I hate to say, I told you so, but today investigators are saying Jason Grimsley has alleged that Roger Clemens and several other prominent players used steroids. Earlier this year when I wrote several posts on Roger Clemens using steroids, many said that there was no evidence that he used these banned substances. People have no problem believing a man in his forties can pitch with the dominance Roger has possessed over the last three years but balk at Barry because he can still hit 30-40 HR a season. Well maybe Roger performed so well because he was taking HGH as well. Maybe Roger is good, but not that good without the juice.
Many people believe Barry should have an asterisk by his name in the record books while others think he should not hold any records. They believe he should never darken the steps of Cooperstown. So should Roger hand back all of those Cy Young’s? Should his teams forfeit the wins in which he pitched? Should the Yankees have one of their World Series titles stricken from the record? Should Clemens be a sure fire first ballot hall of famer?
Along with Clemens, Grimsley has identified Miguel Tejada. This is the same Tejada who injected Raffy Palmeiro with “vitamin B-12”, or so that is what Palmeiro believed was being injected into his derriere. Maybe Raffy was telling the truth and it was Tejada on the juice. Andy Pettite is also named as an athlete who was taking steroids. Maybe Jose Canseco was right when he said over half of MLB players are taking steroids!
For me, it does not really matter. I believe the only way to rectify the records is to put an asterisk by every record set in the nineties; pitchers as well as batters. My contention has long been that those who condemn hitters give pitchers a free pass. Well tonight we see that two very respected pitchers are being accused.
For those who say it is just accusations, remember the words of Palmeiro who said, “I have never used steroids.” Barry has been accused but never tested positive. If you want to wait for a positive test on Clemens, then give Barry the same latitude. I have laid out my arguments in prior posts. Clemens weight gain, no loss of velocity on his fastball, and ability to pitch into his forties are all signs of potential steroid abuse. You may not want to believe that Roger Clemens is guilty of steroid use, but there is an old saying in the south, “Where there is smoke; there is fire.” Right now the Astros dugout is a raging inferno.
Like you said, it doesn't matter. Whatever has happened can't be changed. I'm sure more names will be added in the future...usually by those that are caught, or those that are looking for attention. Some may be the truth...and others may add big names just for the sake of grabbing attention.
"Where there's smoke, there's fire". For me, that means for the whole era, not just those that are publicly accused. That's a tough pill to ####, believing that your favorite player could very well have used illegal substances. And certainly, there were productive players that didn't use them. But we'll never know...
It shows how big a problem HGH is going to be for sports. The unions accept urinalysis, but not blood tests which they view as intrusive.
At this point you have to keep an open mind about it, considering that the government had Grimsley up against the wall. But, if this goes like alot of investigations, they will next turn to the people he named. If one of them starts naming names it could get real ugly, real fast.
Socal You can now count me in as a sceptic when it now comes to Clemens. Truthfully I had a tiny feeling at the back of my mind but there wasn't a single thread of evidence there before with which to make the allegations stick.
If now what we're being told is true then Clemens needs tell the truth, likewise Pettite . Once again it takes one of the paeans to make the whole world sit up and take notice.
Let's also see if the press will hound Clemens the same way they've hounded Bonds.
Then it'll be also emblematic of what's wrong in sports all around from the sport itself down to the journalists that cover it.
ramp aka tophatal
Last edited by rampantfanatic on October 1st at 6:21 AM.
Shooter, MLB turned a blind eye to steroid use in the 90's the same way they turned a blind eye to amphetamines in the 60-70's. You could actually go back and put an asterisk next to Aaron's era.
Dudski, I put as much stock in Grimsley as everyone else puts in Greg Anderson and Victor Conte. They cut a deal and so is Grimsley. Tejada's name came up with Raffy but Palmeiro was not willing to say it was steroids because he said he never took them. Grimsley played in Baltimore with Tejada. Anyway, it is going to get real ugly now that those names are mentioned.
Ramp, I am counting on you and we will see what the media does. THey hate Barry but love Roger, so we will see if they are hypocrites now.
Demon, school has me so busy this year and also I lost a bit of passion for this blogging on Fox because I hate the way they shamelessly promote their own blogs over ours. But I am still around. I see your comments and your work. Thanks for reading.
i'm not saying i dont believe it, and i'm not saying i do....here's my adopted approach to steroid/HGH accusations.
1. why is it that the investigation cant turn up any real evidence, but when a previously accused violator drops someone else's name, it automatically becomes the truth?
2. the difference between the clemens allegation and bonds' is, even though the grand jury testimony was leaked, i'd believe evidence from a legal proceeding before i'd take the word of an admitted user of a banned substance.
either way, its another black eye for the game of baseball. clemens has been 1 of the players mlb wanted to use as an example for other players to look up to, as well as the fans. with 1 simple allegation, they've taken another huge hit to their credibility.
if anything comes of this, it will likely put an end to the speculation of clemens coming back yet again next year.
