So many want to blame NASCAR and Toyota but who really is to blame?
Back in the 1980s the Big 3 and the UAW handed the foreign auto makers the market on a silver platter. Some of the Big 3 started marketing foreign cars with their names on them. Then they allowed their dealers to sell foreign cars from their dealerships.
What a SWEET deal. NO - planning and developement expense, land acquisition and building overhead, hiring sales and maintenance staff (they were already there and trained by the Big 3). And then there is no UAW with the bloated contracts which added thousands to the cost per vehicle. So they didn't start out with a level playing field.
The next BIG 3 blunder was during the first gas shortage (and actually today too) they refused to alter their lineup of products until the competition was already producing smaller fuel efficient vehicles. They insisted on producing their big gas guzzlers where they were making the most profit (SUV's today). Leaving themselves to play catch-up.
They say insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Do we even have to mention quality? They have made great strides in recent years, but why did they wait so long and only after they were getting their a**es kicked?
There really isn't such a thing as a 'American' car anymore. I am not a Toyota lover or owner. The last 3 cars I bought were 'American' (GM), two were built in Canada and one in Mexico. When I go to the dealer to buy genuine GM factory parts they are made in china. And they are importing whole engines to put in “American” cars.
I am not anti-union. I've been a union member for over thirty years and I know that they have gotten fat and complacent. You want to talk about people rolling over in their graves, let the founding fathers of the labor movement see what has happened to them.
The top leaders (executives?) of the unions act like C.E.O.s with all the luxuries and have forgotten where they started and who/what they are working for. They used to go out and orgainize all of the plants and the contracts were almost identical amoung the Big 3 , a level playing field.
Now all they want to do is tell people they are unpatriotic if they buy a 'foreign' car even if it is made here.
Excellent post, dude. The UAW has killed the American auto. They think someone doing an assembly line task---that a trained #### could do---should be making an executive salary. Plenty of American citizens would take those jobs for $15-$20 an hour. But the union wants three times that much.
For all you HMS fans out there....Do you know where Rick Hendrick makes his money? Selling every foreign made car under the sun, including Toyota.
I couldn't agree more. The sellout began in the late 70's when the Japanese carmakers were heavily subsidizing the prices of their cars so they could undercut the BIG 2 and Chrysler. Remember, Chrysler was building the K car in all sizes at this time and had just avoided bankruptcy with a federal bailout. There is no doubt Ford, GM and especially Chrysler were building c*rap, trying not to redesign their cars and yet meeting the CAFE standards which got tighter and tighter. If not for Fleet sales, all 3 would have been in major trouble. The junk yards are full of those cars now...certainly no future classics were being mass-produced. Still, NASCAR could have said no because assembled in America is far different from built in America. It is still a foreign car, not domestic and the profits go to Japan. You can split hairs about this ad infinitum, but NASCAR did choose their course and now everyone wonders how to outspend Toyota, who set out to ruin America's car companies and is succeeding. Plymouth, Oldsmobile are already gone, and soon Pontiac. Like dominoes, watch the rest dropping by the wayside.
BTW- If Honda and Toyota could make cars get nearly 50 mpg in the 80's, how come there are none now that get 40? With all of the technology, the carbureted cars of the 80's should have improved, not gotten worse. With computerized timing, there is no reason they could not build a "FUEL MISER" car again, except that they have abandoned that market for the guzzler SUV's that bring huge profits. Is Toyota and Honda really concerned about it? Nope. It is screw you Amelica. We did win the war they started, right? I'm sure glad we destroyed their industries so they could rebuild even better. I think we should surrender now and let them rebuild ours!!
Thanks for the visit Hanahan ~ I don't totally blame the Union as stated the Big 3 made their share of blunders too and they are still paying for them twenty plus years later.
I fought for this country in the fun and sun capital of south east asia and feel I have earned that right to express my view. I'm getting a little old and one might say opinionated. 8-) So if someone wants to get this vet's dander up just try telling me that I am un-patriotic because I have a differant point of view. Don't even care if they live in D.C.
BN ~ Right you are, they were all asleep at the switch and if it hadn't been for the bailout and Lee I, chrysler would have gone belly up. The others were building c*rap. Look at the fine examples they threw out there to compete besides the K-car, the falcon, vega, corvair, pinto (I actually bought 2 of the afore mentioned models) and they were junk.
You are right, NASCAR could have said no, or could they? Why would they? Toyota is or will be the number one manufacturer in the world.
