Is it me, or has this entire nation gone completely cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs?First, Clarence Thomas is accused of harassing a former legal aide, Anita Hill, and is almost kept off of the Supreme Court because of vicious lie.Then Bill Clinton sexually harasses Monica Lewinsky and is impeached for lying under oath about having an affair with an intern.Of course he lied about it.I would not want to face Mrs. Clinton either if I had done what he did.Then there is Isaih Thomas, who was under fire for sexual harassment. The Knicks have been gracious to Thomas and have not fired him yet. Now Harold Reynolds is accused of the harassing a woman that he gave a hug too and has been fired.
The problem is that sexual harassment is too loosely interpreted today by both employees and employers.Recently, I had to go through sexual harassment training, a requirement in CA for all employees of companies over a certain threshold.The training was a joke.We paid thousands of dollars for an attorney who specializes in sexual harassment to come and sensitize us to the folly of sexual harassment.By the way, no longer is it only a male that can harass a female, but a female can harass a male, and a male can harass another male and vice versa.The thing is, if a hot lady whistles at a guy or gives us a look, we enjoy it.Men are built differently than women both physically and mentally.Call it nature or the way God made us, the fact is the male of almost any species is out to attract the female and when she gives him attention it drives him crazy.
I don’t know this woman that Harold hugged, but unless he forced her into a corner or stalked her day in and day out, I am going on record and saying he just got hosed to save the company a dime.I am willing to bet she participated in this to some degree too.Either with a casual glance or an email, but I just don’t believe that Reynolds went over and fondled this woman without some provocation. It is not like Reynolds has the same power that a former president has over an intern. Many women would jump at the chance to sleep with a sitting president, but a baseball analyst?
That does not mean it is right, but in this litigious society we live in, companies are instructed to have zero tolerance for sexual harassment while tolerating drug and alcohol abuse.I personally think that is too funny given that if someone has an alcohol or drug related problem you have to help them find treatment and be extra careful before firing them for that. What about due process? What about innocent until proven guilty. Whether or not I like Isaih Thomas, I was glad to see his employers stand up for him and not buckle to the pressure of this woman who accused him of sexual harassment. I just wish ESPN would do the same. If Reynolds is proven guilty of something, then fire him.
For those who say that Clinton did not harass Lewinsky, by today's definition in the courts and the laws, he most certainly did. He abuse his power to get Lewinsky to perform sexual acts to herself and to him. He was the controller. Personally, I do not agree totally with this definition, because as adults we have to be able to say no. I do not think it took much to sway Monica, but on the other hand, she was very young. Just my opinion. Legally, she could have made a claim against him. Of course, several other women did charge Bill with harassment and to this day I never really tried to follow up on those charges nor do I care too.
What's classified as "sexual harassment" today is a complete joke. They teach you not to comment on people's appearance period. This means if you like their haircut and comment on it they could accuse you of sexual harassment.
It's one thing when someone blatantly grabs someone or looks at them and licks their lips or something of that nature. In those cases then can the pig! But when two coworkers joke around or compliment each other then the lawyers should just back off.
They're trying to take all the fun out of work. You're not allowed to get to know your co-workers anymore, you can't joke with them, you can't compliment them, and most importantly you may never touch them. Ridiculous.
Dido rus and Socal. I can;t stand Harold's announcing but fired over a hug? We have gone overboard w/ harrassment. I guess when at work just look down, don't talk to anybody, and at the same time make sure you don't bump into anybody or you could get canned!
At the training I had to endure, the lawyer made us do some role plays. She picked this 80 year old man and asked him to stare at this young woman. He was so embarassed and did not know what to do. WHen she called on me todo something, I asked her if I had too, and when she said yes, I said I feel sexually harassed, where do I file a complaint. She did not call on me again.
The problem as I see it is not the laws, but the judges who interpret them. Common sense has been thrown out the window.
If you can get fired for hugging a girl, that is BS, My old Company I used to hug all the girls on occassion. If I had been fired I would've sued. What sucks about this issue, is that the guy will always lose, regardless.
There's definitely a prejudice against men. I'm all for women's liberation but men are being treated unfairly.
