When is cheating ‘OK’?? That’s a question I’ve been asking myself all day long. Now I’m not talking about cheating in a relationship…I’m talking about cheating in sports, especially professional sports. Its running ramped in many of the professional sports, yet not much is done to stop it. It seems that as long as there is a ton of money floating around, it’s ok to do whatever the heck you feel like doing. Some sports are better than others at policing the issue. So why can’t they all be like that??
Like it or not, agree with it or not, the people playing these sports are HUGE role models for kids, and what the kids see, the kids are going to do. Take steroids, become Johnny Fabulous Baseball Player, Wrestler, Football Dude, Hockey Dude…whatever. Even if the guy eventually gets caught, it’s not until he’s become richer than Midas, and has become a hero to his team’s fans. Basically the kids are seeing that even though Johnny got caught and everyone’s horrified now, he still made it to the big leagues and he still is loaded. It’s not really all bad is it??
The Olympics are held up as our great ideal and best example of what the true meaning of sportsmanship and friendly competition is. They tolerate no cheating of any kind, and if someone is caught out it becomes a very serious matter. So why can’t this ideal be upheld in all sport?? One word….money. Add that into the mix and sportsmanship, fair play, and integrity fly out the window.
I don’t want to get heavy into the drug issue. Some sports are very intolerant of the use of any illegal substance, and take extreme action should someone be caught using something they shouldn’t. Other sports, well…not so much.
Let’s pretend for a moment….
Its game seven of the Stanley Cup Playoffs and Team Wonderful is playing Team Fabulous. Unknown to all, Team Wonderful has discovered some new propulsion technology. The all have little hidden jet-like propulsion mechanisms in their skates, enabling them to skate circles around Team Fabulous. The game ends 10-0, but later, during the celebrations someone lets slip about their secret and they are discovered. The team is fined, the coaches reprimanded and fined but the result of the game still stands. In spite of everything Team Wonderful still goes home Stanley Cup Champions. Fair?? Hardly. Something you’d want your kids to think is OK?
Now let’s pretend that it’s the Super Bowl. Team Wonderful and Team Fabulous are playing. Team Wonderful is your ultimate favorite team and you’re sure they’ll win, but the game is a total blowout with Team Fabulous victorious. But alas..Team Fabulous is discovered to have been cheating. They rigged the football so that it would give electric shocks and was activated remotely every time your team got the ball. Team Fabulous is fined, reprimanded, put on probation..blah blah blah, yet the game still stands and they are Champions regardless. How happy are you as Team Wonderful was pretty much shafted and nothing was done about it?? Is it ok that Team Fabulous was cheating?? I didn’t think so.
Now let’s move to NASCAR. Yes you knew I’d get there eventually didn’t you? LMAO. 3fan's blog about Jack and the sway bar got me to thinking. Is it cheating? Now I say no. NASCAR has so many restrictions on these guys lately, it's amazing they can find anything at all to gain an advantange. And NASCAR has been built on Crew Chiefs always pushing the limits to find that extra edge.
But when does it go too far?? And when does the whole penalty situation start to become consistant. NASCAR has so many rules now that I doubt anyone knows even half of them anymore. And when they find something they dont like and cant find an appropriate rule already in place they fall back on the granddaddy of them all; "incidents detrimental to stock car racing"....The ultimate Golden Rule. It cant be agured with as the folks up there in the board room have become deaf dumb and blind.
So again we imagine, lets go back to a couple years ago.....
So #### has the points lead. But should he?? Earlier in the season…oh let’s see..at what race again?? Oh yeah…DAYTONA…the FIRST race of the bloody season, the 48 team was caught CHEATING. Their car did not pass inspection. They were fined..($50 grand is pocket change to these people) and his crew chief was suspended and 25 whopping points were taken away…yet the #### was still allowed to race (in the same car) and win the race, giving him 100+ championship points. Should his victory have stood? Damn right it shouldn’t have.
NASCAR has some great things. They have zero tolerance for drugs. They try to police the crew chiefs and their actions but they are lacking woefully in the punishment department and your punishment for anyone who gets caught seems to depend solely on WHO you are.
I seriously think that Hendrick has some kind of deal with NASCAR officials and Mike Helton. There are kickbacks or a lot of other money exchanging hands there I’m thinking. Cos Hendrick cars can get away with pretty much anything. Jimmie and Chad have been caught cheating several times in the last few years, yet receive barely a wrist slap and are sent out to do it again. Kyle Busch threw a glove out his window during a race this in order to bring out a caution and during another race, a piece of his roll bar foam mysteriously flew out a window. Did he get punished or slapped with any fines etc?? NOPE. Nothing. “ The evidence was inconclusive” says NASCAR. Yeah ####. Everyone and their dog knew who it was. But it was a Hendrick car again. Don’t wanna make poor Rick cry. Robbie Gordon threw a piece of his roll bar foam out his window in Atlanta. He needed a caution to get himself back on the lead lap. Was he punished??? Damn skippy he was. He got 50 driver and owner points taken away. Fifty is a lot of points…but hey he’s not a Hendrick car is he? Now this year Denny gets black flagged for basically the same thing (although I still have my doubts as to purposely give KB an edge..but thats another blog in itself). He gets black flagged but no penalties. Mikey goes psycho and nothing. Is it now Toyota with some serious pull??? Who knows.