I will only correct one statement, Pontiac is still alive.
Pontiac is on the chopping block and unless they sell a lot, they'll also be unceremoniously dumped like Oldsmobile, the USA's oldest car maker. they are banking their future on the Solstice and G6.
I think GM should have thrown Buick under the bus before Oldsmobile because of Olds many contributions to automotive history,,,first US car, high compression overhead valves, musclecars... I can't think of a one Buick contributed. Can you?
The Japanese cars use suppliers for their electrical and brake parts, wheels and other "standard" parts, rather than developing their own. Both Ford and GM insist on in-house manufacturing that tends to cost more than competition also.
A-1 post ela. We are the best country in the world. I love the good ole U.S. of A. But look at everything. I am a Cubs fan. Fukudome is the new rookie super star. He is of Asian decent. On my Red, white, and blue Cubs. What is truely 100% American made.
I work for a great company as a machinist. Not union. Its a great company. The parts I make go to others in the states, as well as Mexico and Canada. With out that I wouls not have the Job I do. So yea Nascar didn't hand it to Toyota. The world is changing. We all need other nations to have the life we like. DOn't fight it, enjoy it.
Good post elad..
You may be right H...and the first Doctor's Coupe in the 30's. They were great gangster cars! GMC had a huge V6 before Buick, but it was based on their diesel block and was hugely torquey, but terrible performing...floated valves at 3600 rpm
I belive so Hanahan, I had a 81 buick century w/ a 3.8 V6, GM is still using a variation of that engine today. And don't forget the Regal Grand National supercharged V6, fastest stock production car of it's day. 8-p
....Buick GN that was so limited in production, the FBI had first shots at it. They did win the pole at Indy several times but I do not recall whether they ever won one. Olds and Aurora engines won Indy, and Oldsmobile had at one point, the most pace car appearances.
I guess I'll have to admit that I'm a little prejudiced, have owned 5 buicks, 1 chevy, 1 pontiac and 1 olds. Still fondly remember my dads 54 olds w/ rocket 88 though.
But olds ad guys killed them with those ads ~ "Not your Fathers Oldsmobile anymore" just f-ing brilliant seeing as though the average age of owners was 60 something. Didn't draw in many more younger buyers and turned off their core buyers.
Yep My Dad had a 64 Cutlass, a 65 -98, a 67-98,a 68-442, a 74-88 and a freakin 76 Starfire, and I like them all so much I have owned a 63 Cutlass, a 67 Cutlass, 2 67 442's, a 69 Vista Cruiser, a 76 Cutlass, and an Aurora. My Father's Oldsmobiles were HOT!
Once Olds started using GM and Chevy engines, and went to front drive, they lost the bubble and were doomed to mediocrity. Olds engines were always torquey and very strong running, but could not turn 6000 rpms
finally its good to see some common sense and truth about this whole toyota ####.whats done is done and it is what it is.i am a auto mechanic an avid race fan and participant for over 30 years.im a dodge boy.the best thing that ever happened to chrysler was german intervention.now canadian but what the hell right?sure the abrams tank and the k car saved chrysler back in the day, but the irony is how many more old k cars and vans do you see on the road as opposed to old toyos and datsuns, cause thats what the were called in the day.i own a '93 dakota v6 5spd.with 285000 mi. a 94 caravan with 192000 mi.the quality is there, its been there. no one builds better than the USA.thats why toyos with the least amount of warranty claims are built here.so here here good posts all of you
One more tidbit...it the appearance of better built versus reality. When, as a part of your warranty service, you replace all parts that wear, you can have an appearance of indestructibility. You pay for it during the servicing with $600 tune-ups, instead of waiting for the part to wear out and break. Hmmmm... Toyota and Honda and Nissan as well as Mercedes, Volvo...et all. Even my Suzuki has preventive maintenance and it was built in KOREA!
UMMM I'm a thinking here. The reason the high fuel mileage cars did not survive back in the 80s was no one wanted them . They liked their gas guzzlers so the auto makers built them to meet demand.
Now to the 21st century. The buyers still want the gas guzzlers ( soccer moms with Lincoln Navigators is a joke) . I never see that guzzler filled up with kids. Usually you have the soccer mom driving all by herself all over town shopping. The fuel efficient cars are sitting on the lots unsold.