I really don't trust anyone in this steroid deal. I think the reason that pitchers are forgotten is because it's all about the home run for so many fans. Most people think that roids are only used to hit a lot of homers, not to make more durable pitchers.
I still think that unless their is a positive test, they shouldn't be shamed, and that's counting Bonds.
Maybe it'd be easier just to legalize steroids?
I just think it's a shame that those players who WERE clean in the last decade will always be among the accused. The juicers ruined it for them.
Cuz, Roger's name is coming up in an investigation, not just a rumor. The Feds are prosecuting these guys now and Roger better watch out. Barry is going to be immune from all of this because he used steroids when they were not banned from baseball, but Grimsley's names are during the bann and Roger may be in worse trouble when this is all over. As for believing, I have never said that I don't believe Barry took, but I do believe many pitchers use HGH as well. For that matter, HGH is legal with a prescription and I firmly believe one of these players will eventually say that had a doctor's excuse to use it.
MrNFL, I am not for legalizing them, but I just hate hypocrisy. Everyone hates Barry, but loves Roger. Records have always been set with players looking for an edge. For Babe it was his bat, for Perry it was a dab of vaseline, for Mike Schmidt it was "greenies", and for today's players it is HGH and other designer steroids. They should be tested, suspended, and even kicked out for repeated violations, but no asterisks
I've always felt something was up with Roger ever since he arrived in Toronto to pitch for the Blue Jays. However, the difference between him and Barry is Barry has been going through this a lot longer than Roger. At one point in time, people were saying what they are saying about Roger right now: evidence. After BALCO and the leaked testimony our take on Bonds exceeds the point of innocent until proven guilty. Maybe Roger will get to that point but until then its his word against Grimsleys.
And no, an asterisk will not be put on Hank for amphetamines. There's a difference between that and the HGH.
I will say this: If people worked just as hard to get other athletes the way they've gone after Barry, there would be more cheaters caught.
Dan, how do we known it is just recently that Roger has used? After all, you said yourself you felt things were funny when he came to Toronto, and that was years ago. As for Barry, he is still innocent until he tests positive. The alleged steroids were legal in MLB at the time. That goes for Roger too. Legally should he get in trouble for possessing and using things that may have been illegal in this country, well, then half of America's youth should get into trouble for using Pot.
mean, thanks for stopping in. Miss seeing your posts around here.
Hey Mean, you can still call too. I have thought about dialing that number several times. I was on my way to LA two weeks ago, and then my son broke his arm and I had to cancel my trip. I will be up there some time in November though and maybe we can get together.
Hey Socal, the waters are murky, very murky. I saw some tape of Clemens' first 20 strikeout game in 1986, when he was just a pup, and he looked nothing like the heavy-set, stocky guy he later turned into. He was always big, but looked much different back then.
Obviously everyone changes over 23 years, but the difference was almost as startling as the difference between the Barry Bonds of his early Pittsburgh days and the Barry Bonds of today....
OMG you guys actually believe this #### jason grimsley???? he's just jeolous that roger clemens and andy pettite is way better then him so he's trying to drag them down, why else would accuse two astros, whats his big beef with them???
Ultra, I would agree. I think I have stated the same thing on amphetamines in several posts. For many, those little green pills provide more juice than any steroid.
HalfBaked, I would completely agree that Clemens looks nothing like he did as a youngster. The problem is that no matter what people say or think, we all put on weight as we get older, but Roger and Barry have added muscle.
HTown, did you believe Raffy? Do you believe Barry? How about Big Mac? You pick and choose who is telling the truth to the feds, then I choose not to believe the transcripts on Bonds. Just one person saying he did, his jealous mistress.
when did I ever accuse barry??? Honestly I don't think we'll ever truly know who did what so you don't have to call me names for no reason, I don't believe anything unless theirs cold, hard evidence, or they come out and admit it
What is crazy in all sports, is that all players do what it takes to gain an edge. It happens in the MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL, Hell it happens in NASCAR too. It's a big area between the legal performance enhancers and the illegal ones.
Hello, Warren Spahn, Babe Ruth, Nolan Ryan, Paul Molitor, Bert Blyleven, Edgar Martinez, Dave Winfield, Tony Gwynn, these guys have had a nice career into their 40's. The difference? They were not intimidated by the need to be in the spotlight. Pettite and Clemons have been accused of being over the hill, past their prime, by our esteemed media. A little less beligerence by reporters who seem to know everything--and have seemingly the right to accuse players of being primadonnas or slackers, it is not surprizing that players will do anything to remain on everyone's good side. I never fail to be amused by sports reporters who seem to have the answers to every teams problems...why are they reporters instead of coaches...or still players?
