Okay, I have finally come to the conclusion that Barry Bonds used steroids. It's time to strip him of all of his accomplishments. He is a cheater and as such should not be rewarded with the all-time HR record. With that said, I have one question for those of you who are so happy to see me condemn Barry.
What are you going to do with Roger Clemens when he is finally "outed" as a steroid user? Curt Schilling, an authority on everything, has already said that many pitchers are using steroids and appearing in September as fresh as April pitchers. Today, a judge has decided not to reveal the names on the Jason Grimsley affidavit, but the Los Angeles Times has already reported that Clemens, Pettitte, Tejada, and Gibbons' names are blacked out on that officially sealed document.
So if we assume this sealed grand jury document is as accurate as the one used to condemn Barry Bonds, what do we do with the Rocket? Should we just strip him of his Cy Young Awards that he won in 1997, 1998, 2001, and 2004? Or should we take away all seven? Fair is fair, and I think we should just take them all away. Who knows what else he was taking back in 1991! After all Clemens was 18-10 in 1991, but then he went 11-14 in 1993, 9-7 in 1994, 10-5 in 1995, and 10-13 in 1996. Then suddenly in 1997 he goes 21-7. That is some spike in performance! Of course it is all circumstantial, but how else does an old guy go 20-3 in 2001 and continued to dominate for three more years. It's just not natural if you ask me. How can anyone in their 40's get better and better or stay the same. Just tell me what each of you Bond's haters wants to do with Clemens after we bury Barry. I'm all in!
Your Innocent until Proven guilty, so until someone proofs Barry Bonds used performance enhancing drugs. It will be good for us to cheer Barry Bonds on. It's isnt' good to excuse someone of doing something if nobody has proof that it's been done. Barry Bonds needs this record, because with everything he went through in his career, this record will bring joy to barry bonds. Because their isn't a lot of fans that do that!!
I think Roger Clemens used performance enhancing drugs, but if it's true then there shouldn't be a place for him in the Hall Of Fame. Because he is a cheater, if it's true!!!
It will be interesting to see what reaction there would be to Roger Clemens and the rumors of steroid use. It is easy to rag on Bonds because of his personality or lack thereof, but will people abuse Clemens, who is a bit more likeabele(I by the way, hate the guy) than Bonds?
Just a side point, Clemens has pitched more like a 2 million dollar pitcher than a 20 million dollar pitcher.
The problem with listening to anyone from BALCO is that they've had what? 5 years now of talking in stages? It's almost like we're watching the Tour de babble with the Balco boys. They have zero credibility with me since they seem to bring up a new "witness" every time it's convenient.
socal, you've finally seen the light. Bonds and Conseco aren't going to lose their MVP's, so Clemens isn't going to lose his Cy Youngs. A pitcher is harder to judge, but I say strip him of his wins during the period he was guilty of first jucing and deny him the HOF.
When the baseball commissioner wanted to remove Eddie Gaedel's plate appearance from the record books in 1951, St. Louis Browns owner Bill Veeck argued passionately against such a move. To Veeck, taking one little walk off the books would forever alter the records of the game. It would mean (and I'm paraphrasing a thought he expressed in Veeck As In Wreck) that the pitcher threw a pitch to nobody, that Jim Delsing (I think) pinch-ran for nobody. For all eternity, that spot would be replaced by a black hole.
I'm against removing Bonds, Clemens, or any potential steroid users from the record books for a similar reason: like it or not, they played in those games. They put up those numbers. We can't change that now.
What we CAN do, however, is pass along our thoughts on the accomplishments of the tainted to our children and grandchildren. Despite the increased focus on sabermetrics and research over the past two decades, baseball is still a game that is passed along orally. Kids learn about past legends at the knees of relatives who saw them play.
If you don't like Barry Bonds and think he cheated, don't ask that his records be removed from the books - make a commitment to tell your children the stories of a player with prodigious natural talent who may have tainted his legacy by using illegal substances. Tell them that the most feared hitter you ever saw may have built that reputation on lies and deceit.