You might have seen me comment on Tina_Wright's blog about the Brett Myers situation. Would you boo a WNBA player, for instance, if she hit her husband? Would she be ordered to sensitivity training and marriage counseling? Would anyone care?
No, because women are supposedly weaker than men.
What if the woman was Myers' size and the man was the size of his wife?
It's scary what's happening now. Now if two co-workers meet up after work and something (consenual) happens one can claim sexual harrassment even though the incident happened outside the work place. This is because it creates a "hostile work environment."
I think the problem is more with the people who bring these lawsuits than the judges (though I agree the judges should simply toss out the claims). I mean, now you're never sure what you can say to someone or even how to look at them.
If this lady was uncomfortable being hugged she should've gone to him and asked him to stop. I'm pretty sure he didn't have hiring and firing power and would've probably avoided her all together after that.
People ought to calm down and loosen up. If people are required to be robots at work than the rest of their life will suffer and the downward spiral will continue.
Being fondled=sexual harrassment
Being hugged=misunderstanding
Handling these issues is actually a part of my profession. Which is why a lot of this Reynolds information just doesn't make sense.
Fired for giving someone a hug? Uh, no. That can't be the reason, by any stretch of the imagination. Now, maybe there is something to the hug we don't know about. A hug, that's OK (provided that it isn't an unwanted & repeated activity). But what if, say, Reynolds gave her a hug with his pants around his ankles? That could change things.
Also, if it's only an accusation...then that isn't why he was fired either. He could have been placed on leave pending an investigation. But if such action was taken, there simply has to be more to it.
I am not familiar with the corporate structure of ESPN, but I'm assuming they have a Human Resources department that investigated this issue. And there is no way that any details of it should be released to the press, or anybody. I imagine that there are fairly strict confidentiality guidelines. Not that someone wouldn't violate those for a buck or two, but that's a different story.
But it is interesting, as an employment issue. I just think there are way too many details we don't know about, and shouldn't know about.
Maybe it was John Kruk who filed the harassment complaint. Who knows?
"There's definitely a prejudice against men. I'm all for women's liberation but men are being treated unfairly.
You might have seen me comment on Tina_Wright's blog about the Brett Myers situation. Would you boo a WNBA player, for instance, if she hit her husband? Would she be ordered to sensitivity training and marriage counseling? Would anyone care?
No, because women are supposedly weaker than men.
What if the woman was Myers' size and the man was the size of his wife?
No, it's okay because she's a woman."
There's a pride issue there though. Would most men report their wife if she hit him? Maybe some would, but most would not
we had all the sensitivity/harrassment training where i worked like 4 or 5 years ago....half of us walked out of it with new material from the ridiculous little movie we had to watch, and the other half had the deer in the headlight look, afraid to even open their mouth. one gal i worked with looked so worried, i walked up to her and told her to quit looking at me that way, or i'd report her. she freaked, until the rest of our department started laughing their a$$es off. a few months later, the HR rep tried getting my boss fired, because she heard a rumor that he was having a relationship with someone other than his wife, outside of work. from what he told me, this alleged woman didnt even work there, and was just someone he and his wife had known for years. and the whole thing was brought up because he knew her job better than she did, was more qualified for it, AND she didnt even have the required education for the job.
Hey i dont noe if im wrong about this or not, but can u get fired in a job for being accused of something? I could accuse someone right now for sexual harassment would they get fired? I loved that broadcaster, he was one of my favorites too.
Maybe Harold gives a hug like a Chihuahua humping a shoe. If the victim was Kruk (like Shooter suggested) I think I’ll #### my forehead off my desk until that image goes away.
In my days in manufacturing we had to go to those trainings as well, mostly sparked by a couple of ladies screaming harassment. One case I know was bogus, the girl later told me that she hated that SOB and wanted to get him fired. Pretty scary, I’m sure there are some legit cases but I wonder what percentage is just malicious females/males trying to get someone fired.
Rusirious, truth be told, I think you would find that on many common issues LSU, Um, and myself agree. It is just some volatile issues that we disagree upon.
Shooter, I agree we don't know all of the details, but amazingly everyone believes every leaked detail on Bonds, but the leaks on Harold could not possible be true. It is a NYT leak, so who knows, they leaked the CIA spying case too.
