I knew the Pau Gasol trade caused ripples throughout the NBA, but I did not foresee it scaring the bejeezus out of teams as it apparently has done to the Suns. As rumor has it, Shaq is going to Phoenix for Shawn Marion and Marcus Banks. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this.
As far as the Suns front office goes, I can understand why they think they'd need to do this on the surface. But for every seemingly valid reason, I can't help but doubt it in the end.
1) Nash is 34 (as of tomorrow) and his window is closing. Yes, Nash is getting older and his back is some reason for concern. However, his output would seem to indicate otherwise. His PER almost identical to the last three years, two of which he won the MVP. If you look at the overall picture, he's actually IMPROVED with age. His window seems to still be wide open. 2) Amare isn't a center and getting a true center will save him the fouls he gets at the C position. Maybe. But I'm not sure. I think the logic is good, but the player is wrong. Shaq is a foul machine himself (1 foul every 7 minutes). If anything, I wonder if Amare will have to not only make up for Shaq's defensive limitations to come over to block shots, but also recover for whoever Shawn Marion would have been guarding. Marion is an overrated defender, but he's still better than Grant Hill and Boris Diaw. Shaq has always been susceptible to the pick and roll, and teams know this. Getting Shaq out top fully defeats the purpose of acquiring him to plug up the lane. If they got him to counter Bynum, good luck. Bynum's most effective rolling hard and quick to the cup - exactly what Shaq is not. If they got him to counter Duncan, frankly, Timmy has owned Amare AND Shaq in the post. Shaq's just not the defensive presence he used to be and I don't see him helping Amare that much. Instead, now they're below average defensively at 4 of the 5 positions (only Raja is above average and he's replaced by Barbosa, who, as a 1 on 1 defender is average at best). This will have to be a gambling team, hoping to create turnovers off of steals. Those kinds of teams don't generally make it far in the playoffs. 3) The playoffs are a halfcourt style game, where the game slows down and big men are a premium. Thus as currently constructed, a title is out of reach so the risk is worth it. So, the system that has made you so successful is going to be abandoned? This team won 60+ games the last two years, is on pace for another 60(ish), and made the Western Conference finals two of the last 3 years, and probably should have been in the finals last year (ahem, Robert Horry). I've heard it argued that Shaq will be the inbounder and you don't need 5 guys to run a break. Ok, well, first I find it amusing that it's automatically assumed they'll be INBOUNDING the ball and not REBOUNDING the ball. Anyway, Marion was the best guy on the team besides Amare for finishing those breaks. He fit the system perfectly and the system was working. Traditionally, teams keep their core intact and build towards a championship after several years of failure. If this crew couldn't do it this year, I could understand the move, but right now, it just doesn't seem to be worth the risk. 4) Shaq will be rejuvenated by his return to contender status. This is probably true. For a short while. But all reports show he's still not recovered from his injury. The safe bet is, he'll be injured again. Even in his prime, injuries were constant concern. All the rejuvenation in the world doesn't heal old and creaky, and Shaq is only getting older and creakier. 5) Financially, this is better because Marion doesn't have to be extended. Well, Marion didn't have to be extended anyway and his contract ends in 2009. Shaq's goes to 2010, by which time you're almost guaranteed he'll be a huge albatross around the team's neck, whereas Marion would at least still be young and spry. 6) Shaq helps match up with the big Western Conference teams. True. But they also now match up better with you. Your biggest advantage - quickness, speed and athleticism - is diminished. I think Marion is a better fit. 7) Marion is a malcontent and a cancer who needs to be traded. Malcontent, yes. But he's always been that way. He's never felt like he got his due. But it never affected his play on the court. An pouting Marion is still better than a happy yet creaky Shaq (who will, inevitably, become a pouting and creakier Shaq).
In the end, I could be very wrong about all of this. Maybe the frontline of Shaq, Amare and Hill is big enough to match up with Odom, Gasol and Bynum. Maybe Shaq, now motivated, has his ailments suddenly disappear and he works himself frantically to get in better shape. Maybe Nash can get Shaq the ball in positions where he can be effective again. Yes, maybe. I just have my doubts.
shaq just would not be able to keep up with the run and gun style of the Suns - he is not a fit for this team - he needs to retire or go to a team where he does not have to run and hurt his hips more. How well would he fit with Nash - seems as if he still has a little resentment for Nash winning the MVP over him - would he not be as bad or a bigger cancer to the team than Marion who can still run and jump?
UNBELIVEABLE, why on earth would they go after Shaq? Shaq is a nice guy and all but he is done, stick in the fork. And let me see he can't make a free throw when it counts so you can't play him in crunch time he is just a space eater on a quick team. DOES NOT COMPUTE!!!
