This post has nothing to do with sports, but I feel the need to somewhat respond to Ultra's rant on George Bush. For me, I am just curious what all the hullabaloo is about. So what if George Bush is a liar? The fact is that everyone politician lies at some point and time. For me personally, I don't put much stock in any president and haven't since Ronald Reagan. The fact is that president's don't make laws; only Congress and the Senate can do that. The president can stand on his bully pulpit and push Congress to enact laws, but it is up to them. Then the Supreme Court will weigh in on whether or not it passes the "constitutional mustard" or not.
Speaking of Supreme Courts, isn't it ironic that everyone was worried about the two appointees of President Bush and how the court would somehow become a "right wing" fanatical entity. This is the same Supreme Court who ruled against the President on the detainees. The fact is that both of his appointees were good ones who swore to uphold the law and not an allegiance to a president.
As for a loss of privacy, anyone who thinks that the FBI or CIA or Ma Bell for that matter isn't already listening to what they want to is just plain naive. Wire tapping is nothing new and as long as my conversations are legal on the phone, I am not worried about my civil liberties. The last time I looked, the enemy was not our government, but those who attack our country and its innocent civilians.
See, this is true. However the level of discourse, especially among conservatives, makes it so that one may very well treat a "liberal" or "neocon" with as much distain as a terrorist. It's not good, and I'm sure nothing in the ensuing comments will change that.
People, in politics as in life there are very few things that are as black and white as some people make politics out to be. Convervatives have good ideas, Liberals have good ones also. And they also both have bad ones. But because of radio guys like Hannity and Limbaugh some people are literally afraid to vote for Democrats because they are afraid the next day they'll hand over the country to "the brown people". Just like people are acting like Bush is personally shoving people into internment camps.
How about this, instead of delving into another round of "Hey you suck cuz you belive that" "No, you do". How about we say something good about "the other team", nothing backhanded, something legitematly good. There are things, just look it up or something
Travis, I pretty much said the same thing on my blog. I said that while conservatives and liberals, and Republicans and Democrats will inevitably disagree on a broad number of issues, they should be able to agree on what reality is.
Socal, even if my phone isn't tapped right now, it's the principle. We give up right after right after right. Where does it end? We gave our President absolute power to deem any American -- you, me, our mothers -- an "unlawful enemy combatant" and arrest us, detain us without a fair trial and representation at a place like Gitmo, and torture us to the point of mental and physical trauma.
Will it happen? It hasn't yet. Will it? Most likely not. But as Olbermann pointed out in the commentary, Americans believed Woodrow Wilson when he passed the Alien and Sedition Act, and then used it to arrest newspaper writers. What's to stop the President from arresting me right now for being dissenting?
If you want to give up your rights, fine. I still want my absolute, 100% right to speak out against the government without fear of repercussion. I should never be afraid of my government, and I fear the Bush administration more than I fear the terrorists or North Korean nukes.
Good post Socal. My country has some responsibility in what has gone on with allowing terrorists into your country. We let pretty much everyone in.
Keith Olbermann was full of #### when he did sports on FOX and he really has not changed since. If you are a dolt as a sports guy you will not become a genius news guy overnight.
I liked Keith on ESPN, but don't care for him that much on MSNBC. As for Canada, I do worry more abou terrorists coming over from the North than I do from Mexico. It is pretty simple to come across the border.
Ultra, I really do not like giving up liberties and I would agree with you that as Americans we should not have our liberties curtailed. As for us losing the rights to an attorney, a phone call, reading of Miranda, and all of those things associated with being arrested, I really don't think that this new bill will apply to ordinary citizens. It is aimed at terrorists. Can it one day be used against citizens? Maybe, but if it is, I feel like the ACLU will stand up and try to shoot it down. I bet they do it with terrorists before it ever reaches me.
While I understand your inability to understand the truth it pains me.
Aside from 12 out of the last 30 years, Republicans have controlled the White House.
If you study what happens when Democrats take control, you will find the reason the country has not unraveled from poor leadership. Democrats gain control just in time to save the country, just as surely as Adam Vinatieri saved the Patriots #### in the last minute of those big games.
