I'm putting a post here in hopes of attracting a healthy debate. I really think most people have basically given the MVP award to Sidney Crosby this year, and I dont think he deserves it. My personal choice would be the man who is leading the NHL in goals, tied for 6th in Game-winning goals, 2nd in the league in Short-handed goals, top ten in Power Play goals and second in points., Vincent Lecavalier. But by all means, I want to hear what you have to say.
I know I'll probably hear it from you guys, but to me, Crosby isnt half the player Lecavalier is. Vinny is a force every night for his team, logging over 22 mins a game on the ice, playing power play, penalty kill and even strength. His even rating may turn some people off, but when you're on the penalty kill nearly the entire 2 minutes, it will affect your +/-. The most telling stat for me is that 6 of his 45 goals are game-winners, several other are game-sealers, and that more than 65% of his assists are PRIMARY. Compare that to Crosby, who has about 50/50 Primary to Secondary in the assist column. If you've ever read this article , you know that the secondary assist can be a very misleading stat. If you re-calculate the assist of Lecavalier and Crosby, removing all secondary assists, it looks like this: (sorry the data is about a week old)
Player GP G A Pts w/o secondary assists
CROSBY PIT 58 26 41 67
LECAVALIER T.B 64 41 26 67
When you look at this, the gap in points between Lecavalier and Crosby is erased, but Lecavalier still has all those goals. And to me, goals are more important than assists. If you look at scoring consistency, Lecavalier has been held scoreless in only 8 games this year, compared to Crosby's 12. Further, Lecavalier has only gone 2 consecutive games without a poin ONCE. Crosby is now mired in a 3 game skid, however, he hasnt gone more than 2 games without a point in a row.
I know many of you will talk about Crosby's effect on every player on the ice, his role in the locker room, blah, blah, blah. To me Crosby does nothing that Lecavalier doesnt do better. EXCEPT ONE THING:
Crosby whines better.
Take this from someone who plays the game: it's ok to be mad about a call, even if its a good one. But if you're a player that can be found talking to the referee about calls after EVERY WHISTLE, then there's a problem. I like Crosby as a player, and he seems like a great guy, but if you're a leader of a team, there are times when you have to lead by example (And I'm not talking about Jarko Ruutu's new-found prowess at diving). Sometimes, you get a bad call, and then you just have to suck it up and kill the penalty. To me, that should make Crosby inelegible for MVP, at least until he grows up a bit and matures.
The MVP shouldn;t just come down to statistics. Team record is important, but for the time being I'm looking at both PIT and TBL as teams in similar standings (they actually are pretty close) and what happens in the playoffs should weigh heavily on the voter's minds. The purpose of this post is to open up everybody's mind, and to prevent Crosby from winning the MVP just because everybody assumed he deserved it most.
One final note, I disregarded Martin Brodeur from this list for a reason. I dont believe a goaltender should win MVP. Just like in baseball, goaltenders have their own award, and MVP should be limited to skaters, not a goaltender who plays in a defense-first system, especially not a system that still traps even if the team is down 2 goals. To me, Brodeur is a great goalie, and a certain Hall of Famer, but his system is set to help him out in every way possible. Im not knocking the trap here, even though I think its killing Hockey's marketability. Brodeur is a great goalie, and he should win the Vezina hands-down, but he should NOT be included in MVP voting.
Brodeur should be included in the voting. I dont care if hes a goalie or not, Brodeur is more important to his team than anybody else is to theirs. The Devils are in the bottom of the league when it comes to scoring goals, yet the Devils are one of the better teams in the league. They average 2.5 goals a game, and Brodeur gives up 2.1 a game. I dont care what the position is, the MVP award goes to the player whos most valuable to his team.
i sort of agree with you, crosby is more than half the player vinny is, i think he is probably better, but crosby is not as good as everyone thinks, and about your "about me" im sixteen and already am a ready man, I cheer for the flyers, lol
But answer me this AM: how many games has Brodeur stolen this year? How many times has he been left out to dry by his team, and is forced to make stop after stop just to keep them in the game?
My answer would be very few. that team would always be in the game,a nd Brodeur doesn't get left out on his own due to the team defense concept. Going off that logic, Brodeur isnt the most important part of that team, the team concept is.
Brodeur has stolen more than a few games this year. He is the runaway winner without debate. No other goaltender would have New Jersey sitting 2nd overall in the East.