I thought it was a joke at first, but the reasonings i could find was, that even shaq being at his worst averages still is better than Marion being a scared little girl in the playoffs! Shaq would move amare back to his natural Power Forward, Nash will be able to feed shaq down low and shaq can kick the ball back out. Everyone tells the suns they will never win with this style then they make a trade and everyone says they are stupid? After last seasons frustrating display i welcome this trade,
Marion was the most dangerous spur on offense. Shaq is immobile. I understand why this trade is being made. I just can't see it working out. Shaq is past his playing years...has been for at least 2 years now. On the other hand, if anybody can bring out whatever is left in Shaq it would be nash. I'm a shaq fan....age cannot be over come...Shaq will be sitting on the bench in a suit for more games than he ever plays in.
Even though the Suns haven't been able to get past the Spurs in the playoffs, its hard to say that its because Amare has been "owned" by the big Fundamental. Its been a back and forth battle TD edging him here, than Amare getting him a game or two later. To reset the past playoff series between the two, 2007 game1: 20 points 18 boards for Amare.
Game2: 29p 9b,
Game3: 21p 5b,
game4: 26p 9b.
Game5: dnp. Game6: 38p 12b.
2005 playoffs (they didn't meet in 06) game1: 41p 9b, game2: 37p 8b,
game3: 34p 11b,
game4:31p 5b,
game5: 42p 16b. He didn't play in the 04 playoffs, but it was in Amare's rookie year in the 03 playoffs (2002-2003 season) duncan did his best against him here. Game1:24p 9b.
Game2:5p 6b.
Game3: 17p 2b,
Game4:7p 14b,
game5: 14p 14b.
game6: 18p 10b, so yes you can make an arguement that TD owned Amare, in Amare's Rookie year. Other than that the battle between Amare and TD is close, Td gets an game or two then Amare gets a game or two. But But not since then, not in the Playoffs. Have the Spurs owned the Suns, absolutely and thats all that matters in the postseason, but to no fault of Amare's.
The Sun's in the past tried to mix it up on TD not letting Amare guard him 100%, they would throw Kurt Thomas, Borias Diaw, among others on Duncan so Duncan's numbers are not on Stoudemire alone.
When I first heard about this, I thought Steve Kerr has lost his mind, but the more I thought about it, the more it made sense.
First, Shaq doesn't have to run -- or even score. There are plenty of other Suns that can do that. Shaq needs to defend: Bynum, Gasol, Duncan, Ming, and Chandler. That list of bigs is also the list of reasons why the undersized Suns may not ever get through half-court oriented playoff basketball and win a ring.
Second, the Suns have chemistry problems, Marion for Shaq will probably address that in a big way.
Third, the windows is closing for Nash and Hill. Shaq's window is half shut, but he can probably still put up Bynum or Chandler-like numbers, especially with a player like Nash slipping him the ball. I think Shaq will be more productive with limited minutes in the Suns’ system than he was in the Heat’s.
Fourth, even with the best record in the West, the Suns are not the consensus favorite for NBA champions, are they? Why? Because this same basic unit hasn’t been able to do it when they were younger and more able to run, so why would we think they can do it now that other teams in the West have improved so much? The Suns are paying the luxury tax either way, but the Shaq intrigue may be the risk that they’ve not taken in the past, the risk that could pay big.
Fifth, Boris Diaw has grown and can fill the void left by Marion, albeit with some drop off, but the Suns can absorb it.
Sixth, Shaq is divorcing. A new town and a new start has to be appealing to him in his personal life.
Seventh, don’t tell me Shaq won’t be motivated to get another ring right there in Kobe’s neighborhood!
The Suns have to do something, they would never win a ring with what they have. It is a big risk, but if the Diesel can be even a mini van for 20 minutes a game, it will payoff in the playoffs which is where they have failed in the past. Plus it'll be great watching the Suns destroy the Lakers again this year in the playoffs.
Shawn's contract doesn't run through 2009 unless he chooses to extend it, which is highly unlikely. I think we could have shopped for a better (younger) big man, but we had to get something for Shawn before he opted out and we were left with nothing. At least we still have ATL's pick so we can draft someone decent as well.
I'm biting my tongue on this one. I don't want to be a nay-sayer, but seriously, does he have ANYTHING left in him? Then again, has Marion ever been very useful in the post season?
So can we now call the Suns the Magic West? They have Shaq (a former Magic player), Hill (a former Magic player) and Stoudamire (played high school ball at Cypress Creek in Orlando).
