As one of the few bloggers to have actually seen Wilt Chamberlain play during his prime years when he set all the records I am here to tell you I am sick to death of stat hounds and moronic idiots who see highlight film games and worship at the Altar of The Wilt Chamberlain big lie.
First off under the rules of today Wilt Chamberlain would foul out of every single game he played in. With the exception of the games in which he would be ejected for unsportmanlike play and flagrant fouls.
I don't even know where to start with this, I am so fed up with the #### sucking up to Chamberlain.
Let me say this and then try to break it down for you.
WILT CHAMBERLAIN WAS THE DIRTIEST PLAYER IN THE HISTORY OF THE NBA.
1.) He was allowed to block shots by hitting people not just on the head but damn near just ball up his fist and cold #### people. I would assume that not only Shaq but almost every good center in between could block shots like Wilt if they were allowed to do this. How many times do we hear "the block was clean but he got him with the hip/body below the shoulder. ####. Wilt got people with his shoulder, his body, his arms, his legs and seldom called for fouls. Wilts idea of defense was "I'm bigger than you, nastier than you and I'm gonna mug your #### and nobody is gonna say #### about it". And he was right.
2.) Wilt rebounded by simply going up, and again, no "over the top" in those days. He was simply taller than anyone else and once he got his hands on the ball he started swinging razor sharp elbows. Deke Mutumbo has been called hundreds of times for his elbows and he does nothing compared to what Wilt did. And Chamberlain didn't just clear out. He put people on the floor. People bleeding. Again he intentionally tried to hurt people. That was his personality. Anyone big man today allowed to do what he did could average 20 rebounds a game.
3.) He used his elbows on offense as well. Imagine I were 5-7 inches taller than you and 50-100 lbs heavier than you and back in on you on the post and suddenly and intentionally ripped my arm around and drove my elbow into your face. You'd go down and if you didn't you'd backpedal out of bounds and be temporaily blinded. Then he'd just dunk or if he was being double teamed he'd simply then back into the other defender and hand the ball off to a teammate strolling unguarded into the lane. This is why he got double digit assists in his glory years. Never has anyone ever gotten credit for so many cheap assists.
4.) As for his scoring what a joke. He took balls off the rim, he intercepted fellow players shots, all for dunks. For you stat hounds compare this one.
Chamberlain 48 minutes 36 of 63 field goals, 28 of 32 free throws.(that season Chamberlain was allowed to leap from the free throw line and dunk free throws.The rule ws changed the following season and he quickly became one of the worst free throwers in history)
Kobe Bryant 42 minutes 28 of 46 field goals, 18 of 20 free throws.
In 6 minutes less bryant took 17 shots less and 12 free throws less than Chamberlain and finished 19 points less. Based on %'s had Bryant shot as much and had as many FT's as Wilt, Bryant would have scored about 115 pts. And Wilt was never double teamed without the ball, played with a foot narrower lane and all the aforementioned other advantages.
The facts are that Wilt Chamberlain won one championship during his prime years with all the possible advantages that he could have. He was selfish far beyond any other player in NBA history, he was Arrogant beyond any other player in NBA history and if he played to day with the same rules that everyone has to play with today he'd be nothing more than a larger version of Danny Fortsen with the same ejections and fouls.
You can hate on me till the cows come home but the reality is Wilt Chamberlain is the most overrated player in the History of the NBA. And I was there to see it. Were you?
Dusty, man, I am so surprised by what you have written. It sounds like you don't like this man - In your bio, you write. Quote: “I think hating on a team or player simply because you don't like them is immature and juvenile.” Your article is a total contradiction to that statement. I never saw Wilt play the game and you say you have; but I have never heard anyone say what you have said about him – again, a bit surprising!
here's the deal. Wilt had his glory years when there was no teams east of the mississippi river and travel was limited. He was legendary for being worse than T.O., Shockley, MJ, Iverson and Kobe combined for the way he treated teammates and/or refused to practice/treated refs and on and on and on.
Because he put up numbers at a time when the NBA wasn't really considered a major sport and they had something there to promote and the "legend" grew and grew because it was manipulated for promotional value despite the fact that Shaq and Hakeem and even 80% of the later centers could have put up Wilt type numbers under the rules Wilt played under until I am sick to death of hearing about Wilt. He would have not done as well as Shaq under the same rules as Shaq played his prime in and I don't even like Shaq. Never have.