The only reason we didn't collapse under Reagan: A Democratic Congress.
The reason Americans are in real trouble today: A Republican Congress.
Olbermann's point is that the new Military Commissions Act makes those little dips into your privacy even more dangerous.
When you take the protection of law away from anyone, you take it away from all off us.
The new act gives the President authority to dismiss and disregard judicial protections.
If the President chose to for example, he could name anyone in America "terrorist supporters" and send them to Gitmo without any trial, legal representation, and without telling anyone why or for how long.
That means anyone the President chooses. Say for example, by following current policy, all drug offenders in the country. From 80 year old medical marijuana users to your local crackhead. It is ludicris to believe the local pothead is sending money to Bin Laden. (The heroin user does, but the government doesn't make that distinction under current policy.)
There is also no safeguard against the President from using his new given authority to lock up members of the press or
Last edited by brianblack on October 20th at 4:49 PM.
Brian, even if what you say is true and the President can lock us all up, there is a little matter of having to lock us up for doing something wrong. No one has thrown out that we have to break a law to be put in jail and to be kept there. In fact, I welcome the day I am locked up illegally because I will win a huge verdict in a civil trial.
This is radical extremism and scare tactics taken to a new level. No sane person is suggesting the president will lock up civilians. This is just a tool to fight terrorism. It needs to be used carefully and cautiously or it will go away as quickly as it was enacted. This country will not stand for it, or more importantly its citizens. We would have a civil war.
So do you condone the terrorists who behead our men and women overseas? Do you condone them killing journalists BrianBlack? At least be as vocal and criticize them as you are at condemning America. We treat prisoners of war better here than in any country in the world.
Secondly, if you do believe in the Geneva Conventions then you have to acknowledge that we are at war. It amazes me how some people want us to abide by the Geneva Conventions but do not believe we are at war. If this is not a war, then we don't abide by them. If it is a war, then get outraged at how they handle their prisoners.
Lastly, please do not resort to insults. calling me "ignorant" in your first comment will get every comment deleted in my post if you continue. Argue your points and stick to them. Personal attacks are not allowed.
Last edited by socalsportsfan on October 20th at 4:28 PM.
So 12 out of 30 is what? Close to 40% of the time a Democrat has been in power. Hmmm, that sounds like a lot to me. By the way, it is exactly 40%.
So 40% of the time the White house was Democratically controlled and the Congress was also controlled by democrats during Jimmy Carter's reign. Maybe that is why home interest rates were at 21% during that time. Seems to me Reagan brought the American Dream back to reality.
Last edited by socalsportsfan on October 20th at 4:31 PM.
The problem is that Bush made the war bigger and more complicated when he abandoned the victims of 9/11 and placated Cheney and Haliburton by going to Iraq.
As someone whose father spent the better part of my life in the Gulf, I am increasingly dismayed by the arrogance of lemmings such as yourself that follow so blindly over the cliff.
Last edited by brianblack on October 20th at 4:34 PM.
Is the American Dream for most Americans to live without adequate healthcare?
Is it the Amercian Dream for Americans not born to wealthy parents to live in poverty?
Is it the American Dream to use religion to divide this country?
Is it the American Dream to watch thousands of poor black New Orleans resident wading through water created by the social warfare being conducted by the wealthy minority?
If Americans spent less time worrying about whether Bill and Ted get married and more time about the kid living in a shack in the 9th Ward this country wouldn't be so messed up right now.
Do I hate America? NO. I love America and to see what it has become pains me.
To disagree with Republicans doesn't mean we are placating to terrorists.
That is where your argument is flawed.
I suggest you actually read the Olbermann special comment before just falling back into the same habit of becoming a lemming.
Here's a little taste of the truth:
"We have lived as if in a trance.
We have lived as people in fear.
And now—our rights and our freedoms in peril—we slowly awake to learn that we have been afraid of the wrong thing.
Therefore, tonight have we truly become the inheritors of our American legacy.