I have always bought fuel efficient cars for the road since the sixties. Corvairs ( Naders Raders decimated a perfectly good car with their slander)), Novas, Volkswagons, Toyotas, Escorts, Skylarks, Nissans, and Now Kias. Know what. I bought them from American dealerships with American salesmen and service staff. So I didn't feel I was unpatriotic. Just wise
Han ~ NOVA = Nova, Omega, Ventura, Apollo, man the usless crud I have stored in the old gray matter! 8-)
Almost like the COT change the grill and tail lights and viola! a differant make of car.
Good thinking photogr, when the economy is thriving they can't sell the gas mizers. They buy those big 4 wheel drive SUV's that never go off road. The economy cars are selling good right now and for a premium. (they are selling the prius above sticker price) Want a great deal on a big SUV the used car lots are full of them for now. But let the gas price stabilize for a little while and watch them switch back. That economy car just didn't have the room they were used to, even though most of the time like you said there is only 1 person in it. Thanks for the visit
elad64
For all of the innovative talent that's said to rest here in the US . I've seen nothing to bear this out if anything the US now lags behind Europe and Japan when it comes to the use of new technology and in their R& D . And one wonders why there's so much complaining on all sides of the equation ?
Management doesn't know what the hell it is doing ! The unions are no longer representative of its members by any stretch of the imagination. And in many respects they're still unwilling to adapt to real changes that'd make their productivity and working lives better. The atuomotive industry in N America when it comes to the Big Three has become archaic and the laughing stock of the world !
Financially also all three are in such an unhealthy financial state. That it wouldn't surprise that at some time in the future that they'd be looking to the Federal government to bail their as*ses out !
Are they really wortjh driving anymore ?
Oh really there's someone out that loves their Ford.
Oldsmobile Omegas were Nove-like but they did have the better Oldsmobile 350 engine. Also, many of the Trans-Ams with 400s (77-78-79) were big block Olds. My feeling was that GMC should have used Olds instead of Chevy because a Chev 350 got its torgue at over 2500 rpm while and Olds 350 was torguey from the idle. Yes H...The good OLDS days are nothing to sneeze at...when you look at the #### they are all building today!
I've never been a member of a union. But I admire their role in US History and the history of business here and elsewhere - huge. At least up until about 1960 when the wheels started to fall off.
But they've failed to evolve, despite some pretty progressive minds in their ranks over the past two decades. They've missed great opportunities to anticipate many of the changes that have occurred in the market & with the evolution of technology, failing to help train workers to learn the skills necessary to lead the competition, to win the all-out war that is modern international business.
So long as the progressive minds aren't gone for good from their ranks, there's still hope for the U.S. auto industry. But many people think it will take flat out disastrous failure (bankruptcy of the Big 3) to see any meaningful revolution and recovery/rebirth.
I travel a lot. I tend to gravitate towards foreign cars when walking through the rental aisles - they just are better cars by and large. But there are a few that compete: Pontiac G6 convertible, Cadillac CTS, ... um, ... well, maybe the Mustang GT, ...
rfan thanks for the visit. I read once that H Ford once told the UAW that he could make robots to build his cars and I think it was D Frazier UAW pres who said and how many cars will those robots buy? Both have been very resistant to change until it is crammed down their throats by the competition.
GM just announced today that they need to reduce production of trucks and SUVs. Duh, with $4 a gallon gas what was your first clue - maybe the thousands of them you have sitting on the lots that won't sell even with incentives. How far are they behind in offering fuel efficiant cars with 6 speed automatic transmissions. Just kept trying to market the same old stuff and looking for a differant result.
Makes me wonder what Marketing school the geniouses at GM, Ford and Daimler went to. They should lose their accreditation! Mustang was a marketing success as was Taurus, and Daimler has its ridiculous "Hemi" image, but for the most part they are off of the mark and targeting the wrong demographics if they think that people can afford $40K + gas hogs and $4 a gallon. My thought is that most people are leasing and this was the real conspiracy all along, to never own your vehicle but pay for it in perpetuity. The banks are working home loans like this now...and if they have their way, we will be a nation of renters. Any parallels to serfdom?
BN - the solution to that problem is simple. The only people to blame if they've become "serfs" is themselves. Buy what you can afford, nothing more.
... applies to EVERYTHING, and is a discipline going the way of the Dodo. (that is the "Dodo" of extinct bird fame, not the "Dodo" of "gee, I really DESERVE that loaded Ford F-250 but can't afford it, ... well - - I guess I could lease it" fame, aka the "Dufus", the "Ignoramus", the "typical American consumer", etc.).
