We have come to the 3rd installment of “He Said, She Said.” While the last 2 have been extremely interesting and fun, this one should inspire somewhat of a feud from those on either side of the fence. This time Rev and I ask, “Should Pete Rose be allowed to take his place among baseball’s greatest in MLB’s Hall of Fame?” How many years has this debate been going on? For some, it is a lifetime. Should Pete Rose be inducted into the Hall of Fame or should baseball stand by their “ban for life” decision passed down in 1989. Baseball has been extremely clear of its stance on gambling. The HOF is filled with adulterers, racists and crooks of every kind who have gotten away with suspensions or a slap on the wrist. But gambling is the HOF’s murder charge and the sentence is death. How just is this stance? Can’t the Hall forgive the sinner without forgiving the sin?
Let’s first take a look at what the man has done during his MLB career. Pete Rose earned the nickname “Charlie Hustle” because of his determination and the passion he took with him every time he stepped onto the diamond. He was famous for always running to 1st base even after a walk and reviving the dangerous head-first slide. Rose is the only player to play 500 games at 5 different positions and is probably the most efficient switch-hitter in baseball history.
Pete’s love for the game was apparent in everything he did. His career was impressive as he still holds quite a few records. These include 4,256 hits, 3,562 games, and 14,053 at bats. He also has in his arsenal three batting titles, 1968, 69 and 73; six World Series appearances – three ending in championships. He is 2nd all-time in doubles, 4th in runs, and amassed at the least 100 hits in his first 23 seasons, another record. He had more than 200 hits in a season 10 times, also a record, and led the league in hits for 7 seasons.
Rose was Rookie of the Year in 1963. In 1975 he was named the World Series Most Valuable Player, Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year, The Sporting News Man of the Year and was named the Player of the Decade for the 1970s by TSN. Anyone who knows baseball has certainly heard of “The Big Red Machine.” Rose was one of the most important contributors to the Reds domination of the 70’s.
In 1989, Charlie Hustle was banned from the game for gambling on baseball while he was manager/player for the Cincinnati Reds by then Commissioner Giamatti. His statistical standing in the history of major league baseball cannot be touched but will they ever be officially recognized? Some say yes if he owns up to what he has done and apologize for the behavior. I say, why should this matter?
Since Rose’s departure from the game as a player, there has yet to be anyone to fill the void of his passion and desire. I heard Joe Morgan once say in an interview that if he could impose one wish on a young player coming into the major league, it would be to spend one year with Pete Rose as a teammate.
The Hall of Fame just isn’t complete without the inclusion of Pete Rose. It is a museum for the fans and is supposed to honor those who played the game better than anyone during their tenure. I understand and do agree Rose should never be allowed to manage again nor hold any position in professional baseball. However, apology or not for the gambling, Charlie Hustle is a Hall of Famer. PLEASE stop moralizing MLB! Don’t kid yourself that past, current, and future inductees were given some kind of character and moral fitness test prior to their admission.
Under any impartial standard, Pete Rose was one of the greatest players to play the game of baseball. Under any sober standard, he has to be included in the group of people who are the greatest players to play the game of baseball.
Honor the player. The gambler has been punished.
For the view from the other side of the fence see what Rev has to say...
I think Rose should be in the HOF. Didn't he gamble as a coach, not a player? Even if he was a player, he tried to hard and was too good not to make the Hall.
Great post, bluegrass!
Last edited by hstreet4cyyoung on July 17th at 9:24 PM.
Bluegrass you already know my position from previously he should be there. Heck, he actually showed seriousness in an All-Star when he ran into the catcher. What makes me pissed is that he was tricked into believe by confessing he would go to the HOF. You have people who cheat way worse then he has as a player in there like ####lord Perry.
When you consider the names in the hall of fame that by any standard of "morality" at all should not be there, you simply cannot continue to exclude Pete Rose unless you have proof that he bet AGAINST his own team. Even betting ON his own team says he had confidence in his own team. This has gone on long enough. Put Rose in the hall of fame.
