( interbasket.net ) - With the start of the 2007-08 NBA season upon us, I’m sure David Stern has taken notice of a pattern from this off-season. I’m not talking about perennial Kobe Bryant drama or the KG trade, this involves names that aren’t all household names, but the direction of the moves are making the NBA Commissioner a little more than uneasy.
This 2007 summer has seen a number of players who have either left the NBA for leagues in Europe or have used the European leagues as leverage in their contract negotiations. Every day we come closer to the start of NBA training camps, and NBA heads should pay close attention to several situations that have already past and more importantly, to the outstanding issues that have yet to be resolved.
Vasillis Spanoulis, the little-used Greek guard that was pivotal in defeating Team USA at the 2006 World Championships and a benchwarmer for the Houston Rockets last season, has already decided he would rather return to Panathinaikos of the Greek league rather that ride the bench for another team in Texas - the San Antonio Spurs (the team he was traded to).NBa and the Euroleague
Not that big of news right? I agree. In of itself, it’s another case of Arvydas Macijauskas, a player that will be easily forgotten in the US. Though Macijauskas is a huge star in Europe, he never gained any traction in the NBA as the Lithuanian sharpshooter rode the bench for New Orleans during the 05-06 season. Macas, as he is known, chose to return to Europe after that one season. He chose more playing time rather than earning his time in the NBA. It makes more sense. It’s a matter of what’s best for the player in the short-term. That’s more than likely how Spanoulis will be remembered.
However in early September, Sarunas Jasikevicius, the Lithuanian guard that led his home-country Lithuania qualify for the 2008 Olympics, asked the Golden State Warriors to release or trade him. The Warriors chose the former and waived Jasikevicius.
Since then, the European superstar has returned to the Euroleague and hasn’t missed a step, joining Spanoulis in Panathinaikos backcourt. Again, nothing earth-shattering, but Jasikevicius was one of the many international players that had a reputation in the NBA. If Sarunas had stayed, he could have found a job in the NBA - there are several NBA teams looking for an experienced leader on the floor and a proven winner.
At this point, you may be asking yourself “What are you getting at?”
Add Sasha Pavlovic to the mix. The guard-forward who had a breakout last season with Cleveland cannot come to terms with the Cavs on his contract extension. If the two sides don’t get any closer to signing a contract, Pavlovic and his agent have made it clear that they are ready to do more than just entertain talks with European teams that are interested in the Serbian’s services. As of this post, Pavlovic has missed every one of Cleveland’s preseason games.
Then there’s the case of Andrei Kirilenko, who led Russia to a gold medal at this year’s Eurobasket. The Eurobasket MVP announced through a Russian blog that he is willing to drop the remaining amount of his $63m contract and head back to Europe rather than returning to Salt Lake City to endure another season of Jerry Sloan. The former NBA all-star was explicit and adamant about his position and AK can certainly play anywhere in the world. AK has since been tight-lipped and is participating in Utah’s summer leagues and camp.
If it was only Spanoulis and Jasikevicius leaving, many would simplify the moves as frustrated Europeans unable to make it in the NBA. However, if an up-and-coming player like Pavlovic and former NBA All-Star Kirilenko decides to head home to play, I believe that signifies a trend that would immediately dilute the NBA talent pool and give rise to a competing league.
Just a five-six years ago, no one would believe that an
international player returning home would dilute NBA talent. In fact it
was more likely that they would believe it would actually enhance the
NBA’s talent pool. Back then, it was arguable. Now, however, is a
different era and the same xenophobic attitude will get you laughed out
of serious basketball conversations.
With the influx of international superstars into the NBA (Nowitzki,
Yao Ming, Manu Ginobili, Steve Nash), national teams from around the
world defeating the US in international competitions becoming less
jaw-dropping. And some of the top-European clubs defeating NBA teams in
friendly matches (Maccabi Tel Aviv defeating the Toronto Raptors (2005), FC Barcelona topping the Philadelphia 76ers (2006), and CSKA Moscow defeating the LA Clippers (2006)), there is no doubt that basketball is on more equal footing globally.