I hate to say I'm happy about it, but I'm happy I gave up on MLB after the '94 strike. How 'bout that latest accusation, Bud Selig!
As I mentioned in previous posts, as you know, MLB is reaping what they have sown. I wish I could say I cared. But I thankfully made a clean break from the best game in the world, which was not easy, believe me.
It is hysterical now how everyone is all of a sudden Nostradamus. Everyone jumping all over Clemens over something someone ( who will probably have a book out next month) said, not over a failed test. It is unfortunate this day and age that you cant say for sure that anyone is clean, and even if any of these guys are, they are now guilty in the eyes of a lot of the #### sports fans out there. Now Clemens throwing the bat at Piazza is roid rage not adrenaline. His weight gain is from steroids not being middle-aged, I hope you guys also looked at Seaver and Ryan who were both good in there forties and heavier. I must say "cheers" to all of you psychics out there who knew it all a long...lol
By the way in case anyone didn't already know the earth is not flat, and believe it or not America was once ruled by the English.
Ckid, my links above show my posts where I said Clemens was on the juice. As for it is just something someone said and no positive test, Barry has never tested positive either. It is only the word of his mistress that has him in trouble. No failed tests no evidence or he would have been indicted months ago. Instead the feds go after him on tax evasion.
Htown, not saying you specifically, but plenty have accused Bonds.
Clarajean, the players you mentioned were all playing in an era when spitball, vaseline, and amphetamines were in vogue. We don't know which ones used them, but if you read Mike Schmidt's book you will see players down through the ages cheated and used whatever gave them the edge. Do you think any of those players was different? I think not. NOlan Ryan is the only one I truly believe was clean, but who knows about him either. He used alot of advil!
Welcome back, you have been gone for quite some time, excellent post, I am surprised at the accusations but really should not be, anyone in the past 15 years or so could be under a microscope, as I have said before though, the true villian is MLB for turning a blind eye (at least it is looking that way). It shows the sad state of baseball over the span of most of my generation. Nice to have you back.
socal- i was speaking in general terms about believing what grimsley says is true...there was plenty of coverage on it already this morning. it kind of reminds me of the t.o. thing last week, when everyone jumped to the conclusion that he tried to commit suicide. whether that was true or not, or this is true or not, remains to be seen (although neither will likely ever be 100% believable).
the other thing is, even if grimsley gave these names to the investigators, it doesnt mean he's telling the truth...i guess i just have trouble believing he would even have 1st hand knowledge of guys like clemens, pettitte, brian roberts and other guys who were not teammates of his.
its not that i dont believe its true, but grimsley isnt someone i'd take on their word...i guess thats what i'm trying to say.
Born, I agree that MLB and Selig specifically are the main culprits.
Cuz, they were team mates at NY. Pettite and Clemens were with Grimsley there and then Grimsley did a stint in Baltimore with Brian Roberts and Tejada. So, he had first hand knowledge. It's not like Barry has any other players saying they saw him inject, just his ex mistress. She has an axe to grind. Why is it so hard for you to believe that Roger would use? He wants to remain competitive, earns 18 million a year, and has an ego a mile high. But your argument is not valid, they were team mates.
Socal even with my feeling I did not accuse him of anything. The real point I was making was with Barry he has been in this whole steroid speculation ever since he passed Big Mac. With Clemens, he hasn't really been in deep with this the way Bonds has. I remember when Bonds got into this and people had his back, just like people have Roger's at this point.
People have to remember that in the 1990's, Barry was one of the hardest working players in terms of his training regimen's. But for pitchers, Clemens is known for being a workout freak as well.
"Cuz, they were team mates at NY. Pettite and Clemens were with Grimsley there and then Grimsley did a stint in Baltimore with Brian Roberts and Tejada. So, he had first hand knowledge."
socal- i honestly didnt know that he was teammates of these guys. that sheds a whole new light on the subject for me.
like i said, it wasnt that i didnt believe clemens would use HGH, it was that i didnt believe the word of grimsley (because i didnt know they were teammates). obviously, now that i know they were teammates, it makes it much more believable.
I have not read Mike Schmidt's book...but I have read Ball Four, vaseline and doctored baseballs are a far cry from HGH. There were players who took amphetamines...but look at the schedule players had to do without jet travel. They probably needed sleeping pills to sleep on those trains and busses. So it follows they would need uppers to get through games in different time zones. I doubt that that kind of thing really helped their game. Definitely not good for their bodies. It wasn't until the 80-90's, bulking up was part of baseball. Speed and flexibility were more important than bulk. Then the homerun frenzy began. here we are.
