Today as we await the verdict on the Floyd Landis an interesting comment was left on my post titled, “I Know Why Landis Doped.”The comment basically alleges that Landis did win the Tour de France, but he will be stripped of his win by the International Cycling Union, the sanctioning body for cycling.
My point of contention is that if you cheat and you are caught and then stripped of the win, then you did not win at all.If a high school team is found to violate recruitment rules or play ineligible players, then they are forced to forfeit games they have already competed in and won.The record books are changed.Ben Johnson had his gold medal stripped by the Olympic committee when he was found to have used an illegal steroid.
So, I would like to pose this question to the Fox bloggers and see if we can arrive at some consensus of opinion; did Landis win?Do you consider someone who cheats and wins an event to be the winner?Do you consider someone who has a medal taken away even though they physically came in first to be the winner?I do not.The tricky part is that many winners who have medals or first place finishes may have cheated also, but they were not caught and therefore still retain their titles.What say you?
The problem is this. How many people have cheated, never been caught and won? No one but God knows.
Landis won, and is stripped of his title after the fact. When people discuss that infamous Olympics, the discussion always goes "Ben Johnson won the gold and was stripped" instead of "Carl Lewis won the gold".
It's an absurd discussion, but I suppose I felt the need to stick up for the cuzmeister because I think he's still right. What the hell is synthetic testosterone anyway?
Synthetic testosterone is just man made and not naturally produced by the body. It is still testosterone.
As for Cuz, my bet with him was not so much that an American would not win as that he said someone from Lances team could have won. He seemed to think Lance was holding his team mates back from winning and that anyone with that team would win. I disagree with that statement whole heartedly. I also still think the Americans have a long way to go to catch up with Europe in cycling. Tyler Hamilton, a former Lance team mate is out for doping and now so is Landis, and then all the top challengers from Basso to Ullrich. Doping is so prevalent in cycling, so I don't really care. I say let them dope in cycling with a doctor's care. It would be safer.
Who would have ever thought that we would still be talking about cycling even after Lance Armstrong is gone? TOo bad we're talking about doping and not celebrating a clean Landis win to shove in the European's faces.
Landis absolutely did not win if it can be proven that he cheated. If sports comes down to the winner being the guy who was the best at cheating, then what's the point?
Vanesa Williams won the Miss America pageant in 1984. It was later revealed that she had posed nude. Under pressure from the Miss America pageant committee, Vanessa resigned rather than getting stripped of her crown. However, because she resigned instead of being stripped she is still listed as the winner of record. After Vanessa resigned, Suzette Charles was then crowned the official winner. They are both listed as winners of the 1984 pageant, and without asterisks.
1984 Vanessa Williams - Millwood, NY (9/17/83-7/23/84)
1984 Suzette Charles - Mays Landing, NJ (7/23/84-9/15/84)
However, in researching Olympic Medal winners on the Olympics official website, I put in a search for Ben Johnson as a past medal winner. He came up as a bronze medal winner for 1984, but not as a Gold Medal winner for 1988 -- the year the medal was stripped from him after he set a world record in the 100mm. In fact, the Olympics organization credits Carl Lewis, the runner-up, as the winner.
Therefore, if Landis is stripped of his medal, he will not be the winner of the 2006 Tour de France. The second place finisher will, in fact, be the official winner of record. Since this would be a first, I do not know if an asterisk will be placed by the official winner's name, or in a footnote.
Last edited by MeanDovine on August 1st at 1:55 PM.
socal Landis' position is no longer a precarious one as it would appear all bar the shouting, he may well be stripped of his win and become a byline in the Tour's history books. That being said his protesting of his innocence, we've yet to hear from him concerning as to how a synthetic form of testosterone found its way into his system. That to my mind would be the first question that I would want answered and from thereon in I'd pose other questions relevant to his circumstances.
I don't condone his actions at all but unfortunately we're living in a world where win by any means necessary means just that.
You could probably argue the rules all day long...but when the rules are known, a cheater is a cheater. It is a little weird to nullify something that already occurred. But what if the World Series of Poker winner announced after winning that he used extra counterfeit chips, shouldn't he be stripped of his title?
I wonder what drives these people. Is it the money, the attention?
Nice research Mean. I did not know that about Vanessa, that she is still listed. I for one thought she was treated unfairly.
Shooter, Halfbaked, we agree.
Tophat, i do not need to know any other answers. If he had a reason, he should have told us but his silence tells me all I need to know.
Norcal, why is this discussion absurd? Is it because you disagree or you just find the Tour not interesting. I for one do not care for the Tour de France, but it is the biggest race in cycling world wide.
