Hypocrisy knows no end and the saga of Joe Torre is living proof. Am I calling Torre a hypocrite? Absolutely not. I think he's a genuine person who carries himself with integrity. What I am referring to is the way that literally thousands of people can resort to revisionist history to suit themselves.
Prior to the 1996 baseball season, the hiring of Joe Torre by the Yankees was almost universally questioned and criticized. The tabloids tactlessly referred to him as “Clueless Joe”. His managerial record was atrocious during his stints as skipper of the Mets, Braves and Cardinals. He had the reputation of being a good human being who was a bad manager due to a simplistic and passive style of leadership (hence the title of Clueless). Quite frankly the description of Joe the person still remains exactly the same. How is it though, that after 12 seasons with the Yankees many of these same people now contend that he is a great manager?
I’ll tell you why. To their many legions of haters, everyday is a great day to criticize the Yankees. On top of that, this is exactly the type of story the media will exploit to no end.
Ask yourself this. Why is it that the majority of people who now defend Joe Torre are not fans or even followers of the Yankees? I may not have conducted a Gallup poll but I do know LOTSof Yankees fans. Most of the ones I know aren’t disappointed to see Joe go. Sad perhaps but not angry. Somebody will no doubt tell me that these Yankees fans are not upset to see him leave because Yankees fans are… and always have been… total A-Holes. Yeah, that’s a great argument…but bring it if that’s all you got. Besides, that would only serve to reinforce my point about the blind hatred of all things Yankee that so many have.
I remember when the team was on its run of 4 World Series titles in 5 seasons. The common perception of Joe Torre was that he was not an elite manager and that a #### could lead the club. The team had great players and anything they were lacking could be easily attained using their vast finances. All Torre had to do was kick up his feet, get caught picking his nose on camera at least twice a game, collect his check and enjoy the ride. The Yankees were the Evil Empire, they were “ruining” baseball by winning all the time and it had nothing to do with the ability of “Clueless Joe” (their words not mine).
Now that New York hasn’t won a title for 7 straight seasons Joe Torre suddenly becomes a great... no make that legendary manager. Somebody please explain to me how that works. His teams win in the late 90s and according to his critics he had little or nothing to with it. Since 2001 Torre’s teams lose and these same pundits claim the players are a bunch of overpaid bums that are wasting the efforts of their divine leader. The fact that he managed the team to post-season appearances every year of his tenure is now proof of his abilities, but it wasn'tbefore? WHAT?!?!?!
It doesn’t matter if the Yankees win or lose because no matter what the situation there are those who will look to discredit someone or something within the organization. When they were on top Torre got zero props. Now that the team keeps falling short these same people use Torre as a means to take pot shots at the players. Hate the Yankees all you want but at least keep your stories straight. Torre is the same manager he always has been… and that would be an average one.
The fact that so many Yankees players spoke up for Torre should surprise no one. For Jeter, Posada and Rivera he is practically the onlymanager they have ever known. They briefly played for Buck Showalter in 1995 but that was as late season call-ups. Other players would support him too. Why wouldn’t they? He doesn’t get on their backs when they play poorly and he lets them do their thing. He’s an emotional fatherly figure with a kind heart. How could they dislike him? They certainly wouldn’t blame him, nor should they have.
I’m not saying that teams need to fear their managers or love them to be successful. Ultimately it is a working relationship or at least it should be. Things obviously haven’t been working in Yankees Land during the last 7 post-seasons. You know... the land where only a championship will do. Yeah, if that were the case then Joe would have been axed no later than after the 2003 World Series loss to the Florida Marlins. Just pointing that out since "championship or bust" is another misconception Yankees haters harp on.
In reality the blame is shared between Joe and his former team. As we know you can't fire all the players and keep the manager. However, there is a fine line that separates an elite manager from an average one such as Torre. People only remember this next point when it’s convenient, but so much of achieving success in any sport is mental. The elite coaches are the ones who can provide their teams with an edge where it matters most. That would be in their heads. This ability is lacking in Torre and it always has been. It just got covered up during the early years of his tenure with New York. The team won 4 World Series in spite of Joe Torre, not because of him. The real leader was Paul O’ Neill. For all intents and purposes he was virtually a player manager. Paul led by example on the field and in the clubhouse. It’s no coincidence that the fire has been missing since he retired.
