and Jordan riding their success to glory. I still stand by what I said, when I stated that Jordans mythology is due to NIKE's and the NBA's massive marketing campaing. As far as the response that another blogger made about Jordan's name being recognized every where on earth, that is a result of that marketing campaign. Another blogger stated that he tried to "Be Like Mike", was that not a catchy jingle from a commercial? Everything that is being said to validate Jordans mythology goes back to advertising.
Also, fans on nba.com have named jordans jumper over russel as the greatest shot in nba finals history. I called foul when the shot was taken, and am calling it now. Plus, best shot ever in finals history? NO WAY! Magic, baby sky hook, boston garden! 'Nuff said!
For my money, the greatest shot of my lifetime was Kareem's skyhook -- 17 feet out from the right baseline -- in double overtime that beat the Celtics in Game 6 of the NBA Finals in the old Boston Garden, forcing a Game 7 in Milwaukee...
which they lost.
Another personal fave is Ray Allen for Milwaukee drilling a series of three-pointers in Madison Square Garden that put that game into overtime. It was while He Got Game was just coming out and Spike Lee had his co-star Denzel Washington beside him courtside. As Allen nailed the last 3-ptr., Denzel needled Spike, shouting "that's my boy!"
I don't care what statistics or players from different eras say. I don't even care about athletic ability and skills. Jordan would flat out KILL anyone because he is the most competitive athlete and had the strongest mentality any sport has ever known. Period. The man refused to lose.
The comment about Kobe's ability to split the double-team made me chuckle. Not out of spite, but because it brought back memories of MJ splitting triple-teams before he learned to pass the ball. How about the "Jordan Rules" implemented by the Pistons? When he gets near the hoop, hammer him! That didn't work either. Somehow, "Hack-a-Shaq" does.
Why was Jordan the first player to completely and single-handedly elevate a shoe company to number 1 on a global scale? Why not Magic or Larry Bird or Wilkins or Kareem? Must have been the marketing, not the player some of us were watching light up the Celts at the Garden. Could it be that the NBA was waiting for a special player? See Magic, Bird, and Kareem.
Oscar Robertson, 6ft 5, 225 lb. point guard. A man against boys during the '60s. Jim Brown, another man against boys, was a great athlete who weighed as much the Line that blocked for him. Great players that abused the lack of athleticism surrounding them. Triple-double for a season against a league of 8, somehow that is not as impressive as it sounds.
If it makes any difference, what player owns the NBA Finals record for most points per game and Final's MVP? When all is said and done, isn't it about the competition, the contribution, the clutch and the rings?
Last edited by smoketheblowfish on June 15th at 1:04 PM.
smoketheblowfish said: Triple-double for a season against a league of 8, somehow that is not as impressive as it sounds.
Rave on, dude, but that was just dumb...
It was a CONDENSED league, so the league was tougher.
More teams = weaker competition
fewer teams = greater competition
Look, there's a plethora of folks out there who worship at the Church of MJ. But as you can tell from some of the posts here, not everyone chooses to drink the Kool-Aid.
And when it comes down to it, I saw all of those players and you did not.
Since you're already pissed off, why not check out a former column of mine...
Cubs Defy Yogi Berra
It really WAS over before it was over
Well first let me say that's not even a comparison - between Wilt and MJ,,,,what a joke Michael was How Big???? If you are Andrea the Giant you beat every one because your the bigest man alive. Open your eyes bud....MJ is the best player to play period pound for pound period...not even a case for the others! Second - I am 50 years old and also so these other guys play,,,,,talk about a slow game with a bunch of bullies with no style...just pound it in to the big guy,,,,,,zone defence - triple teaming omg....triple team MJ for 10 years and Pippen becomes the best player to play the game.
I really like this post. Agree or disagree, this was backed up by a ton of facts. Good piece.
Do I agree? Well, I think people overrate Jordan tremendously. I would have him higher than 6 but certainly not having him first is a possibility. And Pippen would have been a fine pro player, just not top 50.
BTW, Shaq has 4 rings.
Last edited by The_Dan on August 24th at 11:05 AM.
I'm really late to this, but edclinch saying Jabbar couldn't deal with Shaq? He'd dominate him.
Bird better than West? They don't even play the same position. I saw a stat one time on how many last 2nd shots West hit to win games or send them to overtime, and how many of the OT's would have been wins with a 3 point line. Wish I could remember, but it was a bunch.
I'm an old guy, I've seen all these players. Michael Jordan is one of the 2 or 3 greatest because of his titles and the way he performed in the clutch.
I'm under 30, and I have always known that Michael Jordan is not the greatest player to ever play.
I do not give him that credit for the simple reason that, in my opinion, the league in the 90's was not as elite as in the 80's. Jordan DID NOT succeed until he entered the 90's.
Wilt would be first, Bill Russell second, The big O third, and then Jordan placed on a 4th place.