Dave & BN ~ right you are about serfdom. Nobody wants to wait and save to buy anything with cash. My God they even take out 96 month car loans on those land yachts knowing they will never pay them off. Then they buy gap insurance because they owe more than it is worth.
Who would have thought there would be a market for payday loans. [which they just in effect put out of business here in Ohio by limiting interest to 29%] What are you buying that can't wait till next week and if you don't have it this week will you next week? Food would be my only reason and not even then if I had $.35 for rahmen noodles.
Dave in Indy
elad64
This isn't the only field where the US is losing its edge in competiveness in terms of manufacturing. It's slowly seeing the likes of China , Europe and in some cases countries in the SE Pacific rim catching up if not surpassing it in a mumber of fields. But yet there's still the cry of supremacy. The only real supremacy that the US still maintains is in the field of armourments and the fact that it has the best equipped military in the world. But at the end of the day it does nothing for the well being of its citizenry if their level of economic well being is slowly regressing.
Perhaps someone ought to point that out to the members of Congress and the talking heads who've no idea as to what's happening in the real world !
Whoa! I have to interject something on the Chrysler bashing. First of all, while I agree the big three still aren't the vehicles to be buying, Ford has made a whole lot of blunders and bad vehicles and thats why they are still in trouble.
K-Cars? Yes those were very unreliable however Ford was spitting out some nice lemmons themselves.
They hadn't even recovered from the Pinto yet(Remember the Pinto) That was the only car that had a built in exploding option which was unknown to it's buyers.lol
Then Ford decides to counter Dodges K cars with these nicely built 80's models. The Taurus,Topaz and Sable.lol If you owned one of these beauties, you knew what the meaning of throw away car was.From interior parts just falling off to shocks that would allow you to experience the feeling of the Titanic in heavy seas within the first fifteen thousand miles. Those were some cars!
Lets not forget about the Bridgestone fiasco.I will admit, that was a nice try by Ford to blame their Exploders(I mean Explorers) rolling over when a tire blows all on Bridgestone. I'm sure that renewed everyones faith in the company.
While the Big three have all had their success and failures, “the ridiculous hemi image” isn’t one of the failures. Lol That campaign, the viper, the 300’s are some of the things that have kept Chrysler floating. Don’t forget who introduced the mini van and dominated that market forever. There are always some exceptions to the rule.
I guess my point is that except for my 71 Roadrunner, I too have a Lexus and Mitsubishi vehicle.
Last edited by sixfigurefan2 on June 3rd at 12:20 PM.
That is in part because of the lack of reliability I have experienced with the big three. If things don’t drastically change, they will all eventually go bye, bye.
sixfigurefan2- I agree, those who cannot or will not change are doomed to go the way of Packard, Kaiser, Pierce-Arrow, Dusenberg, Studebaker and on and on.
I have never bought into the Mystique of the Hemi, as Daimler would have all uninformed people do. The 426 was no better than the other big blocks of the era. By most people's way of thinking, the 440 or 383 were preferable, except at auction, because the 426 in production cars was so rare ... as most were slated for tracks and strips. It is simply a head design, no more efficient or better than anyone elses. Most Jap cars are Hemis too. Effective marketing certainly does not mean honest marketing, now does it? USA small cars were decades behind Europe and Japan, and only through collaborations have they caught up. But, is a Chevy (Toyota, Suzuki, Dae Woo), Pontiac (Toyota), Saturn (Honda), Ford (Mazda), Dodge (Mitsubishi)really considered a domestic car? I am confuzzed.
Some of those Ohio buy here pay here dealers got pretty rich off that deal. I think charging 29% is a fair amt. but over 50% was a bit taking advantage of the less financially stable people.
The other problem was they were selling cars less than safe or reliable for the road and not providing some functional warranty thus the buyers were stuck with a lemon.
What ever happened to 36 month financing and 20% down with 150.00 monthly payments? Oh I remember now. The cost of the cars almost exceeded the gross national debt. What you could buy for $12,000.00 in 1988 now cost $30,000.00 plus in 2008.
Of course in 1964, a weekly salary of $100.00 a week was considered good. Today if you don't make at least $600.00 a week, you are considered poverty stricken.
While I agree with statements that the UAW caused much of these problems early on (and you can always tell the far right Republicans because they never see anyone at fault except unions and liberals) the truth is that since NAFTA came along we learned in our economics classes that the American Auto maker cut his overhead in half by moving to Mexico and Canada. Now I ask you all. When is the last time they dropped the price by 25% and just took the other 25% in additional profits they made by exploiting non union workers?