George Steinbrenner should have conducted his business behind closed doors. Joe Torre was owed that. I’ll tell you this though. Joe Torre owes Steinbrenner and the Yankees a lot more than they owe him. They hired him when everyone else scoffed. They used a “blank check” policy to lavish him with players to field an elite level team year after year. They made him the highest paid manager in professional baseball…AND despite knowing better they still made him an offer to come back next season. An offer they knew he might refuse…but an offer that would have still kept him the most highly compensated manager in the sport by far. Just because it was a one-year deal that implied, "this is your last chance to win it all", doesn’t change the fact the Torre is the one who decided to leave. Point blank, the Yankees provided him with the opportunity to enjoy the best 12 years of his managerial life.
I love you Joe Torre but good riddance. The distraction you had become to the team, along with your managerial flaws, is not worth 5 million dollars. Change is good.
Well Joe Torre is a "distraction" to the team. Thats a new line. you say Torre isn't a "legendary" manager. Well, how many managers have lead their teams to 12 straight playoff appearances? Bobby Cox, Red Auerbach, and Joe Torre. Thats LEGENDARY!
I'm a new yorker and I remember the stories that Torre wasn't a great choice for the Yankees were in part because the beloved Buck Showalter was shown the door for no reason and Torre wasn't seen as an upgrade. However, Torre proved himself time and time again.
The idea that anyone could run the Yankees and have the same level of success is completely asinine.
I don't care who the Yankees hire for next season because that guy will be on the hottest hot seat in the history of sport.
When next years team starts out slow and Steinbrenner puts the heat on him, will that team get upset and go on a 63-39 run to save his job like the Yankees did for Torre?
5 years from now when the Yankees have missed the playoffs 3 out 5 years, Yankee fans will say "atleast we made the playoffs when Torre was here"
Hello there Mr. Met. I guess I'll start at the top. I didn't realize that the concept that Torre could be a distraction to the team was all that new. To be honest many people feel George has wanted to fire him for a few years now and the subject has come up before. Sorry but that's a distraction.
I also didn't say that anyone could run the Yankees and have the same level of success as Joe. However that was the concept among many when Joe was winning. I do think however that somebody could have run the team BETTER.
Which brings me to the entire point of the blog. How is it that Torre got less kudos when the team won than he does now when the team loses. In my opinion its bias. Whatever the most negative picture people can paint is the picture that will be painted. The Yankees will always be portrayed as villains someway somehow.
I admit and stated that Joe deserved to have this settled privately. However the Yankees are built to contend every year. His job was not as difficult as many people are trying to make it out to be. Far too many times when everything was on the line the team came up short. That falls on the manager.
The players went 63-39 for themselves every bit as much as Torre. If you are going to blame the players when they lose then give them credit when they win.
Hey Rivjo, interesting post and a perspective I wouldn't have expected from a Yankee fan. I don't know why, but I assumed most Yankee followers would have looked at Torre with fond affection. I do know that watching from up the highway, it did seem to me that Torre subjected himself to justifiable criticism every year with his (mis)management of the bullpen. Good post....
Rev---If I was harsh I would like to state that the harshness is less for Joe Torre and more for those who now consider him one of the "best managers ever" because it is a convenient angle to attack the Yankees from.
I agree with the "Joe deserved for all this to go down quietly arguement". Big George could have kept quiet.
"The Joe Torre is the reason the Yankees are always in the playoffs" #### is something else. It just bugs me when people talk out of both sides of their mouths. Like no one will remember what they used to say.
Anyway of all the candidates I have heard about it sounds like a 3-man race between Mattingly, Girardi and LaRussa. I'd rank them:
1) Giradi
2) Mattingly
3) LaRussa
I think Girardi can be lively, upbeat, outspoken and hold the team to high standards. I don't think the team necessarily needs a drill seargeant but they do need a vocal leader. He also can't handle a pitching staff any worse than Torre did. Injuries or no injuries Torre knows how to butcher a staff and overwork only the guys he trusts.
If he was ever to be a candidate in the future, I would love to see Paul O'Neill in charge. I think many Yankees fans would love that.
halfbaked---I guess I may sound harsh as reverend said. The truth of the matter is that I like Joe Torre ALOT. I think all Yankees fans are "fond" of him. That's the problem. Sometimes personal feelings cloud judgement. I think Torre has been around this long because the organization didn't want to hurt him. Finally things bubbled over and it ended poorly. I hope for nothing but the best for him and wish it didn't have to end the way it did.
However, I still need to be honest. I don't think he was a brilliant manager. An adequate one more than capable of running a team. Since the Yanks always have a solid team his job was that much easier. I just don't agree with all the recent talk now making Joe out to be some type of managerial genius. It may be my opinion but he isn't and I have felt this way for many years.
