It seems with the results of Young’s Wonderlic test becoming national headlines that a plethora of blogs have come out condemning Vince and attacking his intelligence as well as his education at the University of Texas.Some of the criticism seems a bit over the top and I can not say that I agree with every post on Vince, but I do have an opinion of my own, as usual, and I would be remiss not to share it with the blogging community.
First, let me say that no matter what his score was on the Wonderlic, I do think he has hurt his draft status by not attending the NFL combines.I do not know the true reasons he decided to skip and that in and of itself may hurt him, but in my mind there is no reason not to attend.It has been said that he missed because he had nothing left to prove or that his college numbers should be enough for anyone.While this should be true, the fact is that those who do attend get to be seen that much closer to the draft and make a case to move in front of you.Jay Cutler is a case in point.He has moved up considerably in the draft and if someone moves up, someone moves down.It might be Vince that is moving down and for every spot that a player moves down, he loses money in signing bonuses and in salary.Also if you are not going to go to the NFL combines, why go to those silly skills challenges where again you may hurt your chances if you have a poor showing. Be consistent at least in not showing anybody anything unless it is in private work out sessions like the NBA players do.
As to the Wonderlic, I took a portion of the mock test today on AOL and scored a 4 out of 4 and then went on to look at the mock exam and I could answer every question correctly.Now I know I am a Science/Math teacher by trade, but come on, if anyone looks at those questions and can not get at least 75% of them right then I do wonder about the degree they are receiving from any institution. As Rush Limbaugh says, "With half my brain tied behind my back," I could score a near perfect score. The latest headlines say that Vince’s score was not a 6, but they do not tell us what it is which leaves people to speculate.Could it be lower than a 6?At least his people should come out and let us know how high it is if he wants to rebuild his reputation. The official scores are supposed to come out on all players after the NFL combines are over.
Do I think the Wonderlic is a good indication of how well a QB will do in the NFL?Absolutely not!In today's game, if his physical skills are sufficient a player can rise above a poor IQ test. The plays are called in by headphone from the sideline and Vince’s talent in running when he sees an opening should carry him on to fame and stardom. If he can see down the field and deliver the pass to an open receiver or run when it is clear he will be a great quarterback.He is big, strong, and I think he has a good arm.He should do just fine in the NFL for any team except New Orleans and Detroit.Those franchises are cursed and no one should start their NFL career there.There has never been a successful QB start for either team.Joey Harrington is finding that out as did Archie Manning.
The biggest thing that worries me about Vince Young is how his reputation is already being tarnished.He needs to take a page from LeBron James and company and sign with an agent or image company that can help him market his incredible talents.IMG would be my pick for any young talent, but it appears right now that no one has his best interest at heart because if they did they would start trying to keep his image where it belongs, at the top of the NFL draft board.
I think Young is a good talent, I think the wonderlic test was garbage, he might have had a bad day we have all had one and gotten bad grades on a test so it's nothing major.
I'm very tick that he didn't part take in any of the combine events tough. My opinion is if you are the best why not go out there and prove it and take any doubt in anyone mind away.
I think the Titans will take him and he may even start , Steve is on his last leg and will more than likely get hurt again.
From tape Young has impressed me with his ability to make clutch plays wether passing it or doing it himself. I think it goes back to the USC game , USC game out there a bear of a team they had all the tool's Liernart,Bush,Lendale but somehow Texas won mainly due to the impressive clutch play of young, I think that he won't be any worse than Mcnabb who I thought being from Syracuse wasn't a very good QB when he was in collage and never seemed to make clutch plays but he turned out really well. I say give him sometime and he will be a playmaker no matter were he goes.
Props on the brain diagram! I think Vince didn't think everything all the way through (no pun intended about the Wonderlic performance) with regards to his approach to the draft pre-amble. He didn't expect to perform so poorly in the college all-star skills performance, and didn't think skipping the physical part of the combine would hurt him. And most of all, he probably didn't expect someone like Jay Cutler to smeak in and steal some of his thunder! He was probably just trying not to screw anything up and hoped his rose bowl performance would carry him. You're right. An image company would help him. I can definitely see him as the type of guy who should be doing a bunch of commercials.
It is amazing that his reputation is already being bashed...even before the draft, or playing in a single NFL game. At least wait until a coach calls him a dummy for not being able to learn the playbook. And I doubt that will be the case anyway...
But 3 days ago, most people had never heard of the Wonderlic test. Have score results ever been mentioned about any other player? Not in this national spotlight. Something is fishy.
Perhaps it was all a conspiracy by Al Davis...in attempt to have Vince fall in the draft.