Yes I said that on my blog and I also said if you can bring the truth then it's desirable. This article is not contradictary at all. I'm not just hating. This is the truth about Wilt Chamberlain.
Last edited by dustylaker on December 9th at 12:53 PM.
There in lies the art of the eras, dusty. You, others, and I can talk about yester year all day long comparing players from all the major sports - talking about what they could have done under certain conditions of rules and the like. And in the end we really don't know and we never will; because it will never happen. The only way we will come close to some resemblance of our rants is through computer simulation of stats and player attributes. But that's simulation. So what am I saying? I am saying by all historical and statistical accounts, Wilt Chamberlin was said to be a great basketball player and I have seen nor read anything to contradict that. Keep charging, bro!
Last edited by broblog on December 10th at 6:27 AM.
Couple of things. First, I wasn't alive when Wilt was playing so i try to stay away from having an opinion on him, or anyone else from before I started watching the game. I don't understand why people think they have to have an opinion on everything, just based on highlight clips.
With that being said, I respect your opinion especially since you use a lot of specific information. When I read the thread title I thought you'd go into lame "couldn't win the big one" or "played against bad competition" arguments, but you actually included a lot of specific things that he did which are not that impressive.
I just wish you had made the argument with a little less passion, because as solid as your argument is, it's hard for me to know if you're exaggerating or not because of how passionate it is.
Bro when I say Wilt is the single most overrated player of all time that is based on the simple fact that many want to claim he was the best of all time. Arguements boil down to either Wilt or MJ. If someone is claimed to be a hall of famer but I feel was overrated as many were, then they are simply overrated. But if you claim they are the best of all time and I feel they were overrated then by defination they must be the most overrated of all time.
Maeto that's who I am. I spend my life as a wide receiver (probably the most animated of all football players), as a musician, songwriter, screenplay writer etc... I'm an emotional person and I don't deny that. But then again I am not being paid to write my thoughts so therefore I'n not under obligation to curb my emotion. Not that I would anyhow, but what I'm trying to say this is just how I write. It's what it is and I stand by what I saw with Wilt. Furthermore, he played in a time when double teaming him off the ball was not allowed as was routinelly done with Shaq and Kobe and others since the rule was changed. He played in a time when there was virtually no such thing as a 3 second in the lane offensive call made and if it was it certainly wasn't going to be called on Wilt. He also played when the average powerforward who did double team him was around 6'5"-6'6" and finally he played when there was no such thing as a defensive 3 second in the lane during his "glory years"
Last edited by dustylaker on December 9th at 1:46 PM.
And my final statement here on Wilt to you Mateo is that "stat hounds" love to use stat lines to "prove their points" over and over again. The problem with that is that once again the difference in rule, travel, number of teams, competition and on and on.
It stats were the definitive answer then Bruce Bowen would be in the CBA. Intangibles make up for much of the game in my opinion.
Like I always say, it's impossible to compare players from different eras. There are just too many variables. All you can do is look at how they stack up against their contemporaries, and Wilt was so far ahead of everyone else that you can't help but admit his greatness. Others who fall into this category; Wayne Gretzky, Babe Ruth, Jim Brown. Like Wilt, they didn't just break or set records, they destroyed them.
I don't necessarily agree with you on Chamberlain, but I certainly respect your opinion and the emotion with which you present it.
It's a good point about "stat hounds" - I love numbers as much as the next guy, but it's also important to realize that they don't always tell the whole story. There is a certain subjective element involved when judging any player - Bill Russell's overall numbers don't look exceedingly impressive (in particular the offensive ones - his defense still holds up), but his legacy is enhanced by the fact that he was a winner.
Question: where can I find info on the "dunking from the free throw line" rule? There was a brief mention in Wilt's Wikipedia entry, but I can't find evidence anywhere else.
dusty, I'd love to see you do a ranking of your all-time favorite/best NBA players by position. I think everyone who follows the sport and its history has an opinion on the matter, but you're probably the most passionate and one of the most knowledgeable fans I've come across.
Just finished reading the John Feinstein book about Red Auerbach and there was a great Chamberlain-Russell story in there.
Apparently Auerbach knew he could rattle Chamberlain and used to get on him all the time. One day, Wilt had had enough and made a move to go after Auerbach (who he would have killed). Russell (who was a good five inches and fifty pounds smaller than Wilt) stepped in between and told Chamberlain, "You want him, you're gonna have to go through me first." Chamberlain said something like, "I could kill you." Russell answered, "Doesn't matter - you want to have at Red, youre gonna have to get through me first."