I appreciate the thorough discussion here, particularly from the perspective of someone who follows the team as closely as you do.
For what its worth, from an outsider's POV, I always saw Torre and the Yankees as the perfect fit for one another once he got past the initial growing pains.
I think it takes a certain personality with certain people skills to manage in NYC, and some seemingly great candidates might not have the right combo of that to succeed. I think Torre has that in his fit with the Yankees.
That said, I think you're right about the way people see his tenure. However, like NFL QB's, MLB managers tend to get too much credit when the team wins and too much blame when they lose.
No matter his merits and flaws in the dugout I do think he deserved much better than the way things were so publicly played out and that the structure of the contract (and the public nature of those terms) seemed too blatantly constructed not have been specifcally designed to rub his face in the team's recent playoff struggles.
Again, I appreciate the thorough, articulate, and passionate discussion you've posted here. Good job. Keep up the good work.
I saw a poll on SportsCenter this morning (man, I really need to get a life) that showed Mattingly the leader among all poll respondents, but among people responding from New York/New Jersey, the leader was Girardi by a lot. I personally thought of Girardi as a potental Yankee manager of the future as soon as he left Florida....I still think it will be him....
Nooch---You know in many ways he was a very good fit for the team, especially as it pertained to dealing with the NYC media. He was always calm and didn't feed into the deliberate attempts to make stories any bigger than they had to be.
He was also good with the players in that they cared for him and trusted him. He treats people the right way and they appreciated that.
Allow me to make an analogy though and keep in mind it's a theory since I don't really know these people. I think the relationship with Torre and the players was like a marriage and a good one. He cared for the team and the team cared for him. As time goes on the feelings stay but the "spark" isn't what is used to be. The players would do whatever they could for him but their was never any fear of consequence. Kind of like knowing your spouse would never leave you. In other words sometimes things get taken for granted and even the most well intentioned people can become complacent.
In a way I think that is kind of what happened with the Yankees. It may sound wacky but it's the best I can come up with. I hope you follow my train of thought.
Well now the marriage is over so here's to the Yankees finding a new spark next year.
halfbaked---I can't speak for all Yankees fans but part of the reason I prefer Girardi is that I do not want to see Mattingly fail. He reminds me too much of Torre. Stoic, reserved and quiet. On the field he led by example with his play not his voice. I worry that he does not have a strong enough personality to manage especially with zero experience in that capacity.
As for Girardi, he will be heard. I think he will also get along fine with the players and he will have their respect. It's been said that catchers make the best managers and Girdi is articulate and intelligent. He broadcast games for the Yankees this year so he has had an outsider's birdseye view of the team all season long. He is familiar with the personnel and their abilities. In my humble opinion he is as close to a perfect fit as possible. As a former Yankee from the championship teams he is also aware of the needs with dealing with the media. Heck, technically he WAS part of the media this year.
There is certainly alot of propping up and then tearing down in professional sports. I just strive for consistency.
I have long claimed feelings of good will for Torre theman. However I have watched virtually every Yankees game in the last 25 years and every game of importance. He is a great players manager, an adequate strategist and a below average motivator...but that's just my humble opinion.
At least he has it where it counts best. That would be as a person and that is what has kept him around so long.
Overpaid players or not he always has had way more to work with than most in NY.
i see alot of for or against JT tonite well for this dude im renouncing by NY baseball cap to the dumpster ive had it with all this if we dont win it all BS why not be happy you guys have a damn ball team!!!!! we in the pacific NW and for those in NY its not orgun or orygun its portland oregon!!!! no we dont have a ball team but would love to have one!!! and im sure if we did we would be happy to play the damn game the way its suppose to be played its called ENJOYMENT!!!!!!! give the fans a fun night at the ball yard as babe ruth called it!!! remeber him yanks???? quit your moaning !!! i hope EVERY BALL PLAYER WHO RESPECTED JOE TORRE LEAVES AND FLIPPS OFF NY!!!!!!! ohhh not the METS BUT THE HOUSE THAT RUTH BUILT!!!!!!!!!
kellyscott---Don't misconstrue the whole point of my entire blog. I have less of an axe to grind with Joe Torre than I do with people who wail against the Yankees.
I am quite sure the fine people of Oregon would love a professional baseball team. The fine people of NY have had one for over a hundred years so of course perspectives will be different.