Shooter B, maybe Al did want Vince to drop so he could pick him up. I think he is a perfect fit for TN and I hope he does go there. I think McNair can help him grow as a pro NFL QB and take the criticism that comes with being black. Steve NcNair has been a model QB, never in trouble and no one questions his heart or abilities when he plays. He has been injured the last few years, but he is truly a good guy and I think a good role model for Vince who I also believe is a good guy. He needs to shy away from the Michael Vick comparisons and that is where a good image company can help him.
TSI, thanks for agreeing. I think VY should be up there with Tiger and Wie doing commercials.
As to the test, we can all have a bad day, but once again if you follow the link and attempt the test, I think you would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind to score a 6. He must have just dismissed it thinking it was not important.
Thanks for that sample test, too bad I missed one. I thought reserve was an opposite of present. Isn't it? Sort of? I'll bet my missing one means I have natural QB talent.
You're right, this kid needs an agent, stat. I don't think he should have gone to the combine. I think his unorthodox delivery would have been criticized nationwide. This kid can get it done, I think he'll make folks sorry for passing him up.
Reserve can mean two things, 1. quiet, reserved personality or 2. to save or keep. Present means 1. to be physically somewhere or a gift. Either way they mean different things. But hey you got 75% right which makes my point. As far as the kids delivery, to me that is less important as his ability to see over the line and the fact he is not whispy like Vick. He can take a hit like Big Ben and deliver the ball. I would pick him if I were TN.
I agree. Nice post! It's good to read something that criticizes some things about an athlete without totally slamming them. There's room for that too, of course (my posts come to mind.)
Thand Dr.Crab. Most athletes I know personally are nice people and while we like to slam them for the STUPID things they do, they have families and it does hurt them. I know when people slam me if my kids read it or hear it, it hurts them. It is okay to say some nice things from time to time and I say some mean things too. Balance is the key to a good life and a good blog.
Socal, I liked this piece. There have been a few of us writing about this obviously, but you tackled it a little differently. You make some good points. As I said in my post the other day, if the draft were 2 days after the Rose Bowl, he'd have probably gone #1 or #2--and emotion would have lost some team about $45 million. Thankfully, he'll only cost a team about $30. Such is the NFL. Again, nice post.
Vince Young is getting too much heat for this. These tests really do not show how good of a football player you are. Dan Marino supposedly had a terrible score on this, and he has more yards and TDs then anyone. Alex Smith scored high, how wells he doing? This doesn't matter to me, I want to see Vince throw in a game. We know he's got talent, why are we bombing him when he hasn't even gotten to show his talent at a pro level?
so i'm guessing its ok for Bush and Leinart to sit it out...
that test is #### - like i said before - written tests are biased against people who dont test well. as a teacher, you should know that.dont you have any kids who learn more with hands-on activities and projects? i do. as teachers, arent we supposed to create lesson plans that give our kids the best chance of succeeding? the NFL is about 20 years behind the rest of the country in testing.
how do you tests someone's IQ with subjective testing anyways?
i know i wouldnt killed that test... but you dont want me under center...
didnt marino get a 10? or was that just a nasty rumor?
MrNFL, you make a great point, there are several exceptions to every rule. Smith is bad, but he's also a rookie playing for the 49ers. Young does have talent, but I think we're all so jaded from the Tim Couch's and Akili Smith's that we're looking for ways to predict they'll be bad. I'm included in that. Nowadays, you don't want to be the one to proclaim someone out-of-this world, you want to be able to say, "I told you so". And that is partly due to the Sports/Media environment that's been created for us by Mel Kiper and Co.
DaVaal: I see your points, I really do. My wife is a teacher. However, isn't everything in this world, especially Sports, subjective to the person's strengths and weaknesses? Sports is the most subjective thing in this world perhaps--we choose players and coaches based on size, speed, stats, skill and intellect. Why is it so wrong (as I keep wondering) that the people who pay these guys millions of dollars a year use a test as one of many tools to determine if they want to draft the guy or not? If Vince got a 6 or a 46 on the Wonderlic, it doesn't mean he cannot be drafted, there is no rule on it. If he's such a bad written test taker, to quell these problems, maybe he should have participated in the physical part of the combine.
i'm not rejecting your argument. i suspect he did poorly and the league is covering it up. what i'm rejecting is this Culture of Hate we've created. Its not good enough to get hit by a car as a child. its not good enough to be the first person in your family to graduate from college. it doesnt even seem to matter that he single-handedly swatted the Golden Trojans. whats this guy gotta do for some luv?
the concept of an IQ test is very dated: knowledge that September in month 9 doesnt translate into reading a 3-4 Zone blitz on the fly. had he scored a 30 - we would have said Eli Scored a 34. he blew up in the Rose Bowl and outplayed the Golden Child - and now he's got a throwing motion issue. it doesnt matter that David Carr, Phillip Rivers, and Dan Marino all have/had throwing issues.