And that balance is especially apparent in the European leagues where the development and talent is second only to the NBA.
Though the best outside the USA, European leagues were historically
where older NBA players would see their last playing days out. They
were leagues for players no longer ready for prime-time or players
whose NBA careers never even began. Players that fell under these
categories included the likes of former UCLA-star Tyus Edney, Dominique Wilkins, Bob McAdoo, Toronto Raptor Anthony Parker, Louis Bullock, Scoonie Penn, and Trajan Langdon.
And it wasn’t only because the talent wasn’t strong in Europe, it
was also because the money wasn’t comparable nor as stable in Europe.
With the shrinking dollar against the Euro and the rising popularity of
basketball globally, that barrier isn’t nearly as obvious any longer.
And that is most apparent in the rumor reported by the Detroit Free
Press recently - Chris Webber has been offered a two-year contract by
Greek club Olympiakos for reportedly $10-12m/season. Not chump change
by any standard. If true, it would make Chris Webber the highest-paid
American player in Europe EVER. (Webber has sinced turned the offer
down)
It seems as if the scales may be tipping a little more in favor of
the European leagues. If the aforementioned players leave, it could be
an epiphany for other players (and their agents) like Anderson Varejao from Brazil and other free agents yet to sign for the upcoming season.
And it’s not just the European players; it’s becoming an issue for
even American-born players. Just these last couple months, three NBA
players (including Webber) made waves by utilizing the Euroleagues as
leverage for their NBA negotiations.
Charlie Bell, a former Michigan State player and current Milwaukee
Buck, threatened to sign with Greek team Olympiakos in order to escape
the Bucks. Bell isn’t a superstar, but he did average a respectable
13.5 points, 3 rebs, 3 assts and 1.2 steals last year - some NBA team
definitely could use him. Now, I realize that could have been a ploy by
Bell to get the Bucks to release him from his contract (they didn’t,
they matched the offer sheet by the Miami Heat), but the fact that he
and his agent used Olympiakos as leverage shows that this isn’t your
father’s Euroleague anymore.
There is the case of Dee Brown, the former Illinois-star and
promising, young NBA player decided to leave the Utah Jazz in favor of
Turkish club Galatasaray. Dee Brown, a bench player last season, says
it’s only temporary and hopes to catch on with another NBA club next
year.
Sure Webber declined the offer from Greece, and Kirilenko is in the
same NBA jersey despite his threats, as is Charlie Bell. I also believe
that Pavlovic and Varejao are likely to sign with the Cavs, it’s just a
matter of when. Americans will forget the loss of Spanoulis and
Jasikevicius, but the soft line has been drawn this past off-season.
What was unthinkable 6-7 years ago has become status quo. The next
natural move is for more and more players to not just threaten to leave
the NBA, but to leave the NBA for the leagues in Europe....click here to finish the article
American basketball is far superior to that of any other country's. We're to basketball what Argentina and Brazil are to soccer. This will never change. Some countries will emerge, and some might surprise, but the truth is the United States will always churn out the most talent.
Aside from a handful of guys, most international players in the NBA haven't succeeded -- at least not at a high level. The only reason teams went after foreign talent was because foreign players start playing pro ball at a younger age. They are all fundamentally sound. And starting in 1995, the NBA got ridiculously young and out of control with everyone leaving high school to turn pro. Guys like Darius Miles, who need 6-to-8 years to develop became the standard bench guys. GMs said screw this, instead of waiting around, they went overseas to get guys who knew the game better, and who would hustle.
But the fact of the matter is that American basketball is far superior. Look at the rosters overseas and many, if not most, of the stars are Americans who couldn't make the cut in the NBA out of college. A guy like Anthony Parker was a stud overseas. Look at him in the NBA. He's a nobody.