Loved the article. I will not make this longer, because the stats speak for themselves.
@xrooster: The 4th player mentioned is Oscar Robertson, don't be more ignorant.
@neschip: Wrong again. Magic Johnson and the Lakers were the first to change the game with their famous "Showtime". -Always remember, Jordan did not change the game, marketing changed Jordan to a celebrity-player fusion, and the rest is history.
@The_Dan: All the way correct!
@mtcmtc33: I agree, Bird is a better gifted player, and If it wasn't for McHale's injuries, they would have won maybe 1 or 2 more championships. -- I'd like to say also that Timmy is more dominant, and could quietly retire with *2 or 3 more rings.
*I said 2 or 3 for the reason that I believe that the Spurs are the most well structured team in the nba, even though my favorite is the T'wolves, because of KG, but one have to admit reality.
Last edited by cesarms on September 2nd at 1:05 PM.
Recsoftball - you know damn well that even if you took 100 shots at the NBA level, you wouldnt hit 25 points a game. thats sum #### and you know it.
to this #### saying dumb #### for attention: well you got it. your reasoning is stupid. this post is why no one respects sports writers. i could list Jordans accolades for you, but your google works just like mine. CHamberlain as the biggest guy on the planet for a decade. he was a ball hog and a scam artist. he couldnt hold Shaq's jock strap - and i dont even lthink Shaq is all that great.
At the 1997 NBA All-Star Game they celebrated the the top 50 players in NBA history, it was unanimous among the players was that this guy is the greatest player to ever play.
i dont know why people post these things. its like you look at whomever is that greatest at something and decide to go against for the hell of it. thats really pathetic. there are at least 20 bloggers here who could have written a better article than this ####. i really hope this wasnt a test of your skill because not only was this #### article poorly written, but its cliche'.
either way, Jordan has the number and none of the issues your other players have. Jordan played against guys with talent - not short scrubs like Chamberlain did. this isnt a league with 9 teams. this is a 80+ game schedule. this is a real play off system. this is the age of free agency.
i've always hated the "this guy is the best, not that guy" arguements. its hard enough comparing 2 guys who play the same position at the same time, let alone a hand full of guys who played different positions in different eras...all the guys mentioned are some of the best, but trying to pick ONE who is THE BEST is just ludicrous. there's solid arguements against and for each one of them, which is another reason picking 1 is so silly.
argue all the stats you want, but unless they all played against each other for an extended period of time, forget it. russel and chamberlain did play against each other, and there's enough of an arguement which of those 2 is better.
then you argue who had the better teammates, which, for me personally, (and hypothetically) completely excludes kareem and russel from the equation.
if you go by rings, russel wins it, except you have to remember again how good his teammates were. same with kareem.
jordan got 6, and had he not temporarily retired (for whatever reason), odds are the bulls win at least 1 of the 2 years in that stretch...probably both. other than pippen, his teams werent that great, just a bunch of role players and a pretty good coach. but does that make him the greatest? if 1 thing made him stand out over the rest, it would be his competitiveness. nobody worked harder to improve their game, or make their teammates better, than he did. as for robertson, i dont know that much about him. the 1 knock i've heard about him was that he was actually extremely selfish, and only wanted to pile up stats. i dont know if its true, but if that drove him to be more competitive, so be it. but how many titles did he win? again, these guys all played different positions in different eras with varying talent around them, against watered down or shorter opposition...picking 1 BEST of all time is just silly....and i cant believe paul mokeski wasnt mentioned in this group...
@bob260505: What you said is what I want to leave clear. Jordan played against Magic, Bird, and Thomas.
MJ did not succeed until those players retired, or their original franchizes were dismantled.
How can you guys say Wilt and Bill played against "short scrubs"? I get mad when people start stating arguments without doing the proper research or at least know what they are writing about.
Oscar Robertson, this short scrub, averaged triple-double for a season which has never been done til' this day.
Bob Cousy was the first modern PG to play the game.
He was passing behind the back already, when you only known that a basketball was bounced horizontally, and that was it!
Jerry West was clutch all the way, reason for his nickname "Mr. Clutch".
Walt Frazier played in 7 All-Star games, named to 4 All-NBA first teams, and made 7 NBA All-Defensive first teams.
Rick Barry, in my personal opinion, I can't get enough of this guy, love him!
A scoring machine, led both NBA and ABA in PPG, All-Star MVP, rookie of the year, and more.
Above all, it's his style of playing, amazing.
I can keep going and going. Please do not go to any professional saying that such players are "short scrubs", you will get smacked in the face.
Please, before you take on players, get to know them, do research, watch NBA TV and look for hardwood classic games and more, WATCH them play, and then you have the right to take on them, just like me, but please, don't be saying things without knowing, you embarrass yourself.
Last edited by cesarms on September 2nd at 1:23 PM.
