Dave Says IndyCar is BetaMax.  I'll Stick to Racing in HDTV.

When you look at Dave's post and my post, what's interesting is that we don't disagree on more than just a couple of facts. 

We both agree that IndyCars are faster and that NASCAR is more popular.

Neither of us disputed that NASCAR was more of a contact sport and that IndyCar provides the more dangerous and spectacular wrecks.

Where We Disagree

Dave sites the danger as an advantage to IndyCar.  I'd argue that the tremendous strides NASCAR has made since Dale Earnhardt, Sr.'s death in the area of safety are more important than spectacular wrecks.   I'd just as soon avoid watching the race with my four year old and seeing something like that happen to his favorite driver or any other driver.

 Probably the biggest thing we disagree on is which series has the tightest racing.

Sure, two open wheel cars touch and there's a good chance somebody is on their back.  Close racing has that added element of excitement to it.

But places where the IndyCars are running car a two to four car lengths apart, NASCAR will be running a few feet apart.  Sometimes mere inches.  That's when they aren't someplace where bump drafting will work. 

That's to say nothing of the action that goes on side by side.

IndyCar drivers demonstrate an incredible technical skill and amazing precision.  I understand  where Dave and other IndyCar fans are coming from when they see the beauty in that.

The NASCAR drivers have great skill and show quite a bit of precision, but what overpowers that is a demonstration of raw, full contact aggression.  The sheet metal on sheet metal fights for every single spot.  To me, that's what I love to see.

How Wide Open?

Dave raised a point about how cookie cutter the cars are in NASCAR.  Quite a few NASCAR fans bemoan turning NASCAR into IROC with everyone having exactly identical equipment.

Clearly, NASCAR does have a tradition and heritage of innovation.  At the same time, there needs to be some parity and cost control there somewhere. 

Is NASCAR going too far with the COT?  Maybe they are.  On the other hand, the arms race in spending and technology was one of the big issues that caused the IndyCar series to split.  The cost and development of IndyCar equipment is a challenge when you are looking at making that series financially stable.

 It's All About Preferences

Dave argues that IndyCar is the better product and compares it to BetaMax.

My argument is that there is a reason why NASCAR is shown in High Definition 38 times a year.  There's a reason why it has become (by most objective measures) the number two sport in the country.

The marketplace has spoken.  That's way different from a dubious process of voting in presidential elections or American Idol like Dave cited.  Americans have voted for NASCAR with their wallets.

My own view is that IndyCar races aren't as exciting because they lack the lead changes and on track passing that NASCAR has.

But when it's all said and done, it's all a matter of personal taste.  Is it the controlled technical racing (what the heck happened to Juan Pablo "Crash" Montoya when he moved to stock cars anyway?) of IndyCar or the full contact of NASCAR.

There is room for both and I hope those running IndyCar are willing to do what they need to do to bring that series back to where it once was.




 

NASCAR is Exciting Racing While IndyCar Just Can't Pass.

Just one number: 25,122.

Dave in Indy, you ignorant ####. That one number is all I need to win this entire argument.

That one number is what proves that NASCAR is exciting racing, not as you say, "the pack circling and circling" until the final three to five laps.

But we'll get back to that magic number later.

As I've said before Dave, the first race I ever attended was the 1986 Indy 500. IndyCar was my first love in motorsports. I don't dislike IndyCar. In fact, I even cheated on NASCAR and went to the IRL race in Richmond. Oh no, I think that makes me the ignorant ####.

It's just that IndyCar is a disappointment. The caretakers of the sport have let it fall on hard times a bit.

There are some things about IndyCar where I've got to give them their props.

More than anything, you guys have the coolest looking cars and they go super fast. Okay, they sound like my leaf blower now instead of a fully loaded F-15 like they used to. But they look like race cars.

The caution lights on the race cars is an excellent move and piece of safety equipment.

The most important piece of safety equipment IndyCar has is the traveling safety crew. Those guys are outstanding. NASCAR should listen to Jeff Burton on this one and follow IRL's example instead of relying on uneven local talent..

Also, when there is a wreck in IRL, it usually looks far more spectacular.

On top of that, it's great that women can get a ride in the top IndyCar series while for women in NASCAR even blowing your boss isn't even enough to keep you in a Craftsman ride.

That said, there are so many ways NASCAR is better than IndyCar today. The milk has soured and the bricks taste sweet.

NASCAR has better racing, stronger tradition, bigger field sizes, more fan and sponsor support, is completely unified and simply more exciting. Then there is the entire issue of TV.