I agree with what you are saying in terms of America churning out the most talent, but take a look at the entire article- what I am saying is that the NBA will have competition in the market place as the European leagues have not only become more talented, but also have deeper pockets (thanks in part to the declining dollar to the Euro).
I also think you're stuck in an era that still see international players as unsucessful. I don't believe that is the case any longer by any means. International players, esp European ones, are coming over in good number every year. Not everyone makes it, but 2-3 seem to make themselves a name every season. They might not be a superstar a la Nowitzki or Yao, but they're carving a niche or showing great potential (like the breakout seasons that Pavlovic, Barbosa, Nachbar, and Calderon all had last season).
Keep an eye on Scola, Juan Carlos Navarro, and Yi Jianlian this season.
Stuart
Last edited by interbasket on October 30th at 11:16 AM.
I know your point wasn't about who produces the best talent, etc. I'm just throwing that out there because as long as the NBA gets the best players -- which it always will -- the NBA will be the gold standard of pro basketball. People in France, China, Italy, Argentina, etc., will want to watch the NBA.
As for guys returning to their countries to play, that's fine. Look at who we're talking about. Guys who couldn't cut it in the NBA. If these guys, like Sarunas Jaskievicius, could cut it, they'd rather be in the States where the comp is better, and the money is better.
We'd have a problem if the Dirks of the world were saying, "screw this, I'm going back to Germany." But that's not going to happen. The elite foreign talent will always play in the U.S.
The NBA is going around the world showcasing what is the best pro league in the world. They're going to get the fans, and most importantly put in the heads of all little kids, "I want to play in the NBA one day."
Most of the Euro leagues are brutal. They make less pay, travel by bus, deal with violent fans, etc. There's a reason why these players come to the U.S. Luis Scola just signed a 3-year $9-million deal with the Rockets. He gets to travel by jet. He gets the nice hotels.
The chance of a foreign league developing to a point where it competes with the NBA is slim to none. Really. Like I said, the talent will be here. That's the draw.
I could see the NBA creating an NBA Europe league. But eh, why? Why help create a competing market? Unless it's an NBDL-level league that preaches to the players, "play here and you can make it to the real NBA."
NBA has so much power and influence. I just don't see it. Where would this market be? The U.S. is a melting pot, it works here. But in Europe, cultures vary incredibly and there are crazy barriers. We all speak English. What would be the language of this Euro league? Not all Germans speak French or French speak Spanish, etc.
Look at the soccer leagues. Why not build one major league for the top teams? It's just too difficult. I don't see an Italian league competing with the U.S., I see an Italian league competing with a Spanish league, etc. If they could all come together and make one Euro league, yeah, maybe then the NBA would have comp. But I don't see it.
We're going to have to disagree then. That may be the case now, the NBA getting all the best talent, but I think we've seen a harbinger of things to come this past offseason.
Just 2-3 years ago, who would have thought any NBA player would have threatened to leave the NBA for Europe? No one.
And it was completly unheard of 10 years ago, but now, we're sitting in a different era. Just this summer Kirilenko threatened to leave for Europe, Pavlovic is threatening to leave, Charlie Bell threaten to leave, Webber was offered a reported 10-12m/season (while Dee Brown, Saras, and Spanoulis have left). Sure, none of the threats have turned into reality, but it has never even gotten to this stage before.
And what I am trying to say is that we;re moving in that direction. As globalization of this sport continues, the NBA won't be able to stop it's momentum. That's my logic and I am sticking to it.
I understand what you're saying, that this could indeed be the start of something. But come on.
Do you really see black American athletes who can make $15 million a year in the U.S. going to play in Italy for $20 million? No way. Never.
The guys who will leave the U.S. to play overseas will not be guys the NBA will miss.
Talk to me once a good NBA player says, "hey, I'm going to play in Greece," and bolts.
It's not happening anytime soon Stuart. Kirilenko is a ####. He wants to return to his country where he is adored, because in the NBA he is nobody. It's an ego thing.