Wilt backed down.
Says a lot about the dynamic that existed between Chamberlain and Russell and the type of man that each one was.
of course I have no way of knowing who the Sixers are talking with nor what they can reasonably get for him but just to take a wild guess I would say he will end up in the West and likely with either T-Wolves (who probably would give up the most trying to get KG not to opt out of his contract) or Denver who has a number of players to offer plus the natural number one that is going down in this deal.
Ya know bmoy I'm just not a research stat freak. Like everyone else if it serves my purpose for a given game or whatever I'll throw up a stat that is all over every sports page that day but in the case of wilt dunking from the free throw line I would suggest you check with "NBA rule changes" on google or something. I don't even know for absolute certain it was after the year he avg's 50 and had the 100pt game but if memory serves it was. But I do know I saw him do it on the game of the week on TV.
Last edited by dustylaker on December 9th at 5:05 PM.
Rick I have a lot of respect for Jim Brown's accomplishement. He played in an era where there was very little sports medicine compared to today and in a game where every hit was during cold weather for the most part and on ice covered fields and so on. What a strong body he had.
As for Gretzky I'm willing to concede his talent but since Hockey has always allowed up to two assists on a single goal I don't think his "point" totals are as impressive as some others might be. Gordie Howe SCORED. Maurice Richard SCORED. Brett Hull SCORED. I've never been a particular fan of those who declares someone a superstar without equal based on "assists". Steve Nash is the best PG in the NBA but he does more than assist.
Pitchers in Babe Ruth's day routinelly were expected to pitch 9 innings in every start and made some 40-45 starts every year. I'm a little dubious of the Babe's accomplishments as well.
I guess my point is this regarding Ruth (and others I mentioned). If the pitching was suspect in Ruth's era, why weren't others hitting that many home runs? I don't remember the exact number, but the home run record for a season was around 20 before Ruth came along. In other words, he did something no one else could even come close to. Same with Gretzky.
Once again Rick with the rules being the same for Babe or Wilt or whoever the my point is not that they didn't dominate their time because obviously they did. But you take into consideration the relief pitching of today, the speed and athleticism of the people today Babe Ruth in my view couldn't get his fat #### into a starting lineup today. And Wilt would be thrown out of every single game and if he wasn't he would foul out with today's rules. THAT and that alone is my point and I can't respect someone like Wilt who was allowed to do what he did and nobody today is.
To me, Wilts records are about the same as if I had pole valuted 16 feet with a flexible fiberglass poll and then they told everyone else "you can pole vault but you have to use the rigid, no spring metal poles" and then they said I was the record holder. Records were made to broken. And when you handicap players as badly as NBA players are handicapped today I honestly believe there have been a dozens of others that under the same rules as Wilt could have scored not only 100 pts but would have done it more than once.
Last edited by dustylaker on December 9th at 7:13 PM.
dusty - from what I could find, Chamberlain never dunked a free throw in an NBA game - not legally, anyway. There were two stories about it around the Net, however - one that he was considering doing it in college, someone found out about it and got the rules changed in advance, the other that he did it while playing on the freshman team at Kansas, which caused the rule to be changed.
I'm of the belief that part of being considered "the best ever" is being in the right place at the right time. Babe Ruth is considered the best baseball player ever because he came along around the time of the Black Sox scandal, when the game needed a larger than life figure. Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan are considered three of the best because they came along at a time when the NBA was struggling and helped breathe life back into it. Wilt is considered one of the best two or three players ever because he played in the right place at the right time.
Mateo, did you see Babe Ruth play back in the day? No, you did not; but I bet based on stats, you think that he was a great player. Stats and tapes are all a lot of us have to determine greatness sometimes of players from the past. All I was saying is that I have heard no one say the things that dusty is saying in his article about Wilt - and based on the historical statistics, Wilt was considered to be a great player in his time.
Last edited by broblog on December 9th at 11:32 PM.
Even so gentlemen, another point being made here by all of us collectively is that while we four or five are discussing the liklihoods and merits of this absolutely noone else seems to care. So what is that point? We live in a disposable throwaway society. The Vast Majority has now decided MJ was the greatest to have ever played and twenty years from now no doubt the majority will have decided that another player is/was and so it will go throughout this rapidly detoriating "instant gratification" society of ours until one day "the greatest to ever play" will probably change week to week if not day to day. LOL
Wilt played under the rules of his era, just like Johnny Unitas and Otto Graham did.