IndyCar has road races, a crumbling history, shrinking fields, small purses, weak fan and sponsor support, is a sport divided and a TV disaster.

Let's break it down....

Tradition and History
IndyCar has been around much longer. The sport has a great history. But it's tradition is gone. Even Indianapolis is a mere shadow of it's former self. Beyond IMS there is nothing.

NASCAR on the other hand is filled with rich tradition even with a much shorter history. At every single watershed moment for NASCAR, there has been a seamless transition to the next phase of growth and success.

Field Size and Strength
Other than the 33 cars that start the Indy 500, you are looking at a mere 18 cars on the grid each week. Cup takes the green with 43 every week. And that is with 48-53 trying to get in every week.

That speaks volumes right there.

What's more, there are maybe ten drivers in all of IRL who have a realistic shot of winning a race this year.

In NASCAR, there aren't ten drivers who don't have a realistic shot of winning a race.

Sure, many NASCAR fans and commentators have bemoaned Hendrick Motorsports total dominance this season. That's nothing compared to the gap between the haves and have-nots in IRL.

Fan and Sponsor Support
This one is pretty clear cut. You have NASCAR looking up only at the NFL and most venues sold out. IndyCar has to give tickets away (and still has to close off 60% of the seating).

At the Richmond IndyCar race I attended, nearly half of the 40,000 there were on free tickets. Most of them were actually NASCAR fans like me who were cheating.

The PR team couldn't even find anyone in the stands to answer even the most basic IndyCar trivia in order to give away stuff. They finally gave up and asked a question a NASCAR fan would know ("What is the distance of RIR?").

NASCAR has primary sponsors for more teams than can make the race. IndyCar doesn't even have a title sponsor for the series.

As far as TV goes, we'll get there....

Unified vs. Divided
NASCAR is a benevolent dictatorship. There are times when that is more than a little frustrating for everyone. But it sure beats the fratricide that exists in the American Open wheel racing between IRL and CHAMP.

Talk about killing the golden goose.

Purse Size
After twelve races only six IRL drives have won over $1 million. In NASCAR, you had 38 who had won over $1 million after twelve races.

It looks like IndyCar is going to lose at least one driver -- a former champion no less -- to NASCAR in 2008.

The best thing to happen to the series since the IRL/CART split has been Danica Patrick (although not everyone is thrilled about that). If she decides to go drive stock cars, what is going to happen to the purse size and the stability of IndyCar then?

Television
Ratings aren't even worth discussing.

But Dave, while you and your fellow corporate types are sipping C####nay in a suite at an IndyCar road race (where you get to see your favorite driver for ten seconds every 70 seconds), I'm watching a NASCAR race from the best seat there is: on my couch watching in the race in beautiful, High Definition.

Sure, the experience of being at the track is a great experience. But NASCAR fans get to do something 38 times a year that IndyCar fans have only ever gotten once: a race in HD. If you want to watch the race, it is the best seat in the house.

Sure, NASCAR fans have to put up with the nightmare amateurs at TNT (and there are plenty of times those clowns make us want to go Kyle Petty), and sure ESPN has shown they can underwhelm, but at least we've get a solid dose of racing on Fox.

Of course, don't forget, NASCAR fans get 38 races a year and IndyCar only gets 17.

Racing
This is what it's all about. Good solid racing.

More than anything else, this is where IndyCar has slid and NASCAR is consistent and solid.

Sure, NASCAR puts on a couple of snoozers (hey, we have two road races on the schedule). But remember that magic number? 25,122.

That is the number of quality passes in NASCAR just so far this season (a quality pass is a green flag pass of a top 15 car -- a stat they don't even bother to keep in IndyCar because it happens so rarely).

Go to IndyCar.com and do a search on "difficult to pass".

It turns up 20 results. IndyCar has only had 12 races so far. Yet plenty of IRL drivers keep talking about how "difficult to pass" it is.

As frustrating as it is for the drivers, how frustrating is it for the fans? How many lead lap passes for position have there been in IndyCar this year? 250, 500, 600, 1,000?

Nobody knows, but it is a real small number.

In racing, passing is like scoring. Americans like lots of scoring. NASCAR has lots of scoring, kind of like the NFL.

IndyCar doesn't, kind of like soccer. Get a few more paying fans and with that much frustration there maybe you guys could create some interest with some good solid soccer style riots.

So when you think about the "pack circling and circling" aren't you really thinking IRL, Dave?

Because in NASCAR, that pack of rabid dogs is fighting tooth and nail, metal on metal for track position in nearly every corner on every single lap in every race -- not just the final few.