Pavolivic who? Charlie Bell? LOL. Come on. Spanoulis? Did he ever even get into a game?
The best foreign players are in the States. That should tell you something. They're coming here. We're not going there.
Last edited by TrainOntheBall on October 30th at 12:33 PM.
You keep referring to the present and the past NBA, and only looking at your side, but what about how much the basketball scene has changed in the last 10 years? I'm talking the future here so we can dicuss this all day and night, but really, only time will tell.
Honestly, the basketball scene hasn't changed much in the last 10 years. The NBA scene post-Jordan changed because of the whole youth movement. This whole coming out early party changed the playing field... it lowered it.
It used to be that guys would play four years in college, then get drafted, then take a couple of years to develop. By age 25, guys were coming into their own. After the youth movement of 1995 and on, so many guys entered the league RAW. Instead of getting college grads, we got freshmen who were going to need six or seven years to develop, instead of three or four. We got a lot of "projects." The draft turned into this useless crapshoot of sorts akin to the amateur baseball draft.
That, along with the recent expansion (about four of five extra teams) combined to really dilute the talent pool. Not only was the league super-young and dumb, there were more teams, more money, and the true stars of the game had yet to hit their prime years. Guys like Duncan, KG, etc., were looked at as the best in the league, when they were all only around 26 years old.
Because the NBA got so weak, the door opened for the lesser foreign players. These guys and their work ethic and fundamentals came in right away and made contributions the dumb, young, raw talents couldn't make. The next thing we know there are a bunch of Euros doing well in the NBA, and every #### reporter is saying the "world is catching up."
The world isn't catching up. The U.S. lost in the Olympics because it failed to send its best players. It sent like four or five rookies one year, with a guy like Richard Jefferson getting major minutes. They had two weeks to prep and they didn't take it seriously. Call it arrogance. But we can understand why, when the U.S. Olympic basketball team is like 145-4 in its history, with 3 of the 4 losses coming recently, when the U.S. sent maybe only one or two ALL-NBA players.
You know very well a guy like Dirk Nowitzki -- the best foreign player in the league -- wouldn't be winning MVPs if the league were like it was in 1998. This is thin NBA these days. Anybody can win on any night. Most teams have a handful of borderline NBDL players on their benches. It didn't used to be like this.
The same thing happened to hockey and baseball and football, etc. We expand, we draft based on athleticism instead of skills, money is everything, etc.
In other countries, it's simple. You're either good enough to play or not good enough. I wish it were like that here... I do.
But realistically, if this were ten years back, guys like Bargnani would be benchwarmers, not top five lottery picks. You know this.
Maybe eventually, I can see the best team from Europe playing the NBA Champ for Best Team in the World Honors. I can see globalization in that regard. But just look at soccer... there won't be one universal league...it's impossible.
If you don't believe the world is catching up, then I don't know if it is even worth my time to discuss it with you. That's not an insult, but the basis of my post is based on that fact and if we can't agree on that, then whatever we agree upon is just placing a band-aid on the subject.
I concur with your statement that the NBA draft was diluted by overzealous NBA teams drafting 17 year olds, however drafting international players isn't a fad nor is it entirely based on the lack of seasoned US college players. I am sure it opened the door some for international players, but it's more coincidence.
Internationals were drafted more because NBA teams are recognizing what you don't seem to - international players are getting better and more effective, even in the best league in the world.
Players like Dirk Nowitzki, Yao Ming, Ginobili, Tony Parker, Kirilenko, Stojakovic, Barbosa, Steve Nash, Pau Gasol aren't low-level players that are succeeding because they're muscling scrawny inexperienced teenagers in the paint, they're doing that because the world has closed the gap significantly - they've taken what players like Rik Smits, Arvydas Sabonis, Vlade Divac, Drazen Petrovic have done and have built upon it.
"...drafting international players isn't a fad nor is it entirely based on the lack of seasoned US college players."