I'm not sure this experiment will work. I'd think the Suns would have to change their identity somewhat. But that's an impressive front line with Amare and Shaq. I wouldn't want to drive that lane.
phoenix is basically trading marion and banks for 6 fouls... run and gun, pick and pop, all this gone with shaq in the mix... hate to tell you phoenix, but shawn marion is the MOST UNDERRATED player you guys will never see again if this goes through... with the long shot comes the long rebound, Marion gave his teammates the peace of mind that they will get the ball back with an offesive board, and who will take his place on the defensive end?... Hill? Diaw?... and Nash's bread and butter is drive and kick to the perimeter... how is he going to avoid hitting that brick wall planted in the paint?... now their also minus another perimeter scorer... horrible
I cannot wait to see Bynum posterize Shaq.. You know it is funny that teams are in a bind trying to even come close to what the Lakers have. Although if you aren't getting better, you are just getting worse. This is a bad move for the SUNS though, they cant play a halfcourt game with or without Shaq.
pdloos, thx. I'm a Lakers fan and as soon as I heard about this trade yesterday, I was hoping, better yet begging for it, for every reason you listed. This trade reminds me of what I said about the Webber deal in Oakland, almost word for word. Why sign this guy to your "run and gun" offense? When he is dry heaving on the defensive end and needs a timeout to get him off the floor, I really don't want to hear all the Warriors/Suns fans complaining about how they knew their team should have never made the deal.
Also, Amare is an average defender and Nash only pretends to even understand the word defense. Now Raja is their only decent defender, because Marion, even though not that great, had has pretty good moments with one-on-one defense, also Raja's best attribute. I bring that up because the Suns were already vulnerable to a pick and roll (the only half court set the Suns actually have so you'd think they see it practice enough to defend it at least some, but nope), and to any team with at least one guy who can move without the ball, two things that Shaq could possibly be the worst in the league at defending, and has been through his whole career, let alone when he can barely move anymore. But now, Phoenix wants to bring him in as a "defensive presence"? Phoenix has zero team D and Shaq doesn't make that any better.
Last edited by mattm5150 on February 6th at 12:03 PM.
I have to admit, the Suns are not quite as arrogant as I thought they were. And I give them credit for realizing that with the Gasol trade (the Shaq thing is clearly a reaction to it) they HAD to do something...But this isn't it. Trading for Shaq while getting rid o####uy built almost perfectly for your team is like the US Olympic Relay Team not having Michael Johnson run the last lap, but Bruce Bruce instead because the other teams MAY have to slow down just a little to go around him. Phoenix did have to do something, but there were 3 weeks until the trade deadline, maybe try not overreacting and waiting for a deal for a guy that fits your team better. The Suns' only chance was to outrun people, now they won't even be able to do that.
As a basketball fan I'm baffled by this deal, as a Laker fan I'm excited about it. And, being objective, I'm not saying that this deal gives the Lakers a Championship, the West is rough, but I am saying however, that it takes one away from the Suns.
Last edited by mattm5150 on February 6th at 12:05 PM.
This MAY give the Suns a half court game but are they going to change their whole game plan? That all depends on D'Antoni. He's an average coach of fundamentals and half court basketball, we'll have to see.
All of those points in bold are dead-on. Your assessments are way off.
This is a good deal for the Suns. This was the BEST they could get for Marion given all of the circumstances. So unless you'd prefer to get nothing in return for him, or get Antoine Walker and Theo Ratliff, yapping about how this was a bad move is pointless.
I'd take 20 playoff games from healthy Shaq over a full season from Shawn Marion any day.
Bynum is a kid who doesn't know his #### from his elbow. Furthermore, he's not coming back at full strength this season. To think the Suns pulled this off because the Lakers got Gasol is ludicrous. Amare alone can devour Gasol.
Marion is an athlete first, and a basketball player second. The money he's going to make on the market is mind-blowing (will be an even worse signing than Rashard Lewis).
Shaq retires in two years. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't matter. By then Nash and Hill will be on the outs too, and the Suns will have money + flexibility to start over.
Getting Shaq increases their potential to win the title. Keyword = potential. If he stays healthy.
It might be a little risky, but I think Marion is messing with the team chemistry so I am for getting rid of him. Also this will give the Suns some respect in the eyes of the refs and Stern which can never hurt,(right San Antonio)
I’m not saying Shaq isn’t a risk, but it is by no means a forgone conclusion that this was a bad move for the Suns.
After all, 40-year old Kareem played fine with L.A.'s Showtime by defending, grabbing the rebound, triggering the Lakers fast break, and then lagging behind it for when the break went to half-court offfense.
Suns are being outrebounded by 6 rebounds a game this season. They can’t run if they can’t get the ball, and can you imagine 6’7” Marion trying to outrebound 7’ Bynum, 7’ Gasol, 6’10 Odom, 6’10 Radmanovic, etc. Uh uh.
--> Shaq doesn't need to be the Shaq of old. Shaq just needs to defend opposing bigs (Bynum, Ming, Duncan), rebound, and trigger the Suns running game.
If Shaq can still do this, the Suns will do well. If Shaq cannot, it just means Diaw gets more minutes and the Suns are pretty much where they were, just not as deep. Kinda.