So why aren’t these cheaters DQ’d for the race they cheat in? I guarantee they’d think twice before doing it again if that’s what happened when you do. Their sponsors would be livid…and let’s face it, the sponsors are where A LOT of the big bucks come from. No sponsors=no money=no team=no job for driver and crew. That year Jimmie Johnson would have 100+ less points because he’d have 0 for Daytona cos he’s a cheating ####. He’d not be on top of the standings.
But apparently it’s OK to cheat in NASCAR. Let's go back to Infineon last year shall we? JG and JJ parked for practice and qualifying...better but still not enough in my opinion. The 100 point thing is getting better too but is it still enough??
It’s still A-OK that the guy who cheats the most becomes the Champ. You may dislike drivers because of perceived personality traits or faults…God knows I do….but I think the best reason of all to dislike a team is because they CHEAT. They need an extra edge to play with the big boys and apparently it’s ok. After all, money talks……I hope your kids aren’t learning their value systems from these guys. That’s scary.
JG and JJ should have been parked FOR THE RACE at Infineon. The #48 crew ARE a bunch of cheaters. I LOVED seeing them cry a river after they were caught. (Can you tell I'm an anti-48 fan?) I agree that the victory should have been stripped from them and given to the second place driver. Then the points they earned should have been stripped away. Then they should have been parked for the next race. Clearly, there are a set of rules for Hendrick Motorsports (particularly for the #24 and #48) and a set of rules for everyone else. Pisses me off.
Excuse me, can someone please help me, I am in a time warp capsule in the year 2007. Someone push a button,
and take me to 2008.........There is something wrong, what do you mean a dog was in the other capsule? Does that mean?
Does this mean, I am part dog?
Well, then I will treat this blog like a dog would.......If you can't eat it or play with it?
Do you remember which race that Kyle threw his glove out at? Cause I don't recall Kyle ever being accused of that. I saw ROBBY GORDON throw roll bar padding out a few years back, haven't seen Kyle do it.
No sponsors=no money=no teams=NO NASCAR!
My suggestion on cheating...A team caught cheating loses all points and prize money for that race. If they won they keep the win, but get no points or money. Also, the win will not qualify them for the All-Star race or any winner's circle contingency money.
I'm with you Han, take the points and prize money.
I too remember Robbie with the roll cage foam, but I can't remember Kyle throwing his glove either. I Googled it, and got him throwing his HANS @ Mears and throwing his glove in kansas Oct. 07 AFTER the rain delay and AFTER he was wrecked. They also came up with referances of boxing gloves for Kyle and Jr. Anyway if anyone knows when he threw out a glove to bring out the caution I would like to know too.
Come on guys, want to use my time warp machine? How many points and money did you just take away from Every Driver in Nascar History? Or,is this just a Hendrick thing?
x2...No one is saying to go back and penalize teams. It is OK to recall past events, isn't it? We are discussing what we would like to see in the future. Does your time machine go into the future? Penalties would be the same for every team not just HMS. Sheesh.
First, I agree that even though they shouldn't be, professional athletes are looked upon as role models. However, it seems to me there is something very different about steroid abuse to gain an on-field advantage (while destroying one's health) and working in the gray or even not so gray areas of racing. I've followed racing since the early 1950's and the old axiom still applies at all forms of racing from the local bull rings to the highest levels of the sport - if you ain't cheatin', you ain't competin'
Does the "everyone does it" argument make it right? Hardly BUT it is and always has been part of the culture of automotive competition. I have no problem with penalties when someone is caught but I sure don't think Knaus or Zippy or any crew chief should be crucified for doing what he is paid extremely well to do - put the most competitive car he can on the track without getting caught tweaking, bending, or outright breaking the rules. I'd sure as heck want Knaus as my crew chief if I owned a Cup car. Cup officials have tons of safequards and checks and balances but crew chiefs are supposed to find advantages no one else thought of yet and that haven't been specifically outlawed yet. If they don't, they won't keep their job. I say more power to the best of them for being creative enough to stay ahead of the inspectors, even if only for a race or two.
Last edited by HoosierRacer13 on May 19th at 8:05 AM.