For, on this first full day that the Military Commissions Act is in force, we now face what our ancestors faced, at other times of exaggerated crisis and melodramatic fear-mongering:
A government more dangerous to our liberty, than is the enemy it claims to protect us from." - Kieth Olbermann 10/18/06
For the complete comment:
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15321167/
Last edited by brianblack on October 20th at 4:47 PM.
BrianBlack, I'd like to echo everything you just said. I had some responses prepared, but I'd just be repeating what you have said. Feel free to join the conversation on this topic on my blog if you haven't.
"And Bush bombed the Trade Centers, and the Pentagon, and we never landed on the moon, and the Earth is flat.
There, now ultra has nothing to write about anymore..."
That's a strawman argument if I've ever heard one.
Did I ever say any of those things?
Last edited by UltraMegaOK1988 on October 20th at 4:45 PM.
SoCal, this is an emotional issue. Very simply, we can enforce our laws and fight terrorism without abandoning the ideals this country believes in. We don't need to torcher people, or deny them their due process. If we abandon what we believe in when it's not convenient, do we really believe in it? I certainly agree that POW's should be handled differently, and under current law they are. But the purpose of this bill seems to be to blur the line between terrorists and dissidents. We need to tread carefully when we start taking away rights. You said that if this happens there will be an upheaval. Consider this comment part of the upheaval.
"The American people expect me to do everything in my power under our laws and Consitution to protect them and their civil liberties and that is exactly what I will continue to do, so long, as I'm the president of the United States."
- Dubya
The fact is the rules of the game have changed since 9/11. The post 9/11 president needs to be forceful and assertive.
In order for us to be safe from terrorism, the government must take away and limit certain liberties to keep entact our rights. Civil rights are more important then civil liberties.
"Civil rights are more important than civil liberties."
Basic civil liberties include freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, and freedom of speech. There are also the rights to due process, to a fair trial and to privacy. (Link)
Examples of civil rights and liberties include the right to get redress if injured by another, the right to privacy, the right of peaceful protest, the right to a fair investigation and trial if suspected of a crime, and more generally-based constitutional rights such as the right to vote, the right to personal freedom, the right to freedom of movement and the right of equal protection. (Link)
They sound equally as important to me. We should never have to give up any of our rights, ever. Since when did becoming a dictatorship become okay?
To Bill Clinton lieing during a grand jury testimony about his sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky to Abraham Lincoln declaring that he was against giving blacks equal rights in order to win election of 1860.
It all comes down to heaven and hell and soda crackers, man. Especially the soda crackers. Never forget the soda crackers.
More importantly, find me the human who's never told a lie. George Bush is a bad person, and I'll defend to the death that fact. News flash: So's everyone else.
Socal: I try not to get involved in these political debates but I have to say something regarding the comment you made to Brian.
Brian, even if what you say is true and the President can lock us all up, there is a little matter of having to lock us up for doing something wrong. No one has thrown out that we have to break a law to be put in jail and to be kept there. In fact, I welcome the day I am locked up illegally because I will win a huge verdict in a civil trial.
Socal, innocent people are thrown in jail every day. Here, in Florida, and this is just one instance, there were TWENTY innocent men who languished on death row. The state of florida finally did the right thing and investigated, found the men innocent and set them free. Yes, they did recieve money, but do you really believe that makes up for twenty years of your life wasted? I'm not going to discuss the bill George W. decided on, but since this has happened before, the powers that be now have a license to abuse the power that they have been given. Innocent people DO get put in jail, are convicted, and most of the time are never given their lives back. Believe it.
"This peace group, according to the document, was planning ... 'guerrilla theater and other forms of subversive propaganda' at the Fort Lauderdale Air and Sea Show."
"What? The land of the free?
Whoever told you that is your enemy.
...
Yes I know my enemies
They're the teachers who taught me to fight me
Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission
Ignorance, hypocrisy, brutality, the elite
All of which are American dreams"
Last edited by UltraMegaOK1988 on October 20th at 8:00 PM.