NEVER.
Corporate greed is why the USA automakers are dying. But hey, Like BN said on his blog, why should those old fat cats care. They got theirs. Only the workers will suffer for it.
Does anyone know why Chrysler left stock car racing and didn't come back until recently?lol It was because of this "Hemi" and the domination it had in stock car racing.
Now before I go on, I'm going to apologize in advance to anyone who gets offended by this. I enjoy blogging with everybody and respect everyones opinions.
Of course the Hemi is about the heads, however, chrysler perfected that design and it made more POWER and TORQUE than the competition could handle. Please guys do your homework before slamming this engines history. Chrysler rated the horsepower on the 426 Hemi at 425 Horsepower.lol The 426 Hemi actually made about 465 horsepower and this engine instantly started dominating at the dragstrip.
Chrysler broke out the Dodge Daytona and the Plymouth Superbird and these vehicles DOMINATED everything at the track. Look it up guys trust me on this. Well the other auto makers started complaining and the Superbird and the Daytona were banned from the track.Chrysler although not happy about this went on racing the Hemi in the Plymouth Roadrunner and guess what happened. Richard Petty and a few other drivers were againing dominating at the track again.
Once again there were complaints about Chrysler having an unfair advantage and again action was taken against Chrysler. This time they banned the Hemi and Chrysler said that was the last straw and quit stock car racing. True story folks please check your facts.
On of the most sought after cars at car auctions are any of the original Hemi Darts that were built by Chrysler for RACERS only......or unless they
vouched for you and you were lucky. These cars fetch about a million bucks at auction. The Hemi Dart was the fastest car you could buy off the showroom floor. It came with no transmission and you actually had to sign a waiver that didn't hold mother MOPAR accountable if you killed yourself in the thing.lol It was capable of 9 second quarter miles.
The Hemi's today are NOTHING like the 426 Elephant. It most recently was a 360 with a hemispherical head and not even close to the torque of the original beast.Again guys, at the time the original 426 Hemi had no equal.I invite anyone to look up I beleive 1969 through 1971 in stock car racing and look at the results.The Hemi and Chryslers insane looking winged cars were banned for winning to many races.
Last edited by sixfigurefan2 on June 3rd at 9:47 PM.
I agree, the loan shark industry has not been the friend of the consumer. I recall having to go to a bank or credit union, applying for a loan, and sometimes even they said no. There were debt ratios you had to stay within. Now, they shoe horn you into a car you cannot afford and because you might be a credit risk (duh!) they charge double the interest rate or more. D-i-I is right, it is the impulse control that seems to be out of whack. When a vehicle becomes an extension of your personality, instead of basic transportation, the industry targets weak-minded people into mortgaging their future. Unfortunately, a good percentage of those people fail, and who pays for it? Not the banks! Rather than putting millions of people out of jobs because of their debts, we should be putting the payday loan people and credit card companies out of business. Our economy might get healthy soon if we could spend within our means, and the federal government spent within its means....a novel concept ...radical I know...but I am ready for the onslaught!
There's much for the US auto industry to learn. Like making reliable and fuel efficient automobiles. Instead of complaining as to the advantages that their competitors have. Had they not been so myopic then they wouldn't have found themselves in such a predicament.
Innovation and their so called ingenuity is no longer a part of their core ideals. They've got this build it big mentality thinking that's what the consumers want.
They're now having to play catch up with the foreign competitors. And we wonder why the industry is in such a mess ?
Saturn is about the only branch of the Big Three that can claim success. They studied the Asians, they built a state-of-the-art plant and hired non-union workers outside of the mainstream of Detroit. They build high quality cars at more affordable prices and they share very few components with the other GM marques. They can go head to head with Honda and Toyota.
I am a male who is a life long Ohio State football fan. (GO BUCKS) and a NASCAR fan. I like the Cleveland Browns so I know the agony of defeat but they are still my boys. A huge JGR fan going back to Bobby Labonte - 18 Interstate Batteries, Tony Stewart - 20 Home Depot, Denny Hamlin - 11 FedEx and now Kyle Bush - 18 M&Ms.
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I am getting older and I guess more opinionated too. But I am always willing to listen to others ideas and hear other opinions. Promise I will not personally attack, berate or hate because of differing opinions even if you are wrong. 8-) We can always agree to disagree without making it personal.