The real debate you should have, boltfan, is who the Tampa MVP is. Vinny or St. Louis?
Dan: In all honesty, its a toss up between marty and vinny, with vinny gaining the edge from the goal lead.
BUT Marty already has an MVP, so I'm making the case for Vinny. This team has the opportunity to a. keep the cup in the Southeast division another year
b. make it 2 of the last 3 years with a bolt winning the MVP.
My argument agaisnt Brodeur is this: if you stuck any other NHL starting goaltender in for that team, would their results be markedly different than Brodeurs?
I honestly dont think so. Those goalies would still have the wins, even if their numbers were slightly worse than Brodeur's. Now if you stick Brodeur in any other system, he'd probably be close to as good as he is now, but not to the level that New Jersey's defense has allowed him to rise. If broduer had the numbers he does now with an attacking, forechecking team that leaves the goalie to odd man rushes constantly, I'd give him the award hands down. But he doesnt. He plays on a team that's only goal is to minimize goals against, even at the cost of scoring/winning some games.
Blogby; I probably wouldnt be making this argument, but like I said the purpose is to open everybod's eyes. Crosby gets so much ridiculous pub that most people havent written the MVP race off to him. Meanwhile, guys like Marty St. louis, and Vinny Lecavalier arent getting a lot of press, which is a damn shame.
Crosby is doing this at the age of 19. I am not saying the two guys cant play, I would love to See St.louis blast though and win the scoring, but they are older than him and have been around longer. You need to be a good hockey player to lead the NHL at 19 with the amount of games hes played, he is alos a nice guy, I met him while i was in pittsburgh
1. Your plus/minus doesn't get effected when on the penalty kill. So Lecavalier being on the ice for the penalty kill doesn't mean much. In fact since they have one of the worst penalty kills in the league, that just brings down your argument.
2. Comparing goaltenders and pitchers is comparing apples and oranges. The reason pitchers aren't considered for MVP is because they don't play everyday. Goalies do so they can be considered for a MVP.
Ok in saying all that, I think the MVP has to go to Marty. In fact, its a two-way race between Broduer and Crosby.
I respect that you want Vinny to win it but besides leading the league in goals, you really don't have any argument. Not to mention Tampa is still fighting for its playoff lives, the Devils and Pens have their feet firmly in the playoff door.
Also, how can you remove secondary assists? Sometimes its the first pass that opens everything up for the primary assist guy to make the play.
All in all, I think its safe to say Vinny won't be winning it this year.
This is how fans from non-hockey cities think. SCORING = MVP and it is just not true.
Lecavalier is a tremendous young talent but likes to play at the top of the blue line on defense. His speed and power is unbelievable but he refuses to do the dirty work.
Vinny has scored 45 goals this year and has a +1 rating. This means that the opposing team basically trades goals with him when he is on the ice in an even strength situation. Add in the fact that 16 of his goals have come on the Power Play and it is easy to deduct that Vince is a defensive liability.
Crosby is getting better inside his own blueline. He was a -1 last year and has raised his game slightly this year with a +9. But Sidney has only scored 19 even strength goals. Compare that to Danny Heatley who has scored 26 even strength goals and sports a +24 rating. Hendrick Zetterburg has 33 goals, 22 of them at even strenght, 10 game winners and a +26 rating.
Hi,
Good post. It should be an interesting battle for what they call the Hart Trophy MVP if I'm not mistaken sorry. Anyways I've written an article on Sidney Crosby trying to promote the face of hockey. Check it out. Take care and best wishes. fenfan67
LGB: you plus/mius IS affected on the powerplay. The NHL merely look at all goals scored while you are on the ice.
As for the Ligtnings playoff hopes, the Lightning currently have the largest % chance to make the playoffs of all the teams outside division leaders, and the Penguins only have 2 more points than the Bolts. So I dont know where you're coming from there.
As for removing secondary assists, what I was saying was that the secondary is commmonly awarded even when there is not a reason, especialy to "premier" players like Crosby. I think that makes the validity of the point, and the fact that is is equal to a goal or primary assist is laughable. If you think I have no argument for Vinny's candidacy except for his goals lead, then you havent seen this team play. Lecavalier os the heart of that team.