What's the Real Agenda of Behind Support for Mike Vick and Justification of Dog Fighting?

I'm taking a short break from training for the NASCAR vs. IndyCar rumble with Dave in Indy and doing my first non-NASCAR specific post.

But first, I've got a question for my fellow NASCAR fans....

Imagine for a second that it was your favorite driver whose name was in the dog fighting indictment. Junior, Gordon, Stewart, Kahne, Montoya, Hamlin, Johnson, Burton or whoever. Would you be out there defending him and justifying or minimizing dog fighting?

Just curious.

In spite of the fact that Dave in Indy and I don't see eye to on a number of motorsports topics, we're in 100% in agreement that the entire idea of "innocent until proven guilty" has been trashed in this country and that only being indicted means you are still innocent.

Then the defenders of Vick are going much further than "let him have his day in court."

Sure, they start off with that. Then they start saying the case is weak and the evidence is just based on testimony by snitches who are criminals.

Well, the case against Tim Donaghy for fixing NBA points and spreads is almost certainly based on criminal snitch testimony. How come the same people defending Vick aren't fighting for Donaghy as well?

What the Vick defenders do next, after they attack the case for being weak is really stunning to me.

First, they completely ignore the gambling aspect of the case. Then many of the Vick defenders begin justifying and minimizing the dog fighting.

So I've got to ask the Vick defenders a question. What is your real agenda?

Obviously, you don't care that much when someone like Donaghy is treated like he is "guilty until proven innocent". If you did, you would be out in front fighting for him.

Are you that rabid a fan of the Falcons or Virginia Tech that this is a homer thing? Even an area code 757 thing?

Is this about race loyalty of some kind?

Do you actually participate in dog fighting yourself and just don't have the stones to say it?

At this point, Vick and Donaghy are both innocent. Everyone has been accused of something they didn't do before. Indicted doesn't mean they did it.

Hypothetically, let's say they both did do it (regardless of whether either is ever convicted of anything -- I'm talking about what really happened, not what the courts say). There have been people who have engaged in dog fighting and there have been point shaving scandals before.

In my mind, someone who gets off on dog fighting is a much worse human being than someone who gets caught up in a situation and engages in a crime about money and addiction.

That doesn't mean I'm defending or minimizing fixing games or being involved with organized crime. I'm saying the kind of sociopath who can get off on stealing, torturing and slaughtering house pets is much worse.

Dear Dave,

In your comments on my Sports Writer Challenge entry, we pretty much agreed to disagree.

You think IndyCar is the greatest thing since the discovery of the simultaneous orgasm with "real racing nearly all the time". While you like all forms of racing, you think NASCAR is "the pack circling and circling." You said, "the middle five hours can be miserable...until it's time for the last 3 to 5 laps".

On the other hand, I wrote in my entry, "Want boring road races? Go watch Indy." You called this a "cheap shot". I've said I like IndyCar. It was my first love in autoracing, but it is kind of like the hot chick you used to date who let herself completely fall apart. NASCAR in my view is exceptionally hot, in great shape, very exciting and extremely willing.

Then, just when we agreed to disagree, you decide to improve the quality and tone of the discussion by name calling. Come on Dave, you have all this great Gordan Gecko corporate boardroom experience and "butthead" is the best you can come up with? "Butthead"? I know you can do so much better than that. What's more, don't I deserve better than that?

I'd even offered you an out. I said I'd ease off "goofing on how boring open wheel is when the open wheel guys stop acting like their sport is so superior. Same deal goes for soccer." To which you decided to crack back with the whole "pack circling and circling" thing.

So I'm going to give you your chance. I want you to come down from your corporate suite high above the front stretch at Indianapolis Motor Speedway. I want you to make your way into the infield where I am with all the mud, naked women and otherwise great unwashed masses for a Saturday Night Live style Point/Counter Point: INDYCAR vs. NASCAR.

I'll be Jim Belushi and you get to be Jane Curtain.

You write why IndyCar is better than NASCAR and I'll write why NASCAR is better than IndyCar.

If you are up for it, just reply here. Then, between 9PM and 10PM Eastern on Tuesday, we will each post on our own blogs. 24 hours later, we'll each respond to the other's original post. If we need to move the time, we'll figure it out along with any other ground rules.

Dave, I realize that you don't get what The Black Flag is all about. That's okay, we can still have some fun with this. That's the entire idea here -- fun, not blog on blog crime.

You don't hate NASCAR and I don't hate IndyCar. We're just discussing which of us is with the hottest woman.

Looking forward to your response,

CCR