Last edited by socalsportsfan on August 1st at 6:20 PM.
Mama always said “Winners never cheat and cheaters never win”. If you cheat you loose. Period. In the recent world of pro cycling, I point to David Milar (sp?) who fessed up and said, "Yep, you caught me and I did it". Well, then guess what, you're out... And if Floyd steps up and does what Milar did and says, “yep, I shot up” (or whatever), then he should indeed be stripped of his title, job, winnings, and sponsorships. Cheating at anything and winning should never be tolerated at any level. No question there.
However, I'm not gonna leave it at that. To answer your question.... Yes, I think Floyd won.
Not to put a religious spin on this but here's an analogy: Just because science has evidence (proof?) that man has evolved from #### and not the whole Adam/Eve thing like in the Bible states, does that change my opinion on if there's a God or not? Nope! Not at all.
I'll sum it up to one word: Faith.
I have faith that guys like Floyd who train so hard and work so hard year round (well, Jan Ulrich seems to party a bit in the off season) but for the most part these guys are putting it out there on the line in what is arguably the most grueling sporting event knowing they'll be tested for doping are not going to risk getting busted and loosing it all. There's no logic to it.
But pro cycling is a dirty sport and I do have to own up to that. I really do hope that these guys get their act together and finally clean it up once and for all!
Last edited by NCBikerGuy on August 1st at 9:02 PM.
Biker guy, I would agree they train hard, but that does not mean they do not use steroids. Ullrich, Basso, and a host of others have been caught and now Landis. Tyler Hamiltion is serving a two year ban. Evolution has nothing to do with God, so that analogy is weak for me personally. Lots of people do things thinking they will never get caught and Landis is no different. Can you explain why 50 cyclists were disqualified this year if they are so clean and know they will be tested?
Can you explain why Ricky Williams continues to smoke weed when he knows he will lose millions in the NFL and he will be tested?
Can you explain why Sauerbrun used ephedra
Last edited by socalsportsfan on August 1st at 9:24 PM.
You bring up great points! Ones I cannot disagree with (as much as I'd LOVE to). Well, I probably could have articulated the whole Adam/Eve thing better but we won't go there.
Hey, like I said, cycling is a dirty sport and it breaks my heart that some of my heros in the sport could potentially be dirty. I really take it to heart!! The day before the TDF - my head was spinning! My wife thinks I'm a nut job about this, and she's probably right.
To be honest, I don't know why guys like Williams do what they do. Perhaps they do it because the NFL won't do much more than slap them on the wrist? Afterall, what's a $10,000 fine to these guys? They blow that on strippers in a single weekend. :-)
Speaking of strippers, do you know if other sports (baseball, football, etc) strip players of their ability to play, loose their team and their job with no pay if they get busted for doing performance enhancing drugs?
IMHO the contracts these guys, like Williams, get allows them to get paid even if they murder someone! (Ok, so maybe not murder but...) I'll be the first to admit I know know the first thing about sports unlike many others on here so I don't really know the answer. I just have my passion for cycling and that's why I'm all over threads about Landis.
Last edited by NCBikerGuy on August 1st at 10:03 PM.
NC, Ricky WIlliams is banned for a whole year from the NFL. That is worth millions to him. His last year he lost 8 million in an arbitration because he would have to serve a 4 game ban, so he came back, was caught again and is missing this entire year. Currently he is playing football in Canada where they don't care about drugs.
NBA has a drug policy which tries to help athletes overcome addictions if they come forward, but if they are caught they can receive a lifetime ban. Roy Tarpley comes to mind.
Most sports have bans in place, you just here about the sensational cases. Cycling is by far the dirtiest sport.
For the record, I am an Adam and Eve guy.
Last edited by socalsportsfan on August 1st at 10:36 PM.
I would have to agree with SoCal on this one. If Landis is proven guilty, cheaters are not winners...period!! I guess if they all doped...which is becoming more of a possibility, then you could say he was the "dopest of the dopers"!! But if it's illegal, it is wrong to do it...right? My wife is German. We are trying to do things the right way with immigrations. Her pocketbook was stolen while in Germany a little over a month ago. With it, her international driver's license. So she's angry at me right now because I won't let her drive. If she did, she would be ILLEGAL!! If caught, she would probably get her license, that is supposedly in the mail to her, stripped from her, and we would pay a heavy fine...not only for the violation itself, but our insurance would go through the roof also. The point is, cheaters never win...and they shouldn't. If they did, who's to stop everyone from doing so.