When you consider Mantle and Ford's actions concerning Roger Maris and their general overall behavior, I don't think they belong in the hall of fame as I say in my latest blog. Certainly not if you're going to hold athletes to the highest standards of behavior up and down the line all of a sudden. Put Rose in or take them out.
Last edited by OneLastOutlaw on July 18th at 2:16 AM.
Being the boy in the blog I wote several months back, walking down the hot summer roads in those endless summer day's, he was our hero. Bench, Tony Perez, Ken Griffey Sr. ( Thats hard to say after saying jr. all these years), Dave Concepcion Morgan the 2nd baseman, not the TV guy. We would wait all day to watch the game or hear it on the radio. All the while not even knowing Rose was doing this. Kinda like your parents after you went to bed. What did they do...
He has let us down, our youth's hereo and we've forgiven him. I say that's harder for the local boy than the actual betting and his forgivness. I'd say 90% of Reds fans from 300 miles of Cimcinnati want him in the Hall no matter what, if only for his accomplishment.
If someone one day actually breaks that record, doe's the Hall even mention Pete and the record broken, or is it muted out because of his behavior. Who knows.
That's a sad pic of Pete going back into the clubhouse.
Edit
( I brought this over from Revs site. The opinion doesn't change. )
Rose should be in the HOF and should not be allowed to manage or be affiliated with any MLB team again.
The catch with him only betting on his own team is still not good since say Pete bet $100 on the Reds on a Tuesday and lost, then $200 on Wednesday and lost, then $400 on Thursday and lost, now Friday comes along and he bets $1000 on the Reds and decides to let his closer go an extra inning more than he should have or doesn't use "long range planning" managers need from time to time regarding their players since he has such a large amount on this particular game. That's the flaw in saying only betting on the Reds wasn't that bad.
He has the numbers as one of the greatest hitters EVER and deserves to be in the HOF based on that. It's doubtful he'll ever make the Moral Majority HOF but he should be in baseball's.
bluegrasslady - I got carried away on Rev's He Said post but not in his opinion. Rose was wrong and Giamatti did what he had to do. End of that portion. Vincent and now Selig are the problem. Hypocrits to the very end. Selig continually dangles the carrot in front of Rose. Admit this and we'll at least talk reinstatement. Well, ok but wait a minute, what about..? He has admitted he was wrong. Initially all they wanted was an admission. Now they want everything categorized. They argue the moral fiber and the integrity of baseball on this. Then if that is the case they have to remove Selig from any part of the decision making process. His business dealings leave enough evidence as to his moral fiber and integrity for me. As to Rose...I agree with you. Honor the player. As such he deserves to be in the HOF. He never did anything as a manager to deserve it anyway and isn't that when he was supposedly doing all the gmblin?
no rev...I mean exactly what I said. Honor the player by putting him in the HOF. The gambler has already paid the price. After whatching what Rose has been thru I seriously doubt any player would think it was alright to gamble. So, unless they were going to gamble anyways the lesson has been taught.
Marty, he was many little boy's and girl's hero. I loved the Big Red Machine and Rose was of course my fav along with Bench. It bothered me that he bet on the Reds but like you I have forgiven him long ago. Time for the HOF to do the same!
Last edited by bluegrassLady on July 18th at 7:26 AM.
BGL, not only did Rose play all those different positions, he was an All-Star at 2nd base, 3rd base, 1st base and LF. An All-star at four different positions, gimme a break. I've beat this drum for years. Unfortunately no one in MLB is listening. Honor the player.
Hi mustard!! I tend to agree with you but think it would be much worse if he had betted on the other team. One of Rose's problems is he is cocky. I think that is why he bet on his own team.
coach, I despise selig! Rose is one of the reasons. You put it exactly right. He is a tease. Hopefully he will leave soon and the next commissioner will have more sense and empathy.