Flying Pig: you just need to take that #### somewhere else. Dont come in here running your mouth about "non-hockey cities" and how we dont know anything about hockey. I've been watching the game since I was a child, and I play the game so it #### me off when people like you assume I dont know hockey because im from Florida. As for you candidates:
Lidstrom is a great defenseman, but I've always thought he was overrated,
Briere doesnt come through in the clutch situations,
Kariya may or may not be a candidate, but he's killed by playing for Nashville,
Vanek may be a candidate for Selke, but not MVP, and
Selanne was hurt bad by his mid-season slump, which coincided with is team slumping.
AS for you comments on Lecavalier, he plays at the top o
AS for you comments on Lecavalier, he plays at the top of the circle when backchecking because that's where the team wants him, as evidenced by his ability to break for the puck after his D regains control. That's not Vinny's idea, its the coach's.If you think he doesnt want to do the dirty work the you're just high. Lecavalier is one of the Lightnings toughest players in the corner and one of the hardest guys in the league to knock off the puck. as for the plus/minus, Lecavalier does play on a team that gives up a lot of goals, more than a few of them due to our shaky goaltending.
As for assuming that I think scoring = MVP, look at my post. I said at the end it should be about more than stats, which is why I brought up the Crsoby Whining and diving. Interesting none of you have chosen to pick up on that topic.
Boltsfan- If you notice, I said when you are on the penalty kill it doesn't effect your plus/minus. And it doesn't. That hurts you, because Tampa is terrible on the penalty kill and if its true Vinny is on the ice most of the time, that doesn't say a lot for him.
As for your comments on Briere....Hahahahahhahaha. Doesn't come through in the clutch? He is by far the most clutch player on the Sabres. All the big goals, late goals have mostly come from him.
By the way, the Pens do have two more points but they also have PLAYED two less games.
Like I said, I know you want Vinny to win but realistically hes an outside shot at best. I think The_Dan put it the best when he said you should be talking about who is the MVP on Tampa because St. Louis isn't having a bad season at all.
By the way, do you live in Orlando? I saw you put up Bianchi's piece. If you are, please tell me how sad it is the Sentinel's coverage of the NHL! I can't believe I have to wake up every morning to that ####!
I know. I went to the paper one day (I get it at UCF everyday for my GF)_ and literally the NHL had a 4" square for like 8 different games. Its pathetic. But I do think the columnists, especially Bianchi are great.
BTW I'm getting a little worried. The better the Magic get, the more games they get televised on SUN which prob means the Lightning coverage here will suffer.
Anyway guys, I wont be able to comment here for at least a couple days. I actually managed to coincide my spring break with a vacation from work, so I'll be camping in Tenn. the next couple days. Feel free to use the blog to continue the discussion.
Oh I just read this so I thought I would add it to your blog so we know how the plus/minus system works. This is courtesy of Espn.com:
Plus-minus rating
A skater gets a +1 if he is on the ice when his team scores an even-strength or shorthanded goal. He gets a -1 if he is on the ice when his team allows an even-strength or shorthanded goal. This does not apply to goalies.
Enjoy your vacation.
Last edited by LetsGoBuffalo on March 9th at 8:37 AM.
It'll be a close run thing between Crosby, Lecavalier and off coure Brodeur. But if it's judged on popularity alone it'll probably go to Crosby. Just so the sport has something finally to crow about. It's not as if it's catching the attention of everyone at the moment. It's only the most ardent of fans that realise that the season is in full effect and is now winding down towards its postseason.
1. Counted in EVEN STRENGTH situations. Most of the time this will be 5 on 5, but you will see roughing/fighting penalties being assest to both teams. The +/- is in affect.
2. If you are on the ice when YOUR team scores a goal, you are awarded a point.
3. If you are on the ice when the OPPOSING team scores a goal, you are deducted a point.
4. When a team is shorthanded (Penalty Kill) and they score a goal. All players of the shorthanded team on the ice are awarded one point.
SO BOLTSFAN or anyone else who is confused about +/- ratings. They are NOT affected when you are on the POWER PLAY or a PENALTY KILL....Only when you are in an EVEN STRENGTH SITUATION!!!
Lecavalier is a +1 which means he is both an offensive THREAT and a defensive LIABILITY. Sidney is a good playmaker and decent scorer. He has been awarded some assists this year without even touching the puck (Promote the Face of Hockey). But Crosby is only a +9 with 26 goals. He is tied for 26th place in goal scoring.