A lof ot folks could spend a lot of time making the comparison of what those guys would do under today's NFL rules, and trying to degrade the accomplishments of those after them, but it's a waste.
I simply don't understand someone working so hard to lessen the leagcy of the departed. It's mean spirited and meaningless.
I saw Chamberlain, but mainly at the end of his career. When he started he was destroying 6'9" centers, but by the time he finished he was holding his own against guys like Jabbar. Thurmond, Reed, and Lanier.
Chamberlain was strong, not so much as O'Neal but very strong compared to the average center. He wasn't much of s shooter, but he had the normal range of post moves plus a finger roll that took advantage of his arm span.
As for making contact in the post, it was a much different game then. If you're going to downgrade Chamberlain's accomplishments for that style of play you also have to do the same for Reed, Thurmond, Beatty, Lanier, and Unseld. I'd love to be able to see O'Neal against Nate Thurmond in his prime. Thurmond's forearm would be permanently imbedded in O'Neal's spine if he didn't get out of the lane.
As for Chamberlain versus O'Neal, I think it would be a fairly even matchup. Chamberlain was way more athletic and would have knocked some of his shots back (which you rarely see in today's NBA). But O'Neal would have made Chamberlain work for his boards. And I think Chamberlain would have scored on O'Neal just because O'Neal doesn't move well and he would have gotten O'Neal in foul trouble. Heck, they both would probably have fouled out.
I don't think much of today's post players. I think Artis Gilmore would have sent Yao Ming back to China on the next flight. Mel Daniels would eat the lunch of half the guys in the league. Heck, he'd actually take their lunch first, then eat it. It's just a different game and very hard to compare to
Wilt was garbage. i get tired of old fogeys slappin me to the ground with their stories of the good old days. that was when the sky hook was a great shot and not something tossed up by fat white kids at PE. that was when magic johnson could carry the ball all the way down the court, turning the ball over like so many hamburgers. that was when a cross over was killer. word to the fogeys: my 5th graders have mastered the killer crossover, they can change direction without carrying the ball over, and no one bothers with the sky hook because it makes you look like you have no basketball skill at all. enough already!
i've only seen one player that could have succeeded in any basketball era to date and that was Michael Jordan. well, i'd toss in Charles Barkley. he worked harder to win than any other player. he couldnt jump like Jordan. he couldntg shoot like bird... but he busted his ####. i'd give him my vote based on sheer intensity.
This was a really good post. I enjoyed reading it. I have also witnessed the change in the ways the game is called over the years. There was a price to pay if you wanted to get an offensive rebound in the NBA and Wilt made sure you paid that price.
Bill Russell was one of the only center's that was able to compete with Chamberlain and that was only due to his athleticism and his ability to take a beating from Wilt. That frustrated Chamberlain to no end. Could you imagine the likes of Dirk NO-witczky trying to get rebounding position on Wilt?
Chamberlain might average 26 points a game in today's game...but would foul out of half the games he played in. Shaq might have the flu on nights matched up against Wilt.
Demonic - I'd throw in a few others that could survive in any basketball era. Magic Johnson, Pete Maravich, Larry Bird, Oscar Robertson, Joe Dumars...and OF COURSE...Spud Webb.
Demonic - the beauty about Magic was that he could play 1 through 5 as he proved when Kareem went down in game seven of the Finals. All he did was score 26, pull down 11 rebounds and still managed 6 assists from the 5. Versatility and an unbelievable knowledge for the game. Unfortunately, he didn't have the same talk show host abilities. When it came to talking to people on live television...he was a train wreck.
Rooster - I didn't say that Magic was the "Best" center of all time. I simply said that he could play all 5 positions on the court and hold his own. He was an annomoly at 6'8" and the ability to dribble, shoot, pass, score and make the most marginal players look like gods.
Could Champerlain play in todays game? Sure, he could. The guy was 7'1" and 275. The point was that Wilt got away with a lot that would not be acceptable today. He was as 50% from the free throw line and played against centers that averaged 6'9" to 6'10". Hell, his biggest threat was Bill Russell who was 4 inches shorter and 60 lbs lighter...but Russell gave Chamberlain fits.
Today's NBA is full of 7 footers that could lay 270 lbs on Wilt. He would be a good player today...not a GREAT player.
dusty...Chamberlain was fairly easy to figure out after he came out with his "20,000" women claim. Heck it may even be true. But why would you talk about something like that, if you didn't have an enormous ego....which there is NO ONE who had a bigger ego. This is an interesting blog...and I commend you for going out on a limb with it.