"Ultra, I really do not like giving up liberties and I would agree with you that as Americans we should not have our liberties curtailed. As for us losing the rights to an attorney, a phone call, reading of Miranda, and all of those things associated with being arrested, I really don't think that this new bill will apply to ordinary citizens. It is aimed at terrorists."
Perhaps -- but governments have historically abused power. More power to the government means less to the people -- it might not hurt us now, it might not hurt us in ten years; but, sooner or later, if we don't stand up and say, "You can't take away our rights," we'll be too late.
As Ultra pointed out, the government was reading emails being sent by anti-war peace groups -- how far will we let this go? This isn't about Republican/Democrat -- it's about our freedom: our's! Whether it is Clinton or Bush, Reagan or Kennedy, we cannot submit to losing our rights. That's the bottom line.
Socal...me and you have had our differences in the past...but I must say, with your last few posts, I've grown to appreciate you more and more. You seem to be on the same level with Bush as I am. While it's ridiculous to think that he is a GREAT president and plays by the rules nonstop, the idea that people can just force blame onto him all over the place is ridiculous. This man, no matter what the conspiracy theorists say, is doing is utmost to make this country the best possible place to live. Have any of you naysayers ever been responsible for 300,028,521 people and counting? Do you realize the amount of stress this man is under? Not all of his decisions have turned out for the best, but to blame him for all of this stuff after all he has done for our nation is ridiculous and should be condemned. Thank God for you socal...it's about time someone came out and said it.
"Have any of you naysayers ever been responsible for 300,028,521 people and counting?"
DMitch, Bush ran for President, he knew what he was getting himself into.
Do you not blame an experienced waiter for messing up your order because the restaurant is crowded?
Bush is not wholly to blame for most of what's been going on in this country -- that blame should be placed on the Republican party, specifically, the Republican Congress who will approve anything that Bush, Rove, Cheney and the rest of the nest of vipers push in front of them.
I don't think we ever insinuated that Bush is wholly to blame. We use Bush, however, as the figurehead for such a group, and that he is.
Ultra, we disagree on so many levels in regards to this country, but you have every right to voice your concerns.
Brian, you tipped your hat with your beliefs when you say that the people of NO were under water because of conservatives and Republicans. The mayor of that fine city is a democrat. The governor of the state is a democrat and the hurricane was neither republican nor democrat. The hurricane caused the water, not any national party. The people of the great state of LA, of which I was a long time resident, were too stupid to leave. NO was built under water and when a caterogy 5 hurricane is on its way you leave.
Cindi, people are imprisoned every day wrongfully, but do you honestly live in fear of being put in prison? I don't. I live my life without fear or worry.
pardon me as i havent skimmed the comments - i dont wanna get aught up in any one else's argument. but my question is what do you have against America? we have a constitution which is sacrosanct. i dont know if your niave or cynical - but either way its wrong. i rarely pass judgement. but after hearing you all talk about the American flag - knowing that none of you has sacrificed anything for said flag - these commens irritate me. youre right, the president is not the enemy. he is being controlled by the enemy. the man is a complete #### who consistently confuses Medicare and Medicaid - something everyone should know. he's too dumb to be the enemy. but lets not act like a president cant make policy. every year the president submits a budget. he holds a veto knowing full well no congress on his side is gonna spit in his face. so lets keep it real here. we can google all the legislature G-Dub has enacted. not to mention his executive orders. The supreme court can only step in if a suit is filed. but with the recently suspended habeus corpus - none of us have the right see a lawyer. i dare anyone to ask me the chances of that happening in america. we can google that too. or i can drag you any hood in america where cops routinely black bag people and then drop them off weeks later with no charges. you wann keep it real. lets keep it real. i was the smart one, i got out of the army after 4 years. my wife and brothers are still in. i'd hate to think that my wife is training to hunt the enemy to protect people who donteven want their rights. why SHOULD she take a bullet for you
Demon, lets keep it real. If the cops are already dragging black people and locking them up, then this is not a real change in policy. The fact is that people are mistreated all the time, but you and I both know that the suspension of the Habeus Corpus is not aimed at the average citizen. It is aimed at those who are potential terrorists. Will some innocent people ever be locked up. Probably so, but no more so than is happening every day as you and Cindy both testify too. So everyone needs to chill that thinks our freedoms just went out the window.