Leinart has a real throwing problem.. his arm is weak - he's already had surgery. he's the next chad pennington or Danny Wuerful and no one will admit it. Meanwhile, we bash the Come-up Kid.
we should feel good that this kid is doing so well. instead we wait in the tall grass looking for a reason for him to fail.
DaVaal: I respect what you are saying, and I think you've clarified a couple things and it makes more sense. However, not to be technical, but he hasn't graduated yet, he left Texas after 3 years. But you are right, we should accept his accomplishments and not rip on him. Had there been nothing said about Young until this test, would that be acceptable though? Or are you saying it's the collective media bashing?
He's the thing for me: I'm sure you'd agree that no matter what sport, no matter what race, we build these guys up, run out of gushing things to say about them and then rip them apart. This could have been handled (in all situations) by acknowledging their skills and their accomplishments, but also pointing out they are flawed athletes, with bad form, sub-par vision and the list can go on.
Unfortunately, you are right--we look for a reason for athletes to fail. But I will say this, I've thought Young has had a motion issue all along. And Leinart could very well be a bust too. We just don't know. Ryan Leaf was supposed to be just as good as Peyton Manning and look how that turned out.
As someone said once, it may very well depend on where Young ends up and the kind of team he has. There are certain elements of his game that won't match-up with certain teams playing styles.
The test may be outdated, it may be dumb, but if he wants to rely on his physical tools, as I mentioned, to help out his own case, he should have performed at the combine that way.
Thanks for a good discussion, I'm enjoying the civility of it.
Reread the post and understand that I am not ripping Vince for anything except that he did poorly on a test that for the life of me I can not understand him doing poorly on. Do I know students who test poorly, yes, but many of those go on to Community college and trade school. You can call knowing the months of the year archaic all you want, but it is common knowledge. Every application requires a numeric date to be placed on it, every tax return, and every form. He should know that after going to Texas for 3 years. Did Dan score a 10, I don't know, but if he did I would rag on him too. In my opinion that is inexcusable. The problems were not hard problems.
Secondly, the focus of my post was that Vince Young hurt himself by not attending the combines and again that is my opinion. When you drop spots you lose money. That is a fact. Vince Young is the one who made that choice and if he was misguided, well I put that in my post too that he needs to hire better people. If you want to rant that people are "hating" on Vince Young then fine, but I am not one of those people. I have written in many places that I am a VY supporter. With that said, no matter how well you score on a test, perform at the combines, or all your college records, if you go to the Lions you are ####. I also point this out and it could be Alex Smith to the 49ers as well. Certain teams will destroy a QB. Tim Couch failed going to a losing team. David Carr has not done much better at Texas. Harrington in Detroit. You need to be drafted by a team t
You had me right up until you brought up Tim Couch. The Browns had some talent...not Super Bowl talent, but enough they might have contended for the playoffs at different times. They were an expansion team, but that's why these QB's go to those franchises--they are in bad shape. Great QB's are made that way, most of the time. Look at Peyton Manning. The Colts sucked before him in the late '90's, until he and James started playing with Harrison. Either you are good enough or you aren't. Harrington couldn't be surrounded by both more talent and bad management in Detriot, so how do we really know? It is the team and talent around you, but you also have to work with what you've got. The Eagles got McNabb and life got a little easier.
I don't think you were hating on Vince, anymore than I might have been in my post. The thing about this situation is he should have performed at the combine. Take the test or don't take the test, if he throws a 75 yard dart to a guy in stride, runs a solid 40 time, the Wonderlic questions subside.
Moore, I don't think the Browns were that good and have not been for a long time. As to McNabb and the Eagles or Peyton and the Colts, the fact is the Colts did get James, Harrison, and a host of other talented players. Peyton suffered one miserable year but the franchise took the right steps. Detroit and the Saints never take the right steps. I might add that the Coach VY goes to will make a huge difference as well. If I am right, Cleveland had Butch Davis who proved to be inept. The fact is that the coach plays a large role in the development of a QB and Andy Reid has done a good job with McNabb while Mora has botched Vick.
socal -- This was a very solid post... good work. You lost me, though, when you said this:
"The biggest thing that worries me about Vince Young is how his reputation is already being tarnished."
If I was a GM, I wouldn't care about his reputation or even his test scores. My biggest worry would be that he throws the football the way most people throw a frisbee overhand. Believe me, if he's got NFL skills, his reputation will mend itself.
Thanks Ty for the comments. My problem with his reputation being tarnished is that he is allowing it to happen before draft day. I just think he needs to have better people handling his career and at this point and time it looks like a bunch of amateurs are in charge. I think this will hurt him in the draft. Long term if he delivers the football and runs for 1000 yards nothing will matter accept his first contract. In the world of sports that may be your only one if you have an accident.