Unfortunately for Joe Torre being a good guy does not entitle him to a job managing the Yankees forever. Although all the blame is not his and in fact the majority of blame goes to the players he has one specific job.
A manager must have his team playing their best when it matters most. He must provide a mental edge of confidence and passion. As can only be seen by their recent performance in the playoffs the team has sorely been lacking this. They have appeared flat and uncertain if anything.
We can argue til the cows come home that the players should do this themselves. I would then ask you what is the exact purpose of having a manager in the first place?
I love Torre but his time has passed. Change is good. It's just unfortunate how it was handled.
If you think that the Yankees playing better in the second half had nothing to do with the players backing Torre then you're very wrong.
The fact is that no one is blaming the players. The Yankee braintrust is blaming Torre and decided to have him be the first "performance based" Yankee manager in history, which is a slap in the face.
Someone tell me why Brian Cashman walks away with clean hands and Torre gets shafted? It doesn't make any sense to me why Yankee fans believe Torre is at the root of the Yankee problems.
But, like I said before, you wanted change so you have change. Just who out there is going to manage a team full of All-Stars, the NY media, 3 Steinbrenners AND win the world series?
Bottomline, if your not planning on hiring Bobby Cox then your not hiring a manager better than Joe Torre. Torre is not just a good guy, he was a heck of a manager.
Hey Yankee fans can beat Torre out the door all they want. A few years down the road Torre will be missed.
Be clear, the Yankees are more vulnerable without Torre no matter what free agent they stick in their lineup. Torre was a voice of reason and now that voice is gone.
Don't you guys know your owner by now? Torre helped keep that man calm by taking all the abuse.
Steinbrenner wants Bonds on the team and has wanted him for years. Torre wouldn't take that guy.
It's amazing to me that Yankee fans can't see how damaging this is going to be long term.
You now have your change. But when you change from a leader of a dynasty to a question mark it's not a good thing.
Last edited by METROPOLITAN 2007 on October 20th at 1:28 AM.
kellyscott---Aww...don't be so hard on yourself. I understand where you are coming from. The personal side of me is very sad to see Torre go too. The business side of me sees change as a potential catalyst for improvement.
You are always welcome and thanks for reading. Without differing viewpoints we'd all be pretty bored.
Met---Who says nobody blames the players? I did. I think anybody with a sane bone in their body knows that the players deserve the most blame when they lose and the most credit when they win. A manager only effects a handful of games all year.
With that said a manager is there to provide a mental edge to his team. He is there to help players achieve a higher level by instilling passion. In theory every player tries hard and wants to win. Having played sports I know I did my best when I was confident and inspired by MY coach to get out there and "crack some skulls" to coin a cliche. In my opinion this area is Torre's greatest weakness.
As for the second half turnaround, maybe they were playing for Torre. That had a part to do with it. However how can you with a straight face not give them credit for doing it for themselves too. In all honestly it appeared that the good play was more so inspired by the youth movement. The youngsters...who have the shortest history with Torre and therefore owe him the least, provided a huge spark that was contagious for the older players. For the first time in years it looked like the veterans were having fun again and it had more to do with a bunch of rookies than with their manager. If you are getting your motivation from a bunch of kids and NOT your leader then that is PATHETIC.
Joe Torre is a great man,a players coach and terrific with the media. I admit that and I will miss him. However I think you overrate him and Bobby Cox. Cox had a great team all those years too and pitchers named Maddux, Smoltz and Glavine had something to d
Met cont'd---Maddux, Smoltz and Glavine had something to do with all those post-season appearances in a row. Let's not forget that in all those years they won ONE and only ONE title. Not to say Cox is a nobody but you can't in one breath claim that "it's all up to the players" and then in the next breath give the manager all the credit.
As for Steinbrenner, you overrate his legend as well. He is a shell of his former ogreish self. You hardly ever hear from him anymore and he let Torre manage for 12 years for crying out loud. The last 7 of which they have won no titles. How can you say the Yankees are axeing the leader of a dynasty when the dynasty has been dead for 7 years.
I do agree with you that Cashman does not get off scott-free. The Yanks can get rid of him too anytime they would like. However, I have long heard rumors that he has often been opposed to bringing in many of these high priced free agents but the fabled "Tampa Contingent" has talked him into it. Even so he has many questionable roster acquisitions on his resume.
You do make some valid points. Even so I think you let your admiration for Joe Torre the "good man" cloud your judgement. This makes it hard for you to be more objective about his actual performance as a manager when everything is on the line. (No offense to you intended) In those situations Torre has made tons of mistakes.
