After the first 6 weeks of the NFL season I selected the best 6 games starts in NFL history. If you did not catch the first article the link is as follows:
In that article I promised that if the Patriots were to go 12-0 or 11-1, I would take a look back at the best 12 game stretches in NFL history. My criteria in the previous article were limited to teams that played in the Super Bowl era. I believe there have been about 45 (6-0) starts in NFL history. That was the best way to narrow (6-0) starts to a manageable amount. There would have been too many teams to discuss had I gone further back than the Super Bowl era.
For purposes of this debate I will go back to 1961. The reason I decided to do that is 1) There are a lot fewer 11-1 and 12-0 starts than 6-0 starts. 2) That was the first year of the 14 game schedule. It really doesn’t make sense to look at 12-0 or 11-1 starts prior to that, because that encompassed the entire regular season. 3) The main teams we are omitting from the discussion if we stop at 1961 are the 1929 Green Bay Packers, which went 12-0-1 and the 1934 Bears who went 13-0, but lost in the NFL Championship Game. I don’t think a lot of people are going to be too terribly upset if I don’t look at those teams. 4) There was a team prior to the Super Bowl era that I wanted to include in this discussion. The 1962 Green Bay Packers are considered an all time great team and deserve consideration in this argument.
11-1 or 12-0 really isn’t that different to me. I don’t view the 17-0 Dolphins as the best team in the NFL. There are a number of teams I feel were better even though they lost a few games. While 12-0 definitely gives a team an advantage over an 11-1 team, this is just as much about dominance over the opposition as overall record. However wins are still very important and if we are only looking at the regular season, I am not going to look at 10-2 or 9-3 teams.
First, let’s start with the case for the 2007 Patriots: The Patriots have been an offensive juggernaut that the league has never seen. Tom Brady already has 41 touchdown passes. Randy Moss has 17 touchdown receptions. Both are chasing NFL single season records. The 07 Patriots have scored over 48 points four times and have over 30 points in 10 of their 12 contest. Only 3 games have been decided by single digits. The Patriots have outscored the opposition 469-209. Their 260 point scoring differential is more than 16 of the 32 NFL teams have scored on their own. Until recent weeks it was more than all but 4 teams in the NFL. Their 469 points put them on pace for 625 points or 70 points more than the NFL record held by the 1998 Vikings. They are challenging the 38.8 points per game put up by the 1950 Los Angles Rams. The defense is not dominant, but is overlook because of the gaudy numbers put up by the offense. The defense is allowing only 209 points which ranks 5th in the league. They rank 6th in yards allowed. They have allowed 14 points or less 5 out of 12 games. It has been a truly dominant season by the Patriots, although they have slowed in recent weeks. They won back-to-back 3 point games against 5-7 Philadelphia and 4-8 Baltimore. These teams played with backup quarterbacks in those games.
The criteria for making the list were very simple. The team had to start either 12-0 or 11-1. Similar to the 6-0 start winning the Super Bowl or playoff success has nothing to do with the argument. This is strictly looking at the regular season. If the Patriots win the Super Bowl, I’ll go back and take a look at their place among the all time champions. Here are the twelve best (12-0) or (11-1) teams that I narrowed in on since 1961.