OK IM NEW BUT ONCE I READ THIS I HAD TO COMMENT.......WOW WOW WOW....HOW CAN U COMPARE MJ TO WILT..WILT WAS A CENTER. IN WILTS TIME HE WOULD TOWER OVER PEOPLE AND JUST DUNK ON THEM, KNOW WONDER POINTS WOULD COME SO EASY. MJ WAS A GAURD HE WOULD HAVE TO FIGHT 4 HIS PIONTS AND HE GOT THEM....AND IS STILL THE BEST PLAYER EVER.....THE NEXT PERSON WHO IS GONNA SURPASS HIM IS KOBE BRYANT........AND REALITY
say, idgafl890...besides the fact that you really should knock off the caps...(unless you meant to shout and in that case, shush!)
if you actually read the piece, you'd see my reasoning. and as Ive noted before, if youre of a certain age, you never saw Wilt.
One of my points is that, at the time in the NBA, nearly every team had a big bruising center (Thurmond, Bellamy, Russell) and Wilt STILL did his damage.
Oh, btw, if there's anyone who's capable of changing the game today -- or my original point, who's going to come close to what Oscar Robertson did to the game -- it's LeBron, not Kobe.
All the short "scrubs" never guarded Wilt. 7 foot hall of fame centers guarded Wilt. Wilt also didn't dunk all that much. His go-to moves were the fadeaway and the finger roll. Very few of you have educated opinions and just parrot what all the shoe companies. And while the refs gave Jordan extra perks, like travels, shoulder pushes, etc, they let all the players mug Wilt just because they thought a player of his dominance would ruin the league.
MJ did not make his teammates better. The year he left, they all scored more points, which is to be expected, but they also shot a HIGHER percentage with him gone (this happened in Washington as well). And don't try to pretend that he "made" Pippen. Without Pippen, Jordan has NEVER had a winning season and has a 1-9 playoff record. The year he left the Bulls, they slipped from 57 wins to 55 wins. You might say something like "yeah, but they didn't win the title, did they?". But don't you think any defending champ would fall if they lost their best player? You say MJ would have 2 more titles if he didn't play baseball? Then how come his first playoff season back they LOST to the Orlando Magic? No one ever remembers that. MJ had one of the best teams in the league, though. Apart from the Jazz, Rocekts, and maybe Knicks, the Bulls were the best possible fit for Jordan. And the year his team set the record for wins was just after expansion, in an EXTREMELY watered-down league.
Finally, when anyone says that Russell was a better baller than Wilt because "he was the ultimate team player" is just full of ####. Wilt completely changed
Oh yeah, and though many of you will refuse to accept it, Wilt was a better athlete than Jordan. Sure, he wasn't as flashy for the highlight films, but consider this: Wilt won the Big 8 high jump championship. He also threw the shotput 56 feet, ran the 100 meter dash in 10.9 seconds, the 440 in 49 seconds, the 880 in 1:58, and triple jumped over 50 feet. I dont know if any of you are big track guys, but those numbers are pretty damn phenomenal. He also ran a 50 mile race in Canada at over 60 years of age and is adknowledged as one of the better volleyball players to play the game. Jordan played basketball and only basketball successfully. Wilt wasn't just a tall freak, he was a ridiculous athlete. And he was faster, stronger, and a better jumper than Jordan.
First of all, it's ridiculous to compare post and perimeter players against each other. That said, MJ had a more indomitable will than Wilt and much more of a killer streak in him. Although Wilt's career started unbelievably strong, he seriously tailed off later on and MJ ended up with a more impressive career scoring average and much more consistency. MJ got more assists, rings, MVPs. We won't consider D, but suffice to say, Wilt had more blocks by far, MJ more steals, but probably not by that much. Wilt was obviously more dominating in the post, but MJ was suprisingly good down there as well, with an array of moves, and a killer fadeaway. All in all, give the edge to wilt for having a higher upper limit, but give the edge to MJ over the course of his career for much more sustained greatness and consistency.
uhhh, I'm almost 34....and all of those you mentioned above, with the exception of Kareem, who played only a few times against Jordan....NEVER PLAYED AGAINST JORDAN!! Nice try though.
While I personally think Wilt was the most overrated player to ever live when you consider what he would have done within today's "rules", I do agreee with you on a couple of points.
1.)Americans love to put someone on a pedestal far higher than they deserve but they also love to tear them down in time.
2.) Jordan was not the best player that ever lived. But he was the best shooting guard.
3.) The kids of today are getting worse than ever when it comes to annoiting someone the "best". They don't even need five season's before they simply declare someone like Lebron "better than MJ". It's a by product of the rapcrap generation. Brag, brag, brag, diss, diss, diss...never prove a damn thing...just yap yap yap.
Last edited by dustylaker on December 16th at 12:24 PM.