This is where we disagree. NBA-ready players stopped coming out of college around 1996 on. From like 1996 on, few players entered the league with four years of college playing experience. What used to be the norm was no more. Now it was the reverse. After several years of teams drafting kids who were so unprepared to make the transition to the pro game, teams turned to the more fundamentally sound foreign talent. And then, of course, with the success of several foreign players, the league realized they were on to something and it started promoting the game globally.
But... had the draft not become a joke, and had NBA-ready players continued to come out of college, the league would not be in the situation it is in now. Why go look for something elsewhere when you already have it in your backyard? The NBA lost its backyard.
If Rik Smits or Arvydas Sabonis were in their primes and playing in TODAY's NBA, they would be superstars.
The only reason why they weren't superstars then is because the league was so much more competitive. The bar has since been dropped so incredibly low. There were real stars in the 80's and 90's. Then it became a marketing act and game show of "who's going to be the next NBA star?"
I mean, a guy like Detlef Shrempf would be a star on a Nowitzki-level if he were playing today. These guys, if better, are only slightly better. It's just that the league is weak. Come on. Jamal Crawford? Luke Walton? 10 years ago, these guys would have been 7th or 8th men off the bench, not 35-minute-per-night players.
You say they caught up... I say we slowed down.
Last edited by TrainOntheBall on October 30th at 10:19 PM.
I know your trying to make the larger point of the world catching up, but as far as the smaller point about Sarunas Jasikevicius...My warrior's are by no means a deep and experienced team after Jackson and Baron, but even compared to our 10th and 11th guys on the bench Sarunas Jasikevicius seemed overmatched last year. Remember this was the team that went over and plucked guys like Sarunas Marciulonis 15-20 years ago with the younger Donn Nelson before it was in style, so despite the opening night loss to the Jazz I applaud the Warriors for dumping him even with his cheap contract (comparatively).
RHenderson- About Sarunas, I believe he is in the same boat as 90% of NBA players, their playing time is based on their situation. Jasikevicius never really fit in with Golden State's running style of play, whereas I think he would be someone that would excel in a half-court offense - plus it's hard to get playing time after Baron Davis and Monta Ellis.
Can't it be both? Though I didn't mention it, the effect of high-school players and college freshmen being drafted year after year will lower the NBA level, but you can't honestly believe the rest of the world hasn't changed the level of play since 1988, 1992, or 1996?
interbasket
It's the belief that the US has become so conceited with regard to perceived basketball superiority. Having had its as$ slapped once or twice it realized that thne rest of the world has caught up with it. They may well have the more athletic players but when it comes to the sheer fundamentals they can no longer say that they're superior to their European counterparts. That's it plain and simple !
Stuart... I'm not saying the world basketball scene hasn't improved some, just that it hasn't improved as much as you or others holding your view believe. First and foremost, the NBA went down the drain.
I'm not a pro-American anti-Europe basher of any sort, but it is what it is. I mean, you said it yourself -- Luis Scola is the best player outside of the NBA, right? Then why did the Spurs trade him away for nothing? Why isn't he starting ahead of Chuck Hayes?
I know it takes time to acclimate oneself to the transition, etc., but still, i####uy is that good, it doesn't matter if he's in New York, Tel Aviv or Zimbabwe. At his best, Scola can put up 15 and 8 -- something like that. But he's not better than, say, Drew Gooden. If Drew Gooden went to Spain and became the focal point of a team, he too could be MVP.
FOUR out of the TOP FIVE scorers in the FIBA Suproleague are no-name Americans. Charles Thomas couldn't make it in the NBA. None of them could.
Only the BEST foreign players can hack it in the NBA, while average U.S. collegians are stars overseas. This is just the truth. Will this change... no. Is England ever going to produce better soccer talents than Brazil? Never. Will there be one or two "special" guys? Yes.
Last edited by TrainOntheBall on October 31st at 5:45 PM.