That's the way to deal with steroids and cheating in baseball, in my view. Tell the whole story and let the future generations make the decision for themselves if these men are worthy of further scorn or if their penance has been served. But let's not kid ourselves by thinking that erasing a bunch of numbers from the record books will change anything.
Regarding Clemens: you can't just look at his won-lost records from 1993-96 and say he wasn't a good pitcher. 1993 and 1995 were bad years, yes, but 1994 and (especially) 1996 were surprisingly good - his ERA+ of 177 in 1994 was actually the third highest of his career to that point.
Conversely, the 1999-2007 seasons were not as good as one might think (with the exception of 2005-06, which were absolutely nuts). His 128 ERA+ in 2001 would have ranked as the fourth-worst among his 13 seasons in Boston. An average of 5.74 runs of support a game helped put together that 20-3 record.
I think you raise a good question here, though - Clemens was otherworldly in 1997. It's often attributed to the fact that the Red Sox let him go without much of a fight and considered him done, but who knows what else he might have done to achieve those results.
Bmoy, I hope you know that I don't really want Barry to lose the HR record, because I do agree you can not go and wipe out records. If you do for Barry, you must for Roger, Perry, Sosa, Big Mac, and a host of others. Where does it stop? And I honestly think more pitchers use than hitters, but no one wants to address that, but Schilling admitted it.
socal - I didn't get that from the original post, but picked up on it after reading some of your comments. Glad we can agree that altering the record books is not the way to go. Wish everyone could see the sense in that.
I don't know who used more (pitchers or position players), but you're absolutely right: pitchers seem to get a free pass when the conversation turns to PED use.
What do we do with Clemens? We do the same thing we did to Bonds in early 2004: nothing. We sit and wait, let this thing play out.
Roger went 20-3 in 2001 thanks to playing with the Yankees. Without their great hitting his record would have been much worse. Regardless, his numbers were phenomenal from his mid 30's and thereafter.
Schilling is right about the pitchers because we have seen a lot of pitchers get caught since 2005. Not a surprise since a lot of pitchers have been breaking down moreso these days than ever before.
SoCal...I understand you sarcasm and you ask some great questions. So what do you suggest we do? If someone like Roger Clemens used steroids to gain an advantage, to elongate his career, to give him extra stamina, to help him gain strength in his throwing arm...then he is a CHEATER!!!
The pitchers mound is 60 feet 6 inches from home plate. If a pitcher was allowed to throw the ball from 55 feet, would that not be an unfair advantage?
If Brady Anderson is a .260 hitter with 15 home run per year power and the use of banned substances turns him into a .300 hitter with 50 homeruns...Isn't there something wrong? Is the answer simply to ignore the cheaters?
Ah Marty...how simple it would be. You sound like the Black Crows crusade to legalize weed. Forget the consequences and live and let live. Regardless of the side effects, just allow people to grow to enormous proportions, allow the hormones to turn people into the incredible hulk? Not the solution at all. If you want to watch incredibly large, artificial cartoon characters then just tune into pro wrestling. Let's keep it out of pro sports, college sports, high school sports and real life.
FP, if both are cheaters then you can blank both their records as far as I am concerned. What I do not think you can do is blank Bonds without a positive test if you aren't willing to blank Clemens without a positive test. I also don't think you can have a double standard and allow a guy like ####lord Perry to stay in the HOF and keep out guy slike Mark McGwire who never tested positive either.
CR, whose being hypocritical? I say you are because you stand behind Aaron who used amphetamines? So let me get this straight, it's okay for Aaron because he only used once? What if Lance Armstrong only doped once, would he not be a cheater and should lose one of Tour de France titles? Cheating is cheating. You can't sling mud all over Barry unless you are willing to do it to the other cheaters including Babe Ruth and his laminated bat.
Marty, I disagree. I am not for legalizing steroids.
FP, I say we can put an asterisk next to all of the players from the 1990's until 2003, and that includes Clemens. Ignore, no, acknowledge that steroids was a part of the game and just let the fans know it. But selectively wipe out one man's records is the essence of hypocrisy to me.