Clarajean, just read Schmidt's book. Any player who took amphetamines will tell you they help. Not only with being alert, but with the added feeling of invincibility that makes them great hitters. Confidence and belief is just as much a part of hitting and any game that involves hand eye coordination. When you feel you are on, you can sink free throws, sink putts, and hit HR's.
See my latest post on the matter; I just posted it tonight.
Last edited by socalsportsfan on October 1st at 11:33 PM.
Socal - I really like this piece. You made some great points, especially regarding Bonds. I also liked the comment about Clemens and Bonds getting bigger and we all do. Frankly, I couldn't care less about who did what, if they did it or why they did it. But it has always seemed a bit outrageous to me that Barry Bonds should take the heat for what MLB did, has, or would allow, not only from MLB but from fans perspectives as well. I also think having the Federal Government waste time and money on this is ridiculous. As to IRS involvment (your latest post), I think they are searching for a means to justify government involvment. It's a sham! And, like Ricko, I made a clean break from MLB after '94. My problem now is that these MN Twins are so interesting I have actually been watching more MLB than I have since '94. Great job with this. Good to see you are still around.
Gcoach, I am still hanging around. I have had precious little time to write though with the beginning of a school year and then my son broke two bones in his arm. Also, not much to write about until now. I am still waiting for something significant to break on the Duke case. As for the Twins, I wouldn't put it past them to win it all.
socal It won't only be the media that we'll need to watch in this circumstance. As I doubt that MLB will want one of their most celebrated players of recent times caught up in this little scandal. And I say little as I believe that they'll do all that is within their might to throw water on this fire to put it out as quickly as is humanly possible. But if the press are already running with it then look for Selig to effect some back room machinations to put this thing to rest.
Socal, Im not going to say for sure Clemens is clean as we dont know who is these days. But all of a sudden the notion that his situation and Bonds is the same is crazy. Aside from both of them never failing a test thats about the only comparison, I mean we do know Bonds took steriods right? It goes beyond his mistress. I will use my words carefully here but I believe he admitted to "unknowingly" using substances given to him that we all know now was steriods. That is a lot different than an accusation of Clemens which at this point isnt even steroids but "athletic enhancing drugs" I believe Grimsley said. I will admit like anyone else we dont know where this will go and maybe down the road there will actually be more evidence against Clemens, but for now anyone who starts the Bonds comparisons I think are way off base.
tophat, thanks for commenting. MLB will stand behind Clemens because it has too.
CKid, the two cases are similar just in different stages of the game. As for what the drugs were, for Clemens it is performanc enhancers which is a huge category that includes steroids and HGH which is not tested for. That is the same drug that Barry supposedly took, the "clear". As for Barry's admission, he has never said he unknowingly took steroids. He says he used a cream and had a liquid that he was told was flaxseed oil. His words have been twisted just as they are saying Grimsley's words have been twisted now. The attorneys for the case are even saying that the Grimsley information was filled with innaccuracies. Unfortunately they say that because Roger is involved but not for Barry. Because these are sealed documents we can never know the truth to any of the allegations.
socalsports They'll stand behind him as long as the allegations are found not to be true. Supposedly a statement was made earlier today by an attorney from the Justice Dept. stating many of the evidence stated in Grimsley's affidavit were incorrect and some of those names mentioned were not factual. Leads me to believe that they're either screwing up another case due to lack of evidence or they're really inept prosecutors. Either way I won't speculate on the matter until there's cold hard facts to substantiate everything.
What does Brett need for a birthday present other than a brain. No it's not a heart as he's already got one of those ! It's actually a mind of his own as he's believing all the #### that's being espoused by those blow-hards that keep on saying he's good for another year. All I know is that when the tread of the tires on my truck start to wear thin I change them for new ones as I don't go riding around on old bald tires. It's too dangerous and that's what Brett is becoming for the Packers ............he's too combustible and is more liable to be a hindrance rather than an asset to the team.
Roger has had a free ride for the last few years. He WITHOUT question has been on HGH and probably steroids. CANSECO has no reason to lie. I saw Roger on the driving range... WITHOUT question he was so cut from a couple of years ago it was funny. I have also been told from a good source he HAS tested positive and it was kept a secret... He got a free ride and BARRY has taken all the hits.
They should throw out his records from the last couple of ERA ( years )...
I hate to say, I told you so, but today investigators are saying Jason Grimsley has 
Many people believe Barry should have an asterisk by his name in the record books while others think he should not hold any records. They believe he should never darken the steps of Cooperstown. So should Roger hand back all of those Cy Young’s? Should his teams forfeit the wins in which he pitched? Should the Yankees have one of their World Series titles stricken from the record? Should Clemens be a sure fire first ballot hall of famer? 