Nice blog Rivjo. Maybe now the Yanks will hire a manager with some personality and fire. The only time Joe showed emotion was when he stopped the eternal arm folding and picked a winner. Now thats talent!!!!
You say the "youth movement" owed Torre nothing. Thats interesting being that it was Torre's call to play these guys. Moving Damon from center to left was a Torre move but I guess Cabrera felt nothing when Torre moved an All-Star out of position to start him everyday.
You say Torre is not a good motivator. Well when the Yankees won they had a bunch of very old role players like Charlie Hayes, Strawberry, Cecil Fielder, Chuck Knoblauch, Graeme Lloyd, you know a bunch of guys who were over the "hill" and well over 30. I guess these veterans took all those brow beatings from Paul O'neal and suddenly decided to man up.
You make a good argument that the players should get the credit when a team does well and the blame when a team fails. However, why doesn't that same theory apply to Joe Torre?
12 years of making the playoffs isn't enough to say that Torre is a great manager? 4 world series was won with reclamation projects is not worthy of merit? Take a look at those rosters. You won in '96 with Charlie Hayes and Jim Leyritz starting for chrissakes!!!
I don't get why Red Auerbach, who had 5 Hall of Famers, is genius. Phil Jackson, who had the greatest player ever, is a genius, but Joe Torre is just some average guy who lucked into the yankees at the right time and anyone could have done the same. It is a very interesting take.
Its funny because in 1996, Torre had the same team Buck Showalter had minus the great Don Mattingly amd won the world series.
Last edited by METROPOLITAN 2007 on October 20th at 10:55 AM.
No, rivjo, you don't have professional baseball players, what you have are mercenaries , people who sold out for the ALMIGHTY DOLLAR and to #### with the fan! Steinbrinner is acting like a baseball pimp by waving his gadzillons of dollars around .....and the biggest baseball #### he caught was Roger Clemens!!!! Just how well did that work out for you, spoiled Yankee fans??!! Jow Torre was the ONLY Yankee with class and dignity so King George the III (LOON) cans him!!!!
That 1998 team was choke full of all stars like, Homer Bush, Chad Curtis, Tim Raines, Joe Girardi, Shane Spencer, Chili Davis, Luis Sojo, Ricky Ledee and lets not forget that great 3-4-5 order in the lineup that where Paul O'neal, Tino Martinez and Darryl Strawberry. Who wouldn't win 114 games with that group?
There is no doubt that Torre and Cashman had a Yankee formula. There is no doubt that in 2001 they were undermined by Steinbrenner signing Jason Giambi and in 2003 when Stienbrenner signed Sheffield and again when the "Tampa contingent" made the decision to trade Soriano for A-Rod.
Those players aren't the Yankee model that Torre and Cashman and Bob Watson before them set up.
The Yankees were about the sac bunt, moving runners over, sac flies, stealing bases. Not the 3 run homerun team they are today.
I seem to recall Bill Parcells saying something about buying his own groceries to cook up his kind of team.
Rivjo, you can feel what you want about Torre, just don't sell him too short by saying the players won all those titles all by themselves.
mistergreg---Thanks for the visit. As much as I respect Torre he is about as animated as Eeyore. I understand he is 67 years old but that's how he's always been.
The only big name players gained as FREE Agents of any significance are Hideki Matsui, Johnny Damon and Clemens. Clemens' body obviously can't take the rigors anymore. He was a waste of money and I won't argue that.
Either way people such as yourself will bash the Yankees no matter what. Your opinions are hard to take seriously because you can't get past your bias.
Met---If you are going to argue about the Yanks then please get the facts straight. You make it sound like the 1998 team was a bunch of nobodies by naming a bunch of role players.
Their Big 4 starters in their PRIMES were David Cone, Andy Pettite, Orlando "El Duque" Hernandez and David Wells. They had their best bullpen of the Joe Torre era with Mike Stanton, Jeff Nelson and Mariano Rivera along with Ramiro Mendoza in long relief. That pitching staff was probably the BEST in the ENTIRE American League.
Their everyday lineup was:
2B Chuck Knoblauch (before the throwing problems)
SS Derek Jeter
RF Paul O'Neill
1B Tino Martinez
CF Bernie Williams
DH Chili Davis/Darryl Strawberry
C Jorge Posada
3B Scott Brosius (Fabulous glove and oh so clutch)
LF Chad Curtis/Ricky Ledee
The only weak spot in the order was in LF and even Chad Curtis was a gritty professional who knew how to play hardball.