I went to the AOL link and, like you said, it was pretty easy stuff. I think I could've left my brain at home and still done pretty good on that thing. The PRESENT/RESERVE question was a little tricky though. Present can mean "to give" as in "I present you with this trophy." Reserve can mean "to keep or hold" as in "I want to reserve this spot." I missed that one because I answered that they were contradictory. But, that was the only question that I even really had to think about. The others were pretty simple. I don't know how anybody could score so low on that test. Even if I was blowing it off and not even trying, I could still score above 75%.
Dan Marino scored a 10? I don't know, but that sure didn't bother him at all when it came to throwing the ball now did it, if he did though I got one good explaination for that, his nickname in college was Kite. I won't just blurt out why, but insert the proper word, because he was always .... (think about it). Has he come out to in defense of Ricky Williams?
I don't necessarily agree with with VY is doing, but I can certainly see where he's coming from. One of the main reasons his reputation is being "tarnished" is because the NFL seems to be going ga-ga over Jay Cutler. It's having a negative effect on Young -- if there wasn't a third horse in this QB race, Young's stock would still be as high as it was after the Rose Bowl.
I####uy like Young knows that his biggest question mark is his throwing ability, then why risk millions in an uncomfortable setting when you know you can put yourself in an optimal setting? Again, I don't agree, but I can see his point. If he takes the field in Austin and lives up to half of his hype, this discussion will be rendered meaningless.
I am of the opinion now that the 6 score was leaked on purpose so that Vince would reveal his true score in defense. It was someone's idea of payback for him not going to the combine.
Socal, this is obviously a good discussion and everyone is making solid points. As far as our previous side discussion goes, I think we could be both right, in a sense. A lot of what we will learn about Vince Young as a pro will be determined on several variables, like his coach, team, etc. But it's a toss up. The Eagles stunk for years before they picked Ried, while Butch Davis was one of the hottest college coaches in the game at the time the Browns signed him. Watching what he did with U of Miami from an organizational standpoint, I thought he had the capability of being successful. As for the Saints, they made the playoffs a few years ago and unti this season, they were near .500 nearly every year for the past 5-6 seasons. The Oilers/Titans were terrible--until they drafted McNair, hired Fischer and also brought in Eddie George.
The Lions had Joey Harrington (young QB who needed developed) and hired Marriucci (guy who helped mold Favre)...that is trying, it just didn't work out.
I guess my point is that it's a crapshoot. We have no idea who'll pan out and who won't. Pete Carroll wasn't that great in the pros, but he's a God-like figure in L.A. now. It's really just finding the right mix. Now, with that in mind, I think you are right, VY needs to have the right people, in the right place, with the right system--just like almost everyone else.
Thanks for the comments Moore and I can agree it is a #### shoot, but to the Browns, Lions, and Saints, I still say that none of those teams are good teams. Yes the Saints have been close to play offs, but never quite over the hump. But have they had a really good QB, Aaron Brooks?
Mariucci came in on the tail end of San Fran's glory years and by the time he left that franchise it is where it is today, at the bottom of the heap, so I am not sure he is the next great coach to help out any team. As to Butch Davis, he also followed Jimmy Johnson as the head coach of Miami and he was playing with his talent that he recruited. I did think he was a good college coach, but going to the pros is another thing and it proved he could not handle it just as Carroll could not handle it so on that point I still say that Couch was on a lousy team. LAstly, it does take more than a coach althought I do think that is a huge factor, but it takes an organization dedicated to bringing in all the right pieces to win. Marino was a great QB, but he never had all the talent to win. Sadly, Peyton has the talent around him at Indy, but has not won the big one yet. I hope he does. Marino never had a James in the backfield and a receiving corp as talented as the Colts. Thanks for all the comments and I do appreciate your viewpoint. I do think VY can be very special if given the chance on the right team and as I said before I think it could be TN. Fisher is a good coach and the organization has stood by him in lean years.
Last edited by socalsportsfan on March 3rd at 10:19 AM.
Socal, more good points. If you like Bill Simmons, he's got an interview with Malcom Galdwell, an author, and they discuss some things you might find interesting, about effort, talent, etc. You can click here to read it.
Hey socal I see you have posted a pix of yourself. Were you afraid we post one for you! I am away at a teaching convention for bilingual eduacators in San Jose. The new format is strang and is taking me awhile to figure out how to read and see post. How do see the post like before?
rae, you can click on the little heading that says
"read all recent posts" and you will be able to see the old screen, but you have to do it each time as far as I know. There is no default setting to get back to how it was. You can find that right under the recently changed posts.
As to my picture, I will change it to an avatar this weekend. But for now, everyone can see the real socal. I was tired of being compared to Sean Penn or the old superman.
Thanks socal, It is nice to know what you look like I can put a face to the nice writing. Maybe one day I will post my pix. But I like the ones they come up for me. The real me maybe disappointing lol