FP..I would also throw in John Stockton with that group of players who could play in any era. He played with reckless abandon on every single possession..whether on offense or defense. And he may have been one of the smartest point guards ever. Just a thought.
Nice personal perspective, dusty. Of course, I wasn't around to see Wilt play. All I have are well-orchestrated clips showing the finer elements of his game. And even those don't paint a clear enough picture for me to take you to task here. Not that I would anyway.
Thanks for the visual. It was clear and concise.
So where would you rate Wilt among all the so-called great centers in the game?
First on Wilt: What would be the assessment on Bill Russell, seeing that he had a ton of respect for Wilt's game, or at least according to books or TV shows I have read or seen stating that.
Quick point on Gretzky: Best set-up men ever in hockey, the majority of his assists were coming from his stick and not from his stick to some dude who sets up another. Plus, who is the leading goal scorer of all-time? That would be Wayne, who also scored when he had to.
Ranting non sense. How many of the 30 NBA centers can average 20 points per game? He played against some of the all time great centers, Kareem Abdul Jabbar 7-2, Nate Thurmond 6-11, Bob Lanier 6-11, Bill Russell 6-9, Walt Bellamy 6-11, Walter Dukes 7-0, Willis Reed 6-10. He played against the best players much more often than nowadays. Ben Wallace is the Defensive Player of the decade and he's 6-9, 240 lbs. Being 7 feet doesn't mean too much when you're not good at what you do. The only reason there are more 7 foot players is because there are more teams. Expansion has dilluted the league to a barely watchable product. By the way, I'm 28 years old and I'm not impressed with the so called "modern era". The rules are more advantageous for offensive players.
Some of you youngsters ought go hit the films before making any bigger fools of yurselvz. It is the New Era players - since the early 70's - who would be pulverized in the 60's-early 70's old school game. If these players since then are so hot why can't they go out and beat Spain or Greece? Hello? Try getting in the record books after you're done with the films watching real basketball players, and see how many gold medals our COLLEGE PLAYERS we sent to the Olympics before the mid-70's won. [Keeping in mind that our college boys won the gold at Munich in '72 even though it was officially given to Russia - I don't even have to explain to anyone who actually saw the debacle].
Last edited by jesus2 on December 11th at 12:35 PM.
I am 45 years old and I remember Wilt going against Kareem for the first time in the late sixties and what I remember is all the old men talking about how Wilt was going to break Lew Al Cindor's arm if Al Cindor attempted to block Wilt's dunks. I have memories of Wilt's games with the Lakers and Wilt's volley ball games. Maybe you do have a point that Wilt was an ####. But what does that have to do with today's game. Rules have been changed for specific players or for the good of the game my entire life of watching basketball. Wilt was a beast in his time like Shaq used to beast in his prime. I actually loved the article because it made me think about those games on cbs back in the day.
and that's just my point ice. Yeah Wilt was THE beast for his time. But I maintain that Hakeem, Alcindor, Shaq, probably Mose Malone and possibly others would have done just as well had they of played with the advantages that Wilt had. Wanna take a wild shot at how many people would have died from head/brain damage had Shaq of been allowed to just windmill those monster arms of his in his prime, elbows out?
Last edited by dustylaker on December 28th at 12:12 AM.
Hi, I'm new here and probably won't comment much, but I certainly ain't new to hoops or its history.
Based upon what I have read and seen, I have to consider Dennis Rodman as the greatest rebounder we have seen, just eeking out Bill Russell. I would like to know how you would rate Wilt in comparison to Rodman purely for rebounding. It would seem according to your testimony that he collected a lot of rebounds in a dirty way of playing.
There are few things in life that I would rather do than watch the NBA....welll Ok I'd rather have a night with Shakira and Beyonce but other than that.....well ya know a night with Angelina Joli and Jessica Alba wouldn't be something you'd have to beg me to do either.....I might be convinced for a night with Halle Berry and Britney come to think of it but outside of that the NBA is my.........I don't see how I could turn down Jewel and Mariah Carey, that'd be insane....whe re was I?..........C harlize Theron and JLo sure wouldn't have to ask me twice I can tell you that much right now...but when it comes to the NBA I'm almost impossible to get away from the game....altho ugh.....Jessi ca Simpson and Selma Hayek would be something wouldn't it?