Rose broke a big rule in baseball. If the MLB allows him back in, they will be condoning cheating and they will be saying that Pete Rose is bigger then the game of baseball itself. I donot think you can, in this instance, seperate the player from the person b/c both were involved inside the game at the time all this went down. Managers get paid to manage, and Rose was a Manager/player don't forget.
I have really enjoyed this series. Yes Rose should be in HOF. I do not understand the debate. He is the hits king. I have a friend who is a sportswriter in Cincy. He does not like Rose the man. BUT he says that Rose the player gave all he had to the game. He should not continue to be punished for that. Great post BGL!
I've been to Cooperstown on a few occassions. I do not miss the Pete Rose display. There is enough to see and you can never see it all. But you know something...I would have loved to see a display on Shoeless Joe Jackson who, some say, was the best baseball player of all time. There is no shrine to Jackson because he was implicated in a gambling conspiracy during the 1919 World Series.
It doesn't matter that Jackson hit .375 in the series and didn't make an error. Jackson didn't accept any money and never agreed to "throw" games in the series. Jackson is banned from enshrinement because he KNEW about the scandal and did not report it.
Rose is exactly where he should be. He is in the record books for the most career hits. He is also not in the HOF and that is also where he belongs. On the outside looking in.
FP - you nailed exactly what sucks about the Shoeless Joe Jackson thing. His numbers in that World Series would have made him an MVP in todays game. Can you say guilty by association. And if it is because he knew and didn't say anything...pretty freakin' lame for banning him for LIFE. Maybe an extended period would have been alright but LIFE. Gimme a break. So MLB was self important back then as well.
This wasn't a private life vs. professional life issue - he gambled on baseball while he was a manager.
One of the greatest examples of a person who should never be considered for the HOF. He destroyed his greatness with his actions within the profession, and has never convincingly acknowledged his total involvement - and then his admission was grudgingly given, exceptionally late (decades later), likely only partial, and not at all displaying an awareness of how deeply wrong he had been.
Wrong hill to die on. Shoeless Joe - a much better argument (as in having some merit).
Last edited by Dave_in_Indy on July 18th at 8:22 AM.
The hall of fame is not a church. It should reward people who have displayed skills better than most and Pete Rose was one of the best who "ever" played the game, period. He should be in. We would have a very empty hall if you took out players who drank, did drugs, cheated on their wifes, didn't play 100% at all times (which is cheating the game), etc.
GCoach - Not my point at all. The point that I was making is that there are rules. GOLDEN RULES if you must. The penalty for breaking those rules are plainly stated and available for every Union Dues Paying Ballplayer in the Major Leagues. The rules don't say that if a back up 2nd baseman with 16 games and 10 at bats gets caught gambling...HE is banned for life. The rules say that ANY player involved in gambling is BANNED for life.
My whole point for bringing up Jackson was to illustrate that he was FAR FAR FAR LESS guilty than Pete Rose, yet his ban has survived for nearly 98 years.
Rose is the guilty one here...All of the Rose backers are blaming Giamatti, Vincent and numb #### for Pete Roses actions. Rose KNEW the rules and put himself above everyone else because he was "Charlie Hustle" and he held the HIT record. Sometimes sticking to a tough punishment is hard to do...but it's the right thing.
It is the attitude of our current society that we lift the boundries from just punishments. So what would the punishment be for the NEXT guy that gambles on baseball. How about when he says..."At least I didn't bet on MY OWN TEAM...my punishment shouldn't be as harsh as Rose."
I don't think there is any question about it, he should be in the Hall of Fame. The situation surrounding his gambling is completely irrelevant to his HOF status.
I can't deny that he's a complete joke now, but that has nothing to do with it. For the MLB to think otherwise is also a joke. It's laughable that they continue this overly-harsh stance against Rose, while they ignored something more serious (steroids) for years.
There is no integrity or character amongst the big-wigs of baseball, and something like this proves it.
rev, I will agree with you on that, however, it was never proven he gambled as a player. So don't put him in as a manager as his stats there wouldn't put him in the hall anyway. I thought we were talking about Rose the "player".