I know lots of people who work in HR departments, and all I am saying is that the laws have been purposely made very vague so that claims can arise. They are skewed to towards the most ridiculous claims so that every woman is covered, or man. Common sense could avoid much of what comes up. By the way, many women victims could stop the whole process with a simple, please don't touch me or look at me. It has been shown repeatedly that many of the cases that come out the women say they felt defensely so they said nothing. Our laws now protect women so they should stand up and say no.
Ultra, 100% agreement that men will never be treated equally in sex harassment cases or in the cases of spousal abuse. If a woman slaps a man, he is expected to take it. Other way around, and he goes to jail and his name is tarnished forever. A woman slaps a man, it is expected that he asked for it. From first hand experience, there are some foul mouth vile women out there in too.
Last edited by socalsportsfan on July 26th at 10:54 AM.
This has got to be a move on ESPNs part of saying we want to bring some one else for the job that Harold had and opportunity knocked for us to fire him. IF Harold knew that hugging under ESPNs policy is Sexual Harassment then he really does not have a case.
But women do need protection from men in some cases does this warrant "protection"? I would have to read the police report.
Socal quote: "WHen she called on me todo something, I asked her if I had too, and when she said yes, I said I feel sexually harassed, where do I file a complaint. She did not call on me again."
LOL, I don't think there was a better answer or question possible than this Socal! Priceless!
Just an observation but I bet there is more to this story and that the "hug" was what they agreed upon as the story and the reason for the firing. This is just my observation if indeed Harold actually did something at all. It is in the same category as the Duke Lacrosse scandal. When a woman yells "Wolf" they MUST act regardless.
Ultra is right on the woman slapping a man too.
Yes we can agree on many things, the 3 of us!
I guess the old saying "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" could be the root of Harold's problem. If indeed he has a problem at all.
Oh he has a problem, even if he is innocent. That is why workplace romance is no good. while it is mutual, it maybe fun, but if she feels wronged, she can make you pay. Look at Kim Bell. She is paying Bonds back for dumping her.
socal Bill O'Reilly, Marve Albert and now Harold Reynolds. Whether or not these men had their little peccadilloes, one can't question the severity of the allegations. It had been alleged that Reynolds had been warned in the past concerning his behavior around female members at ESPN. And in likelihood he was and failed to act on the warnings because of the testosterone driven atmosphere of the studios up there in Bristol, Connecticutt. What can't be ascertained are the reasons for ESPN and Reynolds not wanting to address the issue.
Speculation will be rife until answers are given to the questions arising from all of this.
I expect Reynolds to fight this and a settlement to be reached. Harold has minorit status on his side and ESPN better walk carefully. This is not a Rush Limbaugh or Marv Albert.
Socal, yes...those laws are very vague. I agree that most situations can be avoided, by someone just saying that the behavior is unwanted. I can also understand, to some degree, how someone could feel threatened by saying such. But there are many cases that the person being harassed didn't really make much of an effort to stop the behavior, but still ended up winning a court case.
I think it's unlikely that Reynolds being fired was just because of a hug. But, for a high profile organization like ESPN...I can see them terminating someone only because of an accusation. Not because of harassment law, but to protect their image. We've seen broadcasters and media employees fired for things not involving work too. In this case, it does seem to be work related. But who knows the real truth.
I agree that some info might have been leaked, especially when it involves a quasi-celebrity...and possibly people willing to pay for that kind of information. But if so, then someone violated confidentiality policies. And that could very well be the case. Depending on what Reynolds said, or says later to the press...he could very well be in violation too.
I agree with Shooter as he beat me to the punch on this one. After 11 years ESPN would not break off Reynolds for a 'hug'. Also, with the health concerns of Peter Gammons ESPN did not want to get rid of a familiar face on ESPN baseball. It would not make any sense, unless there was a good reason for it.
Totally agree with your take on Bill Clinton to start the thread of comments. Besides, a married man should not be cheating on his wife and vice versa. Obviously we know not everyone can maintain a commitment 'for as long as we shall live'.
the_dan--a real man would remain faithful to his wife. or at least if you're gonna f#ck around don't be stupid enough to get caught. it's no fun having to live with photos like these floating around for the rest of your life. i mean look at the silly face in the avatar.