Loan, Ultra, I do think Clemens has used some juice, but it doesn't mean he used the same things as Bonds. Not all steroids make your feet grow and your head size. That is HGH. Who says that is what CLemens has used. There are plenty of steroids that aid in recovery, which is what Schilling was alluding too. Clemens is a great pitcher and his mechanics to throwing have nothing to do with steroids, but the ability to throw into his 40's and do it consistently without injury could be the result of taking several steroids. Ultra, you have to admit that could be so.
wait! what year did clemens make his debut with the yankees? if it was '97, that should explain the crazy 21-7 record, right?
strip all these guys who are "proofed" to have used, that's what i say.
QCisco- i think i heard recently (or read somewhere) canseco actually might be stripped of his MVP award. that's something they can easily do as a form of punishment, stripping their records from the books...not so much.
socal- what's facetious mean? (j/k...nevermind)
i also have to agree with chitown to a point. i dont like bonds myself, but he is a much more likeable guy than bonds is. either way, if he's one of 'em, he should get the same punishment as the rest.
If Clemens or ANY other player is found to have taken steriods willingly or unwillingly then their records should be stripped from the books. It is the only fair solution to the players who have played the game cleanly and by the rules. It's too easy for a player to claim: I didn't know. These are professional athletes who watch what they put in their bodies. For us to believe them when they yell ignorance would be ...well ...just ignorant.
Last edited by socratesofswat on July 28th at 10:01 AM.
I'm not saying that we put an asterisk next to anyone's name. To me it's a personal thing. The record books may list Bonds as the single season home run record but I still recognize that to be Roger Marris. I will NEVER recognize Bonds as the all time home run hitter. Aaron is the home run leader. He did not cheat.
I smoked weed in high school...that does not make me a pot head. Amphetemines are water soluable and exit the system within a day or two through sweat and urination. Some steroids and hormones are fat and blood soluable and store themselves in the fatty tissue or have an adverse affect on the heart.
The "clear" is a pure and simple attempt to use a banned substance that is non-detectable on a drug screening. The use of it is CHEATING.
CR, you have chosen an apt avatar because it epitomizes your hypocrisy. Batman would break any laws to bring someone to justice just as you will to prop up both Aaron and Babe Ruth. Barry Bonds will be the true home run king in a few short bats, and there is nothing you or Baf can do about it. You also have an apt avatar because you hide behind an alter ego. Your DrSports personna is as acidic as your CR one, and we all know it.
I hope to God, that nobody else will insult Nolan Ryan. B*tch please, Clemens cant hold Nolan's jock. With that said, I very strongly dislike Clemens, and I believe hes using/ has used/ used knowingly/ used unknowingly "illegal" performance enhancing drugs. Barry is only lower on my totem pole becuz Roger isnt good enough to threaten any legit records.
FP, so players who take amphetamines are not cheats? Just because its water soluble? Good one, they are not illegal either I guess. Lots of drugs are water solluble, that doesnt change them from being performance enhancing. Epinephrine is water soluble, but banned from Olympic competition, track and field, tennis and many others. The question is did it help Aaron on a day when he was down? Did it enhance his performance on any given day? If it did, he had an advantage over his opponents. You don't have to agree, but Mike Schmidt has admitted it and many others. AAron admitted trying it to give him a boost because his production was down in 1969. That is cheating.
Socrates, if you believe both should be stripped, then I am cool with that, but include Aaron.
Wwoolves, 7 Cy Youngs would be a modern era record.
Last edited by socalsportsfan on July 28th at 11:04 AM.
In other words Loan, the fact that Barry is over 40 should not be held against him either. If Barry being 43 should not be performing as well as he is without PE, then neither should Roger. THat is the only reason to bring up his age. Others point out that Barry's stats should be sliding as he approached 40 and not getting better. The same can be said of Clemens.
As for Blanda, he played into his 40's, but not as an everyday starter QB. Barry plays ever day, whereas Roger plays every 5th day.
Last edited by socalsportsfan on July 28th at 11:49 AM.
Socal, I was agreeing with you on that one, sort of, If someone keeps them self in great shape, exercises etc. I see no reason they can't play into their 30's, 40's. I feel the reason people diss Bonds is because of his Balco ties and the fact he has always came accross as a "jerk" to people. And to your last point, Bonds is not an everyday player anymore either. He never plays a day game after a night game, etc. His body IS breaking down.