As for George enacting legislation, he has only vetoed one bill sent to him or threatened too. For the most part he has signed every bill that has come across his desk whether it was Republican or Democratic. Don't say every bill was one he believe in either because that is just not true. The same goes for Bill Clinton. He signed bills he wasn't 100 per cent for either. Presidents are like Coaches. They get way too much credit when things go wrong, and not enough credit when things go well.
"Ultra, we disagree on so many levels in regards to this country, but you have every right to voice your concerns."
I like that we can disagree respectfully. I've seen it come and go, and come back, and then go again in this blogosphere, but it's always been consistent with you.
"Brian, you tipped your hat with your beliefs when you say that the people of NO were under water because of conservatives and Republicans."
I know what you're trying to say, Socal, but you can't deny that the federal government #### up big-time with Hurricane Katrina. FEMA -- Federal Emergency Management Agency. Federal, a.k.a. government. They were so slow in responding to the hurricane, and didn't do a ####-up job when they got there.
FEMA isn't to blame 100% for the mess in the Gulf Coast, but they get the majority of the blame, not that playing the blame-game ever does any good.
Heck, they couldn't even get it right with the recent snowstorm in Buffalo.
"So everyone needs to chill that thinks our freedoms just went out the window. "
Ultra, I agree FEMA was miserable, but if you are honest with me you will agree they have been consistently bad for as long as I can remember. I grew up in the Gulf States and I have survived many hurricanes. I went through Camille in 1969, Frederick, Ivan, Dennis, and Andrew more recently. In every case, the feds were not the primary source of help, but the state government. Anyway, we can all agree that the response to NO was very slow on all accounts, but I in no way believe it was racially motivated nor was it a huge conspiracy. It was just poor management by all branches of the government.
Portman, I have said it before and I will say it again. The moment you attack me personally, I delete the comment. If you can remain as Ultra and keep your comments to your beliefs, then I am fine with it and will debate you. Insulting me just lowers my respect for you. Feel free to insult me all you want on your blog space.
Last edited by socalsportsfan on October 20th at 11:27 PM.
Racially motivated? No way. Fiscally motivated? You better believe it. It just so happens that most of the poor people were African-Americans.
And it was the press (conservative press, mostly) that was racist.
Regarding FEMA and its reputation for incompetence -- are you saying that FEMA's incompetence with Hurricane Katrina is somehow acceptable or less important because they have a history of underperforming?
The Federal Emergency Management Agency, and every other government agency should be held to the highest standard each and every time. And I do think they should have been dealt with earlier.
Bush deserves blame for putting Michael Brown in charge of FEMA, whose qualifications were highlighted with his overseeing of the International Arabian Horse Association. Now that is a guy I want handling emergencies.
Last edited by UltraMegaOK1988 on October 20th at 11:31 PM.
Ultra, I read the info in your link and once again this is nothing new. I think I stated above that our government has been listening in on us for a long time and checking up on us. The problem here is this is upsetting to you while for me, I don't really care as long as they are reasonable and don't act out on bad information. Was a Quaker ever arrested for an email? How about the anti war group in Dade county? Nope, because nothing was found in the emails that was a real threat, but they do read and investigate. For me, I have nothing to worry about in my emails or my phone calls.
I will agree that I can see how it bothers someone who values their liberties, but I do think that George Bush is at least honest and telling us he listens in whereas I believe Bill Clinton and every former president was doing the same thing without telling us.
What I am saying about FEMA's incompetence is that there is a long history of it and that should tell everyone that is a conspiracy theorist to stop accusing Bush of trying to wipe out Black people. Is he responsible for hiring Michael Brown, yes. Was that a bad hire, yes. Should Bush get bashed for that, yes. Has he been bashed, yes. Did it have anything to do with race, no. Was it Fiscal? Everything revolves around money in this county with politicians from both parties.