America has a serious case of "Man Guilt." man guilt is similar to white guilt in that it forces perfectly good white people to accept blame and feel remorse in the situations they shouldnt. harrassment by defination means it had to have happened more than once. you cant fire someone for making sexual advances. women do it all the time. this whole 'equality thing' is ####. theyre equal til the check comes. theyre equal till someone snags their purse. in these situations, we - as men - are suddenly supposed to relish our roles as providers and protecters. thats a #### double standard. if i learned anything from being a drunken frat boy to a drunken soldier, its that women lie. they do. the same chick that rubs your shoulders at 4:59pm with have you in front of a review board at 8am the next day. we men tolerate that #### because we feel guilty about being bigger and stronger. i KNOW women that've lied about being raped just to get revenge. i've been the guy in cuffs because some #### decided i didnt respect her. after i showed her parents and the police officers our video, none of them respected her either. but that didnt stop everyone i know from turning their backs on me for those few short hours. all things being equal, this man-guilt gives women far too much power.
I've met Harold Reynolds a number of times, in Corvallis, OR. He's a hell of a nice guy, so I'm curious to know the entire truth behind why ESPN fired him.
I agree with Shooter on this. They just shouldn’t fire someone over a single hug. Maybe a warning or leave of absence, if that was just the case, and the hug was not mutual. But there has to be something else to the story. Do we have a right to know? NO! It really is not any of our business. ESPN can deal with it themselves, and save face for the victim involved.
It had to be something huge to let him go like that. With Gammons health problems, it was bad timing to make such a line up change without just warrant. ESPN was fully aware that they were jeopardizing the show by firing him. They had to have a strong case against him.
I don't think you can compare drug and alcohol abuse to sexual harassment. In most cases drugs and alcohol affect the user first, then progress to victimize others. Sexual Harassment has a victim every time. Completely different issues. Great entry!
Sid, Dan, I would agree with Shooter that we don't know the whole story, but we will. I still think Reynolds will fight this.
PF, I always like Harold as an analyst. Some people don't like him, others do. For me, he always gave an honest analysis without degrading people.
Demon, I think you know where I stand on this with my posts on the Duke Rape case and others. The equality #### is way overblown when it suits women which speaking of women, where are they? WHy have no women spoken up yet?
Gr8. Not sure about you yet. A real man should remain faithful, but for one who has been married for 18 years, it is not easy. As for if you are going to do it, at least hide it, that is easier said than done.
Fat, my kids liked it, that is all that matters. Kept them busy for 2 1/2 hours so my wife could get some rest and cook my favorite dinner. It's my birthday.
Last edited by socalsportsfan on July 26th at 4:54 PM.
I am going to hold judgment on Harold's situation until I hear his offical side of the story. It is not easy to get fired from ABC/Disney unless there is a pattern of abuse or ineptitude.
Mean, I always rememberd something my mom taught me. She alwasy said, "Son, there are two sides to every story." Then she proceeded to spank me no matter what my side was.
I am sure Harold and this women have a side and each one will come out. My point is that there is a double standard in how the punishment is applied when it comes to men. Very seldom do women get in trouble for this type of thing, when women are much more tactile, huggy, then men. Harold may well be guilty and if he is, then he has this coming. But my gut tells me there is much more to the story than what we are hearing. For Reynold's sake, I hope I am right.
Flight, in this case innocenct till proven guilty does not apply as it is not a criminal case. Harold Reynolds works for ABC/Disney and as such he has to abide by their sexual harassment policies. I hope he is innocent, but even so, they can fire him if he has crossed their lines. The real problem here is how do you prove you are innocent when your word is slandered and your reputation shot.
Last edited by socalsportsfan on July 26th at 5:39 PM.
I saw a blip comment made by bengals9 on someone else's blog about him being fired & I thought it was a joke. To find out this really happened with this being the current information is amazing.
Like Shooter I have some experience with this because I spent years working HR. Two folks had a sexual relationship and neither wound up getting fired over what occurred even though apparently it got messy after the break. Doesn't it always?
Dissimilar situation, but Harold sure doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to leer at a woman, grope her or otherwise act inappropriately through words/actions. Very unfortunate and like MeanDovine I'll be waiting this out in the hope of discovering a clearer truth.