While I'm at it...how do we know what Adam and Eve looked like?!! Evolution is nothing more than adaptation and change. This goes on every day. I see nothing wrong with believing in both!!
SoCal, an interesting question. If everyone is cheating, is it cheating? So now it comes down to who cheats the best, best being defined as not getting caught. I do think the TDF is trying hard to clean up the sport. They've already done more than MLB.
Fatmaw, If you believe in the Bible, you not only know what Adam and Eve looked like, you know what God looks like. We are made in His image.
hogfan...humans have changed over the years...as evidenced by remains and scietific evidence. which image was that? I'm not trying to start a debate on this...in the end it doesn't matter. I'm just saying that just because you believe that humans have physically changed over the years, that doesn't mean that we weren't made in God's image and that Adam and Eve didn't exist. I don't know why Christians get their panties in a #### everytime the word evolution pops up. In in no way contradicts the Bible. Why are Christians so scared of change? It doesn't make sense.
Sorry SoCal...didn't mean to get off your blog subject here.
Fatmaw, I'm simply pointing out that if you do believe in the Bible, you know. If you prefer to pick and choose what you believe, so be it. I'm not someone who walks around with his panties in a #### (OK, sometimes I do need to pick my shorts out of my crack). Simply put, as a believer, I choose to believe all of it.
Evolution within a species happens all the time. Crosses between species are called hybrids. They are not species because they do not procreate. I'm a scientist by trade, and I have no trouble reconciling my faith with my work. God is the greatest scientist of all, and I stand amazed.
He calls us to believe by faith, and He leaves it as our personal choice.
Ok, now I really must be a nut. Not only am I a believer, I'm not afraid to say so.
Last edited by hogfan480618 on August 2nd at 6:44 AM.
Gotcha. I too am a believer. I just have issues, and I'm not saying you did this, with those telling me I can't be a believer in the Bible and believe in evolution at the same time. So sorry if I'm a little grouchy on this subject.
Isn't nice to be able to have the freedom to speak our minds, have difference's of opinion and still understand that people have the ability to make decisions (good or bad) all by themselves....
I feel that the dopers are like the guy speeding down the freeway ahead of 5 cops thinking that he will never be caught... Never happens though... the speeder always crashes...
bottom line... logic is long gone from ones mind when they feel strongly that "NO ONE WILL EVER CATCH ME" or "IT CAN NEVER HAPPEN TO ME" Those famos words
If, and it is a big if, Landis used perfomance enhancing drugs, then his victory should be disregarded. That is the sportingly correct thing to do.
As for the other 51 cyclinsts that were suspended on the eve of the TDF, I have an issue with that. Each of these riders were linked, or their names mentioned in connection with the Puerto scandal. Not one of them were proven to have taken or distributed the drugs. What happened to innocent until proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt? Those riders should have been alowed to ride with the caveat that if they were proven to break the rules, they would be DQ'ed after the fact.
It breaks my heart to see this ruin the current state of cycling. I am now focusing on the stateside elite level racing to follow. It is far more competitive and drugs are the exception not the rule. Follow Healthnet racing and Fiordefruita team for some great CAT 1 racing.
Last edited by Cannondale613 on August 2nd at 9:41 AM.
He had the best time for the race, but if he cheated to get it, he may as well have finished yesterday!
He should and will be expunged from the winners list and added to the cheaters list.
As for why he is not saying anything yet aside from he is innocent, my guess is that he is waiting for sample B to be tested and then will launch his defense. If it comes back clean, he'll be cleared for the official record but there will still be that dreaded "cloud" hanging over him for eternity due to the first positive test!
Cannon, I think you have some misinformation. The 50 riders were not kept from riding by the Tour de France. Ullrich's team and Basso's team pulled their riders because they did have definitive information. Also, I might add this is not America nor is it part of our legal system. Many people forget that we are the greatest country on earth because we do adhere to that policy, but a sporting event is not bound by that mantra. Once again, no riders were kept out by the Tour, the names were sent to the respective teams and the teams pulled them.
Bafongu, I think if you cheat and it is proven, you did not win. Proving it is always the difficult part. As for Landis, it is not a big if. The results are in, and he was found guilty. He will be stripped unless he can show how this got into his system. I can tell everyone that, he used a syringe!
Hoffman, I am amazed that I am up on BOTD again, but not suprised. Many of the tremendous bloggers have stopped writing and I have not. If you write posts, eventually you will make it to this spot.
Stanley, it awesome to have the freedom to speak your mind.
Mustard, Landis has said he expects the second sample to give the same results. WHy would he say that unless he knows something, like when and how it entered his system.