Sorry guys, I cant remember what race it was with Kyle and the glove, I'll try to find it. And I could be wrong (It has happened before..lol) and if so I'll be happy to take it back.
Hanny - I like your suggestion, it does ultimately serve the same purpose as parking them for the race. Then the sponsors still get their precious airtime. The no money= thing was just an illustration..lol.
Pea - I love you. I know you're a HMS fan but it was not an attack towards you personally and it's great you're here to give your opinion, as I respect you immensely. Nothing I say about any team at any time is to reflect upon their fans.
Not its not an HMS thing although they get caught more than most. There's Mikey with his 'jet fuel' and Carl with the gas lid thingy. All of them at one time or another have been bad little boys.
I was ranting and wont appologize for it, but I love the debate!
Your Hoosierness: Thank you for saying much more clearly than I what I meant when I said NASCAR has been built on Crew Chiefs pushing the limits. Thats true. Im just wondering, in this day and age, where the line is.
And yes like Hanny says, I used illustrations from the past (as I dont yet have my crystal ball working) to see what people thought should go down in the future. No time warping please...lol.
SK,
Just to keep the record straight - like when has that EVER happended? - with Carl it was an oil cover thingy rather than a gas lid thingy. You are welcome.
BTW, if you saw any of the coverage from the Indy 500 qualifications yesterday, it was a gas lid thingy that did Anthony Joseph Foyt IV in when it flew off and dumped fuel on his rear tires and caught on fire when it hit his headers. Thankfully he walked away from the ensuing fireball and his sudden stop - those concrete walls are so unforgiving.
SweetK- I think your anger at the crew chiefs is misplaced. As Hoosier says, they are paid big bucks to figure out where the grey areas are and get the advantages. Your complaint should sit squarely on NASCARs shoulders because it is their fault the rules are so unclear and it is up to them to consistently police the competition. I would want Knaus on my pit box any day of the week.
I can assure you, there are no under the table bribes happening in the sport, the other teams monitor each other all the time esp. going thru inspection. When Gordon was parked next to Kurt in the garages Kurt spent a good 5 min walking around Jeff's car checking it out...I found that pretty amusing!
Kristen,
That walking through the pits looking at competitors' stuff happens at all levels too. You'd be surprise what you can learn. Even when my boys ran go-karts at the national level with the World Karting Association, we used to put tape over the tire compound code on all four tires so our competitors wouldn't know what we were running, lol. There are other things guys try to disguise to throw their competition off as well. GREAT sport isn't it.
klv - Im not really angry at the crew chiefs, its all of them with NASCAR has pushed them in a corner and I realize that. I guess I should have been more clear, but explaining it all would have led to a blog the size of War & Peace and ya'll would have never made it past Chpt One...lol.
The bribe thing with Hendrick was tongue in cheek. I should have said so I guess. I keep forgetting ya'll dont know me that well yet.
LOL at the guys checkin each other's cars. Inspections on thier own. I've never been back there so thanks for sharing how it is!
Sweet...I was just pulling your TAIL! I am harmless! I was just giving you a hard time, with some doggy humor! Hang in there, the peafowl will be watching!!!
Hanahan....If cheating was not ubiquitous, it would be far easier to eradicate. I do believe all were penalized accordingly.
My time machine does not go forward, I was caught
using it to help Chad, that is how Jimmie, won two in a row. I have learned my lesson and now walk the straight and narrow. Please, understand love causes people to do strange things! (Smile)
Specifically about NASCAR I haven't seen enough races yet to have an opinion but this is a good blog for a new person to watch for certain things so I like it for that.
Generally I agree with you about the cheating never being punished until after they are filthy rich being wrong. Like OJ Mayo taking money while in high school and college, all the boys I know say so what he's rich now. Something needs to be done.
I was responding on what to do if they get caught. Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with cheating. Just ask any of my former girlfriends. >(X^)>
LMAO Hanny - you're a bad bad boy arent you? LOL Thats why I specified at the beginning it wasnt about relationships. Didnt want your ex's hunting you down!! Hee Hee.
Puffin...I dunno man, but keep puffin and maybe share a lil..It may all start to make more sense!
Nique - Glad you liked it. And thanks for bringing up the non NASCAR side.
kena, this is a great topic. I have a couple of statements and a question. CHEAT is to act dishonestly or unfairly in order to win some profit or advantage; to trick, to deceive, to deprive by deceit. INGENUITY is cleverness, imagination, inventiveness. Where do you (you collectively and not you specifically) draw the line in the sand between the two? Just asking because I honestly don't know.