I have many questions about this whole incident:
- Why is Harold Reynolds taking a PA to Outback?
- Has Harold ever taken a male PA to Outback, just the two of them?
- Was this the first "date" the two had been on?
- Who invited who to Outback?
- What did Harold's hands touch in this hug?
- Was the hug done in a public area, or a bathroom stall?
Ultimately, the folks at ESPN have the right to fire someone if they want to and feel they are justified. Clearly Harold has been to the same sexual harrassment workshops that all of us have been to, so he knew the rules. He put himself in a situation where he could get into a lot of trouble, and that's his fault. Don't take the girl to Outback and nothing happens.
However, I will say this. Where I work there are a number of young, attractive women that dress provocatively. Some wear miniskirts, others wear low-cut blouses and others wear skin-tight pants/tops. As a guy gifted with vision, I'm going to look. I####ood looking woman walks by my desk in an outfit that shows off the body God has given her, I'm going to look. Technically, that's sexual harrassment - and it's also B.S.
People, men and women, need to take responsibility for their actions. If you don't want Harold hugging you, don't go to dinner with him. It's that simple. If you don't want me to watch you walk to and from the copier, don't wear a loose blouse and then bend over to fill up the paper tray.
Last edited by PerryBlake on July 26th at 6:39 PM.
On the surface, it's pretty apparent to me that ESPN wanted Harold out for some reason, and used this to do it. But I'll reserve judgement until I hear more.
Perry, having moved to Socal, I can not believe how provocative women dress. I find myself staring at women in Target, grocery stores, malls, rest., you get the idea. Girls at my school dress pretty badly as well and when I wonder why their dads don't tell them not to leave home that way, I see their moms pick them up after school. The apples don't fall far from the tree. These women come into my office and or school grounds and bend over very provocatively. It is as you said. The only reason women dress this way is to attract men. They do know what they are doing.
Ricko, I think you are right.
Norcal, thanks for commenting.
Last edited by socalsportsfan on July 26th at 6:46 PM.
Socal_ Great perspective on this matter and while I can't identify with being put in that very awkward situation.
I think Reynolds did something else to warrant getting fired because a simple hug won't do it. Especially considering Reynolds is a celebrity and former athlete.On the other hand if this was all that happened then shame on ESPN for firing him for something as silly as that.
For everyone out there I highly recommend Michael Freeman's book ESPN: An Uncensored History. It gives a history of the network, good and bad and also discusses ESPN's many issues with sexual harassment. From Mike Tirico to producers to Gary Miller, I think the amount of stuff that went on is disturbing and may lend some credence to why ESPN fired Reynolds so suddenly
I have followed the Mariners since day one and have nothing but great memories of Harold Reynolds both on the field as well as off. This man was always a gentleman as well as a devout Christian. In fact two of my children when they were young girls had the great pleasure of meeting with Harold, Alvin Davis and a couple of other members of the Mariners in a pre game prayer gathering at the Kingdome and they will remember that til the day they pass on. It was really quite something back in those years the Mariners had quite a few Christian athletes on their roster as well as an awful lot of young player. I remember someone on the team complaining that he couldnt find any one on the team to go have a beer with after a ball game because they were either too young or too holy. In fact they were refered to as the God Squad.
My point is that it is impossible for me to think that Harold Reynolds would do such a thing as he has been accused of doing. Where is the justic as ESPN has alread tried, convicted and sentenced him by giving him his walking papers without a chanch to defend himself. I hope you come back to Seattle Harold and continue doing what you do so well by setting a great example for the youth of this area. Sign me Potsie
Jr, haven't read his book, I will have to do that.
Potsie, Harold certainly gives the impression o####reat guy, but even Jimmy Swaggert fell into sin. So did many other ministers, so I do not think it is impossible to believe he did something inappropriate. Anyone can fall at anytime, but I too find it hard to believe he did something warranting firing. I tend to believe as Ricko, this was an out for wanting him gone.
Good post Socal. I work for the federal government, and if there was ever an organization that takes that stuff to the extreme, it's them. Well, maybe them and ESPN. Last week I told a female employee I work with, something like, "I hope it's not considered sexual harrassment if I tell you that you look really nice today." It was sort of a joke, sort of not. Sign of the times I guess....