So, to encapsulate, FEMA should be over hauled, but I still think the state of LA and its governor got off "Scott" free. They even re-elected Nagin. The people of NO are not very bright if you ask me, and I lived in Baton Rouge for 8 years.
No one was more open about B.S.ing you than Bill Clinton. Bush tries to hide it, but, obviously, he was never a great hider when he played hide and seek.
"I think I stated above that our government has been listening in on us for a long time and checking up on us."
And this is okay?
Tell me, how is "guerrilla theater and other forms of subversive propaganda" threatening? We should be allowed to have guerrilla theater and subversive propaganda because we have freedom of speech. And those terms -- guerrilla theater and subversive propaganda -- are loaded terms. They could have said "an act" for theater and "information" for propaganda.
Ultra, did anyone try to stop them from having freedom of speech? You are trying to make it out that by someone listening in we have lost the freedom of speech.
They should be flattered someone is actually listening. The very nature of speech is you want it heard.
Last edited by socalsportsfan on October 20th at 11:43 PM.
"there is a long history of it and that should tell everyone that is a conspiracy theorist to stop accusing Bush of trying to wipe out Black people."
You're focusing on a very select few, then. I think most realize that if there was any motivation, it was financially motivated, not racially.
But, other than targeting those few conspiracy theorists still clinging on to their stories, you're on board that FEMA struck out big-time with Hurricane Katrina, right?
"They even re-elected Nagin. The people of NO are not very bright if you ask me"
To be fair to Nagin, a lot of criticism he got was misappropriated. He was the Alex Rodriguez of Hurricane Katrina, so to speak.
I will agree he has said some things he probably should have thought through, but just look at our President. He said he wasn't concerned with Osama bin Laden six months after 9/11.
"You are trying to make it out that by someone listening in we have lost the freedom of speech."
If they act on their su####ion, then yes, it is freedom of speech.
"They should be flattered someone is actually listening. The very nature of speech is you want it heard."
The people who were checking their E-Mails weren't the kind of audience they're looking for. They're right-wing spies of the Bush administration... think their minds are..
I will keep it to principle before personalities SoCal, I don't mean to personally offend, I apologise: You cannot minimize the lies that this President has done. I hear the right-wing state Clinton lied, yet his lies did not lead us into a failed war that is going to cost us dearly. Are you aware that there is 8.8 BILLION dollars unaccounted for in Iraq? We are slowly having our rights eroded, the loss of habeas corpus, a legal concept that dates back to the Magna Carta. Special commisions will decide who are enemy combatants, the special commissions will be formed by Bush himself. Secret prisons, the act of rendition, which is the ability to #### any citizen and take them to another country and torture them, it just happened to a Canadian citizen who was released after 14 months. What is happening is bigger than Katrina, even Iraq. When you erode the basic framework of a nation (The Constitution) and centralize all power, then We the People lose our ability to have a say in OUR Govt. Thanks for the forum.
Ultra, we have #### groups in schools. We have socialist groups in colleges. You can print porn, read it on the web, have pay per view porn 24 hours a day. You can go to every college campus in America and find people from every radical belief protesting on any given Sunday against eating animals to environmental issues and the "freedom" of speech lives on. I do not feel our freedom in this area has ever been severely tested, not yet.
I do agree Fema blew it big time, but I disagree with you if you think Nagin just made a few mistakes. He had ample time to find drivers. If he could not find drivers for idle buses, then how can a president who is miles away get help.
Let's all just be honest...All politicians left or right, are full of #### I am so uninspired right now as to who I should be voting for. There shoudl be a law against negative campaign ads. These politicians do not have the people's best interest in minds, they are trying to line their own pockets, on both sides of the aisle. I am a republican mostly becuase i believe in letting businesses hold on to their money and I dont believe in Nat'l healthcare. Lets have an intelligent debate on these issues instead of the republicans calling the democrats idiots and vice versa. Why can't politicians discusss the issues instead of trying to find smut on the other candidates. Last time I lookd, politics and running our great nation was not supposed to be like WWF.