A precident was set back in 1919. If you are involved in gambling or aware o####ambling conspiracy, you will be BANNED FROM MLB for the remainder of time...FREAKING PERIOD!!!
Pete Rose, Faye Vincent, Bart Giamatti and Numb #### did not set this precident.
It can be awfully easy for us fans to sit back and make judgement calls based on Pete Rose without ever taking into consideration the affect it will have down the road.
Take Pete Rose out of the picture. Is it FAIR...if any person who is involved with Major League Baseball is AWARE. That if caught gambling on Major League Baseball...They will be BANNED from any MLB Sanctioned interests and events? Understand the question. If they KNOW the consequences in advance...is the punishment fair?
Pete Rose made a choice when he knew the consequences of his own actions.
If my boss told me that blogging from work will cost me my job and I continued to blog. How would/could I be justified in complaining about the consequences of my own actions? It is simple and it doesn't matter what "WE THE FANS" think about the rules of Major League Baseball.
Last edited by FlyingPig on July 18th at 10:39 AM.
The Rose situation is a tricky one. While it is true that others are in the HOF and have far greater character issues than Rose, gambling, right or wrong, is the kiss of death in baseball and everyone knows it. When Rose crossed that line, he knew how much risk he was taking and did it anyway. Like I said, there may be other things that register higher on the wrongdoing scale, but everyone associated with the game knows that gambling on baseball is the one thing that you absolutely cannot do, including Rose.
Of course, as a matter of accomplishment, I do find it absurd that the all-time hits leader doesn't have a plaque in the place that is supposed to honor such monumental accomplishments in the game.
However, at a time when everything appeared clear for his reinstatement, it seeemed that all Rose needed to do at that moment was offer a sincere apology. Pete's response? Read all about my apology...when you buy my book. Then the window of opportunity closed and Selig and his cronies, sensing public opinion had turned, started heaping all sorts of other conditions on him for the possibility of reinstatement.
Bottom line, should he be in the HOF? Yes. Could he have been in the HOF had he handled his one opportunity to be in better? Yes. Who does he have to blame for not being on the HOF? Himself.
You make a compelling case, BGL. Good job. Keep up the good work.
FlyingPig, you are correct. That is exactly what it says and I feel he should be banned from MLB. But the Hall, that is independent from MLB. It's a museum that represents all the great accomplishments of the great players. Rose was a great player.
Hey All! I am a sports nut....especi ally college hoops!! You have to be if you are from Kentucky. Basketball is a religion here in The Blue Grass. We love our WildCats and can be tough on them at times. However, you will never find more loyal or passionate fans! I am a Steeler fan, I am a Reds fan but, I am a WildCat!!
BLEED BLUE!!
allowed to take his place among baseball’s greatest in MLB’s Hall of Fame?” How many years has this debate been going on? For some, it is a lifetime. Should Pete Rose be inducted into the Hall of Fame or should baseball stand by their “ban for life” decision passed down in 1989. Baseball has been extremely clear of its stance on gambling. The HOF is filled with adulterers, racists and crooks of every kind who have gotten away with suspensions or a slap on the wrist. But gambling is the HOF’s murder charge and the sentence is death. How just is this stance? Can’t the Hall forgive the sinner without forgiving the sin?
impressive as he still holds quite a few records. These include 4,256 hits, 3,562 games, and 14,053 at bats. He also has in his arsenal three batting titles, 1968, 69 and 73; six World Series appearances – three ending in championships. He is 2nd all-time in doubles, 4th in runs, and amassed at the least 100 hits in his first 23 seasons, another record. He had more than 200 hits in a season 10 times, also a record, and led the league in hits for 7 seasons. 
than anyone during their tenure. I understand and do agree Rose should never be allowed to manage again nor hold any position in professional baseball. However, apology or not for the gambling, Charlie Hustle is a Hall of Famer. PLEASE stop moralizing MLB! Don’t kid yourself that past, current, and future inductees were given some kind of character and moral fitness test prior to their admission. 