You said it. Innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply to all situations. Not to any sexual crime or act, or using steriods in baseball for that matter. The two aren't comparable in this case, but the same rule, or lack of rule applies.
socal I'll reserve judgement on this until we hear both sides of the argument. Somehow, somewhere the truth will come out and either way not a lot of people will be pleased with the outcome. If there was a prevalent and repetitive nature in Reynolds' behavior toward this employee then ESPN's actions are understandable.
That being said Reynolds' reputation is now in tatters and redemption will not be swift.
We're in complete agreement on this one, SoCal. Sexual Harassment has certainly become an issue with too loose of interpretation. Nice delivery on this article, I enjoyed it.
I look forward to writing with you with Adam -- it looks like we've been chosen to the same categories, should be interesting to see what kind of turnout the website gets.
I agree with you socal. Although I am like many here and won't speculate on roles and responsibilities until all is known, I (as I think much of society has) now view these cases with doubt when I first hear them. That may be unfortunate because it does happen and true victims deserve rescue and redemption, but I witnessed a freind almost lose his job and family over a complete fabrication in one of these cases. Reynolds family is the first thing I thought of when I heard. A much bigger loss than a job. I think we, especially with likeable guys like HR, want to believe the best until the worst is proven.
Curious as a scan the comments how unified the sentiment is with everyone. Sad that it takes this subject to bring us all to agreement.
I can only give advice based on my current employment situation. If you feel that YOU may be susceptible to sexual harrassment, go to work for the government. The department that I manage has 8 people and three of them are women. Two, I can only speculate, are bull-dike-lesbians. The other one is about 4'10 and weighs about 250 lbs. The chances of them being sexually harrassed is non existant.
I would have to agree with a lot of the comments that there had to be something MORE going on than just a hug. Did he hug her from behind and spoon her? Was he chubbed up when the alleged hug was taking place? Did his hand "accidentally" grab her haynannynanny when they embraced?
i dont want to seem like a ####, but things like this point can not be expressed enough: sexual harassment has gotten out of control. as with rape cases - i feel that the victim should accept some responsibility. were i to walk in the hood i'm from with $10k duct taped to my ####, everyone would look, and someone would rob me. sure, i have the right to duck tape small unmarked bills and carry them in large sums. the question is should i? i know that when i go to the club, i see chicks with their breasts pushed up through their collars and skirts that are only slightly wider than their fake leather belts. these are the crazy girls that show up looking like street walkers and then get offended women someone propositions them. these are the girls that let strange men buy them drinks because "they dont buy their own drinks." these are the females that either get mickey'd with GHB or are purposely get so drunk they have no inhibitions. these are the females who wake up witb a hang over and a conscious delemma. was i raped? well, i dont actually remember saying 'yes'' then you see the poor guy on TV crying that the sex was consentual.
my question to my gal - formerly one of those club heads who walked around with her bootie all out - was thus: 'if i walked by a house fire dressed up as a fireman, do i have reason to get upset when someone asks me to help them put out the fire? i mean, i'm not really a fireman, i just look like one.'
Halfbaked, Flying pig, tophat, xea, thanks for all the comments. It is a wait and see for HR now.
Burger, I know it can ruin a man when accused even when he is innocent. Teachers, admin, and preachers really have to be careful because once accused, your reputation is gone even when innocent.
North, there never were any hard feelings. I don't hold grudges and I am sure there are plenty of things you and I can agree upon. We both voice our opinion strongly. Thanks for stopping in.
Demon, as I said above. It really isn't fair that women can dress in any manner they want and then get all POed when a man does a cat call or leers at them. If you wear those low cut blouses, shrugs, or tees braless, expect men to look. We are built to look, and you know that.
Last edited by socalsportsfan on July 27th at 7:18 AM.
Is it me, or has this entire nation gone completely cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs?
The problem is that sexual harassment is too loosely interpreted today by both employees and employers.
That does not mean it is right, but in this litigious society we live in, companies are instructed to have zero tolerance for sexual harassment while tolerating drug and alcohol abuse.