Yeah, Joe Torre really had a lot of hard decisions to make that year.
Met cont'd---Another point you might want to look into before you further criticize the Yanks is the whole comment about them only being a "3 run HR" team as you put it.
I bet you could have guessed that the Yankees LED the American League this year in HR (201) Runs (968) RBI (929) Batting (.290) SLG (.463) OBP (.366) and OPS (.829) but did you know they were ALSO 4th in the American League in both steals (123) and sacrifice hits (41)?
They had a diverse and complete offense. At least during the regular season.
No I bet you didn't know that because you insist on buying into the stereotypes that you want to believe instead of looking through an unbiased filter.
Now as far as Torre goes...I LIKE the guy. However, just because he has tons of class does not mean he should have his job forever nor does that make him the best manager in the game. He was a great "figurehead" for the franchise and a man of respect. As a manager he was just average. Sorry but that's how I feel.
i try riv, i try. i dunno. i've been thinking about it. writing about the pats too easy. maybe you should write that mangini is not the coach he's been built up to be. a fraud. that might do it.
I don't know the stats huh? Funny.
1st, Cone, Wells and El Duque were all 34 or older.
Thats not being in your prime.
Nelson and Stanton were over 30 also. And the reason your bullpen was so good that year was because Torre would sent out Rivera for the 8th inning a TON that year.
Please don't tell me your some authority on stats when you're basically saying Joe Torre's stats DONT COUNT!
This is what I'm talking about since you don't get it.
In the top of the 7th inning of game 2 with the Indians up 1-0. Abreu reached base on an error with no one out. The next three batters, Arod, Matsui, and Posada attempted no bunt, not even an attempt to steal a base, no attempt to move the runner over, nothing.
In 1998, O'neal, Martinez and Strawberry would have given themselves up to get the tying run home.
That is winning baseball and THAT is exactly what I'm talking about. You seem intelligent so how my point went over your head I have no clue.
But thats the difference in Yankee teams. The stars back then would get that run home no matter what. Today your guys just bash. How many sac flies or bunts or steals did you have in the playoffs Rivjo?
I said it before you can feel what you want about Torre. But it's my opinion that Yankee fans are buying into the "Tampa" idea that these Yankee teams shouldv'e won World series and it's Torre's fault they didn't.
Mets---No you really don't know your stats. Age is just a number and it's performance that truly matters.
Those 4 starters combined for 66 wins that year and keep in mind that El Duque only made 21 starts. Also Cone was 35 as was Wells and El Duque was only 32. I didn't realize this made them dinosaurs.
Those "lightweight" hitters in 1998 combined for 207 HRs as a team (more than in 2007) and they had EIGHT players hit at least 17 dingers during the season.
They sacrificed 32 times in 1998 which is actually LESS than they did this season.
Mariano pitched 61 innings in 54 games in 1998 meaning he pitched 2 innings a whopping total of SEVEN times that year.
As for the 2007 batch of Yankees not doing things like "bunting" the runner over in a critical situations during the playoffs, isn't it the MANAGER'S job to tell them to do so.
How about NOT getting the team off the field when the midge flies invaded in Cleveland...or NOT telling Joba to throw fastballs instead of his slider in the dirt...or last year humiliating A-Rod by dropping him to 8th in the order during the playoffs. That was REAL great for team morale.
Listen I like Torre but he is not some superb baseball manager. He is just a likeable guy.
Its not about how many bunts and sac flies a team has, its about when the team uses them in the context of the game that matters.
I believe Torre would never send a bunt sign to Arod because he would get a nasty phone call from a Steinbrenner. And thats the difference because Torre wouldn't hesitate to send one to Jeter or a Tino Martinez.
Cone was coming off an arm surgery and an aneurysm. El Duque was "thought" to be 32 but was really 35 at the time.
Look we could go back and forth on this all day because stats can be twisted in any direction.
My opinion is Torre is more than just a likeable guy, he was a very good manager.
You disagree and thats fine. Time will tell who is right in this argument.
Met---I can honestly say I can't recall ever seeing Tino Martinez bunt. Jeter yes and A-Rod no. Not telling a player to bunt because you're worried about a call from Steinbrenner is not something I think ever crossed Torre's mind and if it did then even more reason he needed to go.