Good question volfan69 and from an idealistic standpoint it would be nice to say that most of the penalties for "cheating" are due to ingenuity pushed too far for Cup officials i.e. when JJ and JG had cars that fit the template but didn't meet with NASCAR's approval. To me that was ingenuity. Mikey running an illegal fuel additive, down right cheating. BUT, in reality I still believe every crew chief does some intentional things from time to time they KNOW are dishonest, unfair, and cheating NOT just a gray area attempt to gain an advantage. Cheating is just a part of the culture of racing and ALWAYS will be which is why Cup inspectors earn their paychecks. I have no problem with penalties being enforced but no one will ever stop the CHEATING or the ingenuity completely.
Sweetkena - I had to stop watching it bothered me so much, knowing that the bottom line is what really runs the show, not fairness, or equity or equality. Over the years, NASCAR, and really any other professional sports body, have been accused of unequally applying their own rules. This manipulation is what causes controversy and controversy sells tickets. Unfair? You bet...gonna stop? Not ever. Watch the LMAO SwK...you know when you lost it last week we have the whole FOX nation looking for it!! Tequila?
HR13, is it the end of the world? I agree with you again!LOL Thanks, as always, for your honest answer. Idealistic...me? No, I'm your idol. (Vol smiles!)
This topic gives me a headache everytime it comes up. I do wish NASCAR was a little more like ALMS and Grand Am, when it comes to applying the competition rules. Oh my head....
volfan69,
I was NOT trying to imply that you are being idealistic. You simply asked a question. Ideally it would be great if the only cheating was inadvertent, due only to attempts at ingenuity. I just know better.
You are correct, however, that I idolize you. Who told you?
CR, sorry for the headache. I hope it gets better. Have a strong drink, put your feet up and call me in the morning.
HR13, I'm a "hot" idol, I'm a "burning" idol.LOL
As I have stated before in my complete investigation of NASCAR practices and operations, There is no conspiracies or favoritism of any team in NASCAR.
I wold also like to thank the NASCAR officials for the wonderful all expense paid trip to Can Cun last year during my investigation.
As far as the rule book goes, the only rule I have found is " An action detrimental to the sport of racing" does encompass many areas deemed as an infraction but it is not conclusive as yet what that is.
In racing you have to push the envelope to maintain a competitive edge. It is then up to NASCAR to determine if it is actually an infraction.
Don't mess with the body dimensions and shape.
Don't mess with the shocks. Keep the engine and specs. to a specified displacement. After that is is fair game unless NASCAR determines other wise.
It is not cheating at all. It is seeking an edge in a highly competitive sport. Other than a couple hot heads in this sport, all the drivers can safely be considered role models for our children.
Certainly something that can't be said in any other sport.
Thanks guys for all the great comments. Ya'll gave me lots to think about which was the whole point in the first place. Thanks also for not choppin my head off for bringing up a touchy subject!
Now lets head to frothy's and all have ourselves some ale on me!!
photogr,
Good comments but you left out one total no-no. Cheating with the fuel cell capacity, but sometimes you do have to wonder how some teams can consistently be just as fast as their competitors but run an extra 2-3 laps between fuel stops. Hmmm??? I know the officials look for anything and everything in that area but some teams still seem to get more out of a tank of gas without sacrificing horsepower. They may be sitting on a secret worth multi-millions.
Last edited by HoosierRacer13 on May 20th at 6:04 AM.
Kena thanks for the great blog, sure got folks to thinking!
Volfan, loved your inquirey about where do you draw the line in the sand!
Are they innovators or cheaters? Did they know they were breaking the rules and do it anyway or were they pushing the edge. Great thread and thanks to all of the contributers.
Kena we might be approaching the length of war and peace. Keep up the great work!
I think with cheating you have intent, versus honest errors or mistakes. In other words, it cannot be cheating if, by accident you gain an advantage. If someone sets out to defeat the rules and in so doing gains an advantage, that is cheating. Pushing the gray areas is only cheating when there is a ruling...and sometimes, the gray areas become part of a new rule later. You cannot go back then and make cheaters out of those who pushed and bent the newer rules. This is where most crew chiefs seem to reside. The 99 car did not intend to leave the cover off the oil tank, or to be caught with the cover off. Yes they gained a perfomance advantage, but they intended to have the cover secured at the finish...soooo there is the gray area there... Whodunit when and why for how long...and who ta blame?
I'm 36, single and a professional. I love writing, love to blog and am a huge huge fan of NASCAR. If ya cant already tell by the prevailing orange theme...Smoke 's the man! But I like a lot of other drivers and some of their fans! If you're passionate about this sport then let's get at it! I'm here to have fun, have some great debates and to learn. I'm not interested in 'Hooking up", nor am I interested in slinging insults with a bunch of haters. I'f thats your thing then just please move along. Otherwise stick around and lets talk NASCAR!
Let's go back to Infineon last year shall we? JG and JJ parked for practice and qualifying...better but still not enough in my opinion. The 100 point thing is getting better too but is it still enough??
That’s scary.