Last edited by socalsportsfan on August 2nd at 9:57 AM.
I'm a little perplexed by a lot of the attitudes I've seen expressed around about Landis, basically, if he cheated throw him under the bus and move on. I've got to wonder if the folks who are the quickest to judge him have ever cheated on their taxes, or lied to a cop to get out of a ticket, or lied to their boss for some reason or another or cheated on thier wife, girlfriend, husband, Etc.? I imagine the pressure he feels in a sport that is pretty clearly rife with performance enhancers to join in just to keep up is much more intense than lying your way out of a fifty dollar fine, or conveniently forgetting about the $15 bag of dog food on the bottom rack of your cart when you ring up your groceries. Add in the fact that this was probably going to be his last competition at this level given his hip problems, and I can easily understand why he may have done it. That being said, there is no way he should be officially declared the champion, but in my opinion, he did win the race. There is no way of knowing how many other riders out there were dirty as well, but I'd be willing to bet there were quite a few who just masked it better than he did. My guess is that he wasn't a regular doper and this was an isolated incident given the desperation of the circumstances in his final race. That would also explain why he tested positive and so far beyond any rational standards; he wasn't familiar with how to shoot up and stay undetected. But if you do the crime, he has to be disqualified and the second place finisher crowned champion. But you also can't call the recipient of
sorry, I got cut off...
I was saying, you can't say the second place finisher won the race either, because he didn't. He may well be crowned champion, but he was not the winner. A fine line, I know, but one that does exist.
As for Landis, you can not say he cheated, he won, Oscar Pereoria did not win, but he is the champion. You must take a side. Officially, Oscar will be crowned the champion and he won the race because Landis cheated. As Bafongu pointed out, had he put tacks on the highway, or stuck a crowbar in the wheel of his opponent, then kept the lead, he cheated and would not be the winner. Technically crossing the finish line first does not mean you are the winner if you crossed by taking a short cut. I put it on the same level as a guy who says he wins the marathon, but a car picked him up 1/4 of the way into the race and dropped him off in front of the finish line. Did he win? NO, he cheated.
As for his stupidity in injecting himself and why, I wrote a post on, "I Know Why Landis Doped" and you can read it in my archives, just several posts back.
If the second test come back positive then he is a CHEATER and wins a seat next to the rest of atheletes that have fallen prey to performance enhancing drugs.
Did he win, NO he cheated ( if proven) and nobody loves a cheater! Or do they?
Well, I for one am and will continue to be a fan of Ulrich, Basso, Landis, AND Hamilton - REGARDLESS if they're guilty or not.
If they are guilty, well shame on them. That does not mean that I won't stand in awe of what they do on the bike (doped or not). It seems to me that if doping really had that HUGE of an impact on their performance these guys might have blown the rest of the field away by an hour or something. It seems to me (and I'm no expert) that it simply gave them a leg up - IF they really doped.
However, none of this changes the level of respect I have for these guys operating at their level in the European circuit which is, at a minimum, ultra competitive. I may be disappointed in them but I still respect what they do. I may not want them dating my niece though. :-)
So while I would not say that I "love" these guys, I am a huge fan and would still go watch any or all of them compete if I got the chance!!
NC Biker guy, what they do is amazing, but the reason they do not win when doped is because Lance was racing and he was better with EPO or without. We will never know in his case either.
Do you also admire baseball players who use steroids? Do you still like Barry Bonds, Big Mac, Raffy, Sammy, and all the rest who may have used steroids? If you say yes, then I can live with your answers. if you say no, then I think you have a double standard for cyclers vs baseball players. AFter all, cyclers are just in shape bike riders. Their sport does not require the same kind of hand eye coordination of many other sports, just a good set of lungs. Marathon athletes are more impressive to me, but I do think they are amazing.
Honestly, I've never been a HUGE fan of mainstream American sports. I am, of course, a Panthers fan but more from afar than anything else.
So if someone told me Delhome doped up I'd say "well... that blows" but I don't think it would change my opinion of him. But it's hard for me to draw a comparison because I am such a distant fan to other sports when it comes to cycling.
Sorry - maybe I am a hypocrite... I dunno.
I am interested in your views on Levi joining team Disco (or do you not follow cycling THAT close?). I posted a new BLOG about my thoughts on it - check it out.
If the b sample comes back positive,which I think it will,then he DID NOT win the tour.All the other winners that have never been caught and know they cheated ? Well I guess they fooled the world,but deep down inside they know its a tarnished medal.You sill got look at yourself in the mirror.