NEITHER Crosby nor Lecavalier is worthy of the Hart Trophy this year. Good OFFENSE ONLY players on mediocre teams should not win MVP awards.
Last edited by FlyingPig on March 10th at 7:56 AM.
BoltsFan - I guess you want this to be a LET'S ALL SUCK VINNY'S #### post. Don't throw your opinion out for comments and then tell someone to take their #### somewhere else.
If you don't want me making comments on your blog...Just #### say so AND I will steer clear. Until then...I have my own #### opinion about Vinny. I dont' think he's even CLOSE to being an MVP. The guy plays NO DEFENSE!!!
As for you being a hockey fan since you were a booger picker...I see you know all about the rules and you are up on your +/- too. Fact is that southern born people are not as up on hockey than those from northern states. YOU PERSONALLY may be a huge hockey fan. GREAT for you. But don't make it sound like I'm out of line saying that southern hockey fans are not as SCHOOLED in the game as norhtern fans.
Try to follow along with me for a minute and I'll try to teach you a little bit about this game that you claim to be a staunch fan of.
Alexander Ovechkin is a tremendous young talent and has amazing stick handling skills, sees the ice well, has soft hands around the net and is a great passer. He has scored 38 goals this year with 14 coming on the power play and 24 coming in even-strength situations. That would give him +24 to start. However, Ovechkin is a -18 player which means that opponents have scored on his team 42 times in even strength situations.
So as great of a young talent as he is, Ovechkin is a defensive liability. He has basically given up twice as many goals as he has scored.
In FAIRNESS, Ovechkin is a forward and the Caps are NOT a good defensive team nor do they sport a stellar goaltending tandem with Johnson and Cassivi. But a hockey traditionalist KNOWS that defense starts with the forwads.
Now go and do the math with Vinny Lecavalier. I realize that he is a great player on the team that you cheer for. You want your star players to be recognized, but there is no way you can say that Vinny plays both sides of the ice like an MVP.
The system does not matter anymore, New Jersey's defense has weakened over the last 5 years. This season has by far been Brodeur's best, he has never looked as good as he has this year. The whole 'system' thing fell apart when he stole the show at the 2002 Olympics when his defense was shaky early in the tourney.
Boltfan I know you like Vinny and so do I, but St. Louis is the guy that makes Tampa go. Without St. Louis I don't think Vinny would be this good. Martin is the guy makes ridiculous passes and handles the puck the best on that team. His resurrection has lifted this team, therefore he's the MVP of Tampa.
OK I love the thoughts of who everyone thinks deserves to recieve the Hart Trophey so I think now would be a GREAT time for me to toss in MY 2 cents... HENDRICK ZETTERBEG! Come on people wake up this guy is on fire, since the new era has rung into Hockey Town (Post Yzerman era) This guy has stood up and taken the bull by the horns. He is currently a + 26, 33 goals and 35 assist for 68 points, he has 10 game winners! So out of 33 goals 1/3 of them are the nail in the coffin for the opposing teams and how many of those assist have lead to being the game winner? He is a clutch player on a team of soild hockey players. Odd he quietly goes about his way and just continues to play hard (Sounds like someone familar?) He is also a Canadit for the Selke Trophy witch is handed out to the best Defensive Forwards so when he recieves that maybe he should recieve a few more... Hart Trophy, Bill Masterdon Trophey and the Lady Byng. If this team makes it to the Stanley Cup finals you can chaulk him up for one more award and that would be the Con Smyth Trophy. You all had great choices but you left this one out.
1. He is 19 years old, set the record for youngest player to hit 200 and youngest player to have 2-100 pt seasons.
2. He is leading the leaguw in pts.
3. Great Leader
4. Doesn't get as much ice time as many other ppl.
5. Until he came, penguins were horrible, didn't come close to the playoffs, and now he (with the help of his new teammates of course) has brought penguins to almost the division leader.
I am a 5'6" hockey player and rabid hockey fan. I am that rarest of hockey fans in that I am from Florida, born and raised. I love all Tampa Bay teams, including the Devil Rays (takes a real man to like a losing team all you Yankees #### kissers).
Now residing in Orlando Fl. (and there's way more here than just the mouse) Go to the University fo Central Florida, one of the most up and coming college athletic programs, and working on a history degree. Anybody who makes blanket statements that prove to be historically inaccurate will feel my wrath!