Train, you are the only person, besides Steve Kerr evidently, on the planet who thinks this is a good idea. What I mean is you are the only person who isn't at the very least saying, why? As a matter of fact, even many Suns fans are hoping this is someone's sick joke...
"Keyword=Potential If he stays healthy." First of all, the Suns' keyword has been POTENTIAL for 5 years. Secondly, and more importantly, except for his first season in Miami, he hasn't played more than 3/4's of a season since 2001, and only 40 games last year. What makes you think that's going to change, since he's already nursing three injuries and hasn't played in a week and a half?
Last edited by mattm5150 on February 6th at 1:45 PM.
1) Rollin - 2 things ... a) You're absolutely right about Marion's contract. But I do think he'll pick up the option on the last year. He'd be crazy not to take an automatic 17mil. Maybe he is that delusional. b) That Atlanta pick won't be that great. They're comfortably in the 7th seed in the east. That's going to be a mid-teens pick most likely.
2) Tom - 3 Things... a) I agree that it will help chemistry. Well, at least in the locker room. On the court, well, that remains to be seen. b) I disagree that Diaw is ready to fill Marion's void. If anything, he's regressed since his "MIP" award and is defensively deficient. c) Shaq will be more motivated, true. But how much more do you think Kobe will be motivated to win his 4th? I think a lot more than Shaq is to win his 5th. But good observations.
BambaBoy - Good reserach. I was going off more what I watched, and Duncan just seemed to play with Amare. The rest of the defense had to react to what Timmy was doing, much like Suns fans are hoping Shaq will do for them.
I was a little concerned that this was a bad trade at first, but I'm starting to think it might be good. All of these people posting why it is terrible must have the Suns best interest at heart right.
Train - A few things... a) Like I said, I get what the Suns are thinking, I just think Shaq is the wrong guy. I think a guy like Camby or Emeka Okafor would have been better. 'Meka's contract expires after this season, he's young and athletic and much better defensively than Shaq. It looks like the Bobcats don't want to extend him. Plus, the 'Cats would have to throw in someone else for salary purposes which would help deepen their already thin bench, which is only thinner now with the addition of Shaq. But who knows? Maybe the Suns tried for it but Shaq was their best option. b) I agree that Amare is better than Gasol. But to deny that the Suns pulled the trigger on this trade as a result of the Gasol trade is, I think, a little dense. c) As for Bynum, the fact that he's still raw only makes his talent scarier. His learning curve is steep, and every game he seems to get better. But you're right. All Lakers fans are praying he comes back full strength, which, even if he does, it could take a while to get into good condition again.
Good observations everyone. Thanks for the comments...
I agree, The Lakers' chances pretty much depend on how Bynum comes back. However, they are 7-5 in the 11 3/4 games since he went out, with those 5 losses being to 5 of the top 7 or 8 teams in ball (Cleveland, Lakers should've won/Dallas, could've won/San Antonio, could've won/Detroit, should've won/and yes the Lakers got blown out by Phoenix). And, all but one of those 7 wins were before Gasol lit it up last night like he'd been playing with those guys all year. And even though he isn't a big name, we're all forgetting that Trevor Ariza is hurt and will be making a return about the same time Drew comes back. Ariza is an excellent defender and an above average BENCH scorer to back up Kobe (and Lamar Odom, since Trevor can play the 2 or 3).
And again, I'm commenting on this not because I think it gives the Lakers a title, the West is to tough to anoint someone the winner this early, or even at all before the Conf. Finals are done. I just think that this trade ruins the title chances for the Suns.
Last edited by mattm5150 on February 6th at 2:54 PM.
They still have Raja Bell to defend Kobe, but now when they face the Spurs who guards Parker and who guards Manu? Last year Bell could take one and Marion the other if they were on the floor at the same time, but now the suns will have to mix in zones or traps. We all have to settle down and the main thing is wait. Shaq will have to get used to this style and it may not come to fruition for some time. The trade was good for basketball though, gets alot of talk, more intrigue for potential match-ups, and will sell more jerseys. Im glad im not a Suns fan though because its gotta be hard to see a worker like Marion leave.
Born and raised in Moorpark, CA - a suburb of Los Angeles - I have been a sports fan since 1994, when, as a 10-year-old boy, I discovered my own aptitude for basketball and soccer, and admired the intensity and skill of Alonzo Mourning. I became a Charlotte Hornets fan, but renounced my allegiance to the franchise when it traded my beloved 'Zo in 1995. I switched my allegiances to my hometown Los Angeles Lakers that same year, and still to this day, take perverse pleasure that the Hornets provided us with two integral pieces to the 2000 Championship squad (Kobe Bryant and Glen Rice). Recently cultivated has been my love for the Los Angeles Dodgers. I have a passing interest in the Los Angeles Kings, UCLA Bruins and Green Bay Packers.