A few more stats for I really do like them. David Cone went 20-7 in 1998. David Wells 18-4 and Pettite 16-11. El Duque went 12-4 in 21 games which put him on pace to finish about 18-6 by my estimation if he had pitched a full season. Heck even Hideki Irabu went 13-9. That is a hell of a staff by any measure and no matter what their ages were.
Also the only reason Melky got a shot in CF was because Damon was too hurt to play it effectively. Otherwise he would barely have cracked the lineup. Joe's wisdom had little to do with it.
We will have to agree to disagree like you said. For the record though I do not think Torre was a terrible manager. I just think he was average and I question people proclaiming his greatness as a way to take cheap shots at the Yanks.
Just want you to know that I have no hard feelings. I'm a New Yorker as you are and I enjoy a good debate. Hope to interact again with you in the future. Maybe next time we will agree!
Josh Q.---I would be willing to write poorly of Mangenius but of course there would have to be a disclaimer. As a matter of fact I would probably roast the entire Jest organization and that was no typo. Maybe near the end of the season?
As for beers in the city I could be down for that. I checked the calendar and see that they play on Dec. 16. at 1:00. My family is still down there. I think I told you before but I live upstate now. My sister lives down by South Street Seaport. There's a couple of good bars near there I know of and it's a cool spot to hang out. If I remember you live right over the river in Jersey so that would be pretty close for you.
No hard feelings at all. I love debating sports and in NY there is no doubt you will find passionate opinions on every corner.
You make good points so I will check for your posts in the future.
Last comment on Torre. Are you at least concerned that Tampa has finally separated Cashman and Torre?
Do you really think that 3 steinbrenners and a new manager will breathe new life into this team?
Joe Torre was an average-at-best baseball manager. It wasn’t until he hooked up with the high payroll of the New York Yankees that Torre became a “genius”. The Yankees won the World Series under Torre in 1996, 1998, 1999, & 2000. But the real genius was how those teams were put together.
They got David Cone & David Wells from Toronto, Roger Clemens from Boston, and Mike Mussina from Baltimore. Let’s see, I’m going to take the best pitchers from my division opponents and add them to my pitching staff. I’m making my team stronger while weakening my opponents. I contend that almost every manager in the majors would have done as well, if not better, than Torre.
In his first stint as New York’s manager, that would be the New York Mets from ’77 to ’81, the team showed no improvement from year to year with winning percentages of 419, 407, 389, 414, & 398. He then went to the Atlanta Braves and inherited a very good team that Bobby Cox had on the edge of greatness. Torre came and in 3 years destroyed all the good that had been done before him. The Braves finished 1st and then 2nd and finally 3rd and if Torre had stuck around they would have been dead last in no time. He miss-managed all the prospects the farm system had to offer and left the team in an awful state.
He re-surfaced with the Cardinals in 1990 and in his first full season they took home a 2nd place finish. He followed that up with three 3rd place finishes and had a solid hold on 4th place when he was let go. (Do we see a pattern here? Joe Torre led teams get worse, not better!)
Met---To answer your question I am not concerned at all that Torre and Cashman have been separated. I am concerned in the sense that whenever there are changes in just about anything it is always impossible to know for sure exactly what will happen. I guess that's why change in general makes people anxious.
The reason why I am not concerned in this case is that I feel this is the type of change that makes people work harder. Not to imply that Torre did not work hard, just that after 12 years of the same routine the entire organization likely fell into a "business as usual" mindset.
I think the younger players such as Cano, Cabrera and the potential arsenal of young pitchers... along with a new manager and core of veterans looking to make a statement... will be all the breath of fresh air that will be needed.
That and some freakin' decent middle relievers and set-up men. Otherwise I think the team should try to bring everybody back (Rivera, Posada, A-Rod, Pettite) and make one last run at this together.
wildeman---I'm wild about your opinion. Then again of course I would be since it's the same as mine!
Virtually everybody has respect and admiration for Joe Torre the gentleman. He is impossible not to like. However, since when did being a nice guy qualify a person to be considered one of the greatest managers of all time when prior to that he was considered to be below average. Yet another example of nice guys finishing last.
I think when you combine his pre-season managerial record with his Yankees record he qualifies as an average manager. Which all things considered isn't so bad.
It's just far too easy to give Torre too much credit now since it fuels the agenda of anti-Yankees rhetoric that so many have. People don't need much to attack the Yankees and this was far to good a story to pass up.
Concerning Torre and the Yankees. I like Torre and am sorry to see him go. I also, at my age, know that over the years, most Yankee managers of any duration at all, have had stormy careers so this is not particularly suprising. What suprises me is that he lasted as long as he did. After all, it is the Bronx Zoo.