There's been a ton of discussion about Barry's sudden power surge late in his career. Has anyone been discussing Cal Ripken's (hall of fame ceremony on Sunday) surge back in '91?
Bonds '00...49 home runs
'01...73 home runs
(an increase of 48%)
Ripken '90...21 home runs
'91...34 home runs
(an increase of 62%)
This is so stupid. Roger Clemens is doing steroids right? Why are we only hearing about it now instead of way back when. Besides the guy works out harder than any other pitcher alive we all know that. So what Clemens went through a rough stretch. He didnt have a very good hitting team those years behind him and every player goes through slumps in their carrer. No one said John Elway was using steroids at the end of his career when he won 2 super bowls. You know why, because he was great just like clemens. If you want to argue that a player like clemens cant be as good as he is at the end of his career than you have to look at everyone who was great at the end of their carrer and there are quite a few. Its all speculation people, and when the truth comes out and Clemens is innocent(which he already is cause he hasnt been foung guilty) then all you haters out there will have to live with the fact that you jumped on this bandwaggon. Im not saying anything about Bonds either, break that record bonds you are truly the best hitter I have seen of my era. If Bonds is guitly then they can deal with it then. This is one of those records that wasnt suppose to be broken support this guy!
socal, this is such a great post. It's too bad that such a large percentage of readers don't get what your point is all about.
The gist is, if I've read it right, is that we can't selectively persecute Bonds when so many others have used. Clemens is just an example. It could have been Luis Gonzales (check out his power surge and increase in hat size) or dozens of others.
Loan, actually Bonds has played many games right after night games. he only recently took some time off, I should know, I have had him on my fantasy team most of the year, but if you don't believe me, just click on his stats and you will see. He has played much more than you think.
Another bomb, Clemens name did come up back then, but the media hushed it up. As for football, no one cares about steroids in the NFL, look at Merriman who almost got the Defensive player of the year on steroids.
Sax, you get the candy prize. Luis Gonzalez had a huge power surge, as did Brady Anderson. Jaysisko alluded to Ripken's huge surge as well. You can't selectively condemn Bonds unless you are a hypocrite.
CR, I'm not dodging any issue. In fact, if memory serves me well, and it always does, this is my post and my blog. This is my topic, and it is you who can not fathom anyone but Bonds as being a steroid user. Clemens has had rumors about him for a long time, but you guys alwyas ignore them. Bonds has had his name leaked by a grand jury so two authors can make up all they want. The fact is that Victor Conte has said repeatedly he did not give Bonds steroids.. Bonds is still a free man and a two year grand jury can find nothing solid to convict, but you can believe all the rumors all you want.
Last edited by socalsportsfan on July 28th at 4:55 PM.
Well, let's see. Among baseball historians, the period leading up to the early 1900s is commonly known as the "dead-ball era." From then on is commonly referred to the "modern era." I've even heard some refer to post '69 as the "expansion era." (What to do about Bob Gibson's 1.12 ERA circa 1967 before they lowered the mound and expanded the league? Oh well, we'll address that later).
I agree about Clemens, which would then open up the argument that since pitchers were using too, Barry's soon-to-be-record, as well as his 73 in one season, is just that much more legit. So I've come up with this-from the '95 through the 2007 seasons, let's call it the "asterisk era" or, better yet, the "post-strike/enhanced era." I know some were using prior to '95, but hey, you gotta draw the line somewhere, don't you? Especially since it seems that after the '94 strike is when things REALLY got out of whack.
Now, if we could just have seen these sluggers use aluminum bats, we could have seen quite the spectacle.
Okay, I have finally come to the conclusion that Barry Bonds used steroids. It's time to strip him of all of his accomplishments. He is a cheater and as such should not be rewarded with the all-time HR record. With that said, I have one question for those of you who are so happy to see me condemn Barry.
What are you going to do with Roger Clemens when he is finally "outed" as a steroid user? Curt Schilling, an authority on everything, has already said that many pitchers are using steroids and appearing in September as fresh as April pitchers. Today, 