Steinbrenner, like Kobe and others well known within their sport are well known for their open and agressive and abrasive styles.And widely critized constantly. Yet on the other hand when a manager or player such as Tim Duncan or Walter Alston (Dodgers cira 60's) are quiet, it matters littleo if they win or not. Their widely critized as "boring" or "bland". Can't win. Haters on the left Haters on the right. YAWN
Bottom line, is as I read you saying, Managers like players, rock stars (Stones excepted), Actors and others in the public limelight; are similar to dated food products on the shelf in a grocery. Almost all have a"shelf life"and when that expiration date comes, it's usually OK for a while after that date but at some point even for the most daring among us that item has been around so long, you've come to look at "it" as canned beets that you just don't fell comfortable risking it any longer cause you don't like "beets" that well anymore like you used to anyhow.
Last edited by Dusty_Outlaw on October 22nd at 6:59 PM.
In Torre's case he was "beets" you only picked up on sale to begin with because they were there and you were there and you were really hungry and turned out you liked beets a whole lot more than you used to. But once again, your taste buds changed and there you have it. "What the hell am I doing with beets in this cabinet? I never really liked beets anyhow?"
Dusty---I loved that comparison. I think the shelf life point was right on the money. After awhile things get old or stale and it's time for something fresh. That is a perfect analogy for the Yanks and Torre.
The beets thing killed me. My wife plants a garden every summer and she always grows zucchini. When it first ripens we're loving it. Saute it up in olive oil with seasoning and some parmesan cheese. Yum. By the end of the summer the stuff just rots. I'm all zucchinied out. Just like Torre was although beets were a better fit with it's red angry color.
I'm a special ed teacher by trade. Funny, I spend my day wanting to say shut-up to people and then do the same here. Just can't seem to. That would be rude and most uncivilized.
I like to write and never met a thought I couldn't continue. My blogs, like this bio, tend to be far too long. I can admit it. If you make it to the end of one of my "essays" there's usually a message that could have been written in half the time by a better writer than me.
Did I mention I was a finalist in NGS II? No really I was, further proving that theyll let anyone in this place. I came in 10th, which is better than 16th I guess. Other than winning the 4th grade graduation writing award it was the biggest literary accomplishmen t of my life. I still haven't gotten used to being famous.
thousands of people can resort to revisionist history to suit themselves. 
Ask yourself this. Why is it that the majority of people who now defend Joe Torre are not fans or even followers of the Yankees? I may not have conducted a Gallup poll but I do know LOTS of Yankees fans. Most of the ones I know aren’t disappointed to see Joe go. Sad perhaps but not angry. Somebody will no doubt tell me that these Yankees fans are not upset to see him leave because Yankees fans are… and always have been… total A-Holes. Yeah, that’s a great argument…but bring it if that’s all you got. Besides, that would only serve to reinforce my point about the blind hatred of all things Yankee that so many have. 
common perception of Joe Torre was that he was not an elite manager and that a 
The fact that so many Yankees players spoke up for Torre should surprise no one. For Jeter, Posada and Rivera he is practically the only manager they have ever known. They briefly played for Buck Showalter in 1995 but that was as late season call-ups. Other players would support him too. Why wouldn’t they? He doesn’t get on their backs when they play poorly and he lets them do their thing. He’s an emotional fatherly figure with a kind heart. How could they dislike him? They certainly wouldn’t blame him, nor should they have. 
separates an elite manager from an average one such as Torre. People only remember this next point when it’s convenient, but so much of achieving success in any sport is mental. The elite coaches are the ones who can provide their teams with an edge where it matters most. That would be in their heads. This ability is lacking in Torre and it always has been. It just got covered up during the early years of his tenure with New York. The team won 4 World Series in spite of Joe Torre, not because of him. The real leader was Paul O’ Neill. For all intents and purposes he was virtually a player manager. Paul led by example on the field and in the clubhouse. It’s no coincidence that the fire has been missing since he retired. 
players to field an elite level team year after year. They made him the highest paid manager in professional baseball…AND despite knowing better they still made him an offer to come back next season. An offer they knew he might refuse…but an offer that would have still kept him the most highly compensated manager in the sport by far. Just because it was a one-year deal that implied, "this is your last chance to win it all", doesn’t change the fact the Torre is the one who decided to leave. Point blank, the Yankees provided him with the opportunity to enjoy the best 12 years of his managerial life. 