1962 Green Bay Packers (11-1) – This is arguably the best single season team in the history of the NFL. The Green Bay Packers started the season 10-1 and their only blemish was to an 11-3 Detroit team that beat them 26-14 on Thanksgiving Day. The Packers finished the season leading the league in scoring with 415 points and points allowed with only 148 points. Both totals led the league. In their first 12 games they outscored the opposition 364-110. Six of their twelve victories were by 25 plus points. The Patriots have only 3 such victories, although two of the Patriots victories were by 24 points. The Packers had 35 rushing touchdowns that season and Bart Starr led a passing attack that was conservative but effective. This may be the most impressive combination of running the ball and defense that the league has ever seen. The 1972 Dolphins are the only other team in that conversation. The Patriots have obviously had the better offensive start. The Packers averaged 30.3 ppg in their 12 game start to the Patriots 39.1. However, the defense allowed only 9.2 ppg to the Patriots 17.1 points per game. That gives the Packers a 21.2 scoring margin to the Patriots 21.7. The Packers and Patriots both had 3 games decided by less than 10 points. The Packers were 2-1 in such contest. However, the Lions were 11-3 that season. They were one of the top 3 teams in the NFL. The Colts had Johnny Unitas and were still a very talented team. The Eagles and Ravens played to within 3 points with their backup QB. I would say that while the Patriots have had the better offensive start, the 1962 Packers were more dominating overall in their start. Advantage: 1962 Packers
1968 Baltimore Colts (11-1) – The Colts were a team that’s dominance is often overlooked due to their loss to the NY Jets in Super Bowl III. They outscored their opponents 358 to 117. That comes out to 20.1 points per game, which is also very close to the 2007 Patriots. The Colts also had 5 games that they won by 25 points or more. Their only loss was a 10 point loss to the Cleveland Browns, who they later beat 34-0 in the title game. The key for me is the Colts were a team that got better after their 6-0 start. In games 7 through 12, the Colts pitched 3 shutouts. They allowed 29 points in 6 games. The Patriots have 3 games in their last 4 decided by 4 points or less. They have 3 games where their offense has been held under 30 points. While the defensive rules are a lot different today, so are the offensive rules. While the 1968 Colts would have allowed more points with the 2007 rules, they also would have scored more. I would give a slight advantage to the Baltimore Colts. Advantage: 1968 Colts
1969 Minnesota Vikings (11-1) – After losing their opener by one point, the Vikings rattled off 12 consecutive wins before losing their season finale. They outscored the opposition 366-116. This team similar to the 68 Colts is often overlooked as a dominant team due to their Super Bowl loss to Kansas City. They had 5 wins by more than 25 points. They beat a Cleveland Browns team 51-3 that they would later beat 27-7 in the NFC Championship Game. They finished the season both first in scoring and points allowed. Couple thins of note. 1) In the Vikings favor they had 3 games where they scored over 50 points. The Patriots this year only have two. However the Vikings led the league with 333 points in 14 games. There are 4 teams that have that many points already and the Green Bay Packers have 323. 2) In the Vikings disadvantage, the Giants beat the Vikings in the opener, but finished 6-8 on the season. The Vikings loss is not as strong as the 62 Packers or the 68 Colts. 2) The Vikings don’t have that signature stat or signature streak. The Patriots have scored over 30 points in 10 of their 12 contests. They have 24 and 27 in the other 2 games. Brady has 41 touchdown passes. Moss has 17 touchdown catches. The 62 Packers had 35 rushing touchdowns in 14 games. They opened the first 4 games of the season allowing 14 points and had 2 shutouts. Then they had another 3 game stretch where they allowed 13 points. The Colts had a 6 game stretch where they allowed 29 points. The Vikings don’t have that. They have two shutouts. They have 5 games where they allowed under 10 points. They had a 4 game stretch where they won 139-24. However, there was a 9-7 win in the middle of that against a Packer team that would finish 8-6. They scored 50-points on 3 occasions, but had no 40 point games and only two 30-point games. That means they had 7 games where they scored under 30 points. I understand this is before the Live Ball Era. However, this is a team I would have an easier time putting above the Patriots if they had a 6 game stretch or a stat line where you were left shaking your head. When you are evaluating 12-0 vs. 11-0, you are splitting hairs. I really went back and forth with this. Based on the loss to the 6-8 Giants in the opener and the overall consistency, I would go with the Patriots by the slightest of margins. Advantage: 2007 Patriots
1972 Miami Dolphins (12-0) – The team that the Patriots are chasing also finished the season first in scoring and first in points allowed. The Dolphins outscored their opponents 346-158, or by 15.7 points per game. This is a full touchdown behind the Patriots. The Dolphins had only one win by more than 25 points. Five of their games were decided by 10 points or less. The schedule was among the easiest in the history of the NFL with opponents winning less than 40% of their regular season games. The numbers just don’t add up to give this team the nod over the Patriots. Advantage: 2007 Patriots
1984 San Francisco 49ers (11-1) – The 49ers were the team of the 80s, but they just don’t translate into this particular argument. The 1984 team outscored the opposition 335 to 184 or by 12.6 points per game. I didn’t even bother to list the 1990 49ers as they had an even lower margin of 7.9. The 1989 49ers are one of the all time great teams the Patriots will be stacked against should they win the Super Bowl. They were 10-2 and do not qualify. The numbers just aren’t close enough to even make an argument. Advantage: 2007 Patriots
1985 Chicago Bears (12-0) – The 1985 Bears are among the best teams in the history of the NFL. Their 12 game start to the 1985 season was unprecedented. They outscored their opponents 359-127 or by 19.3 points per game. This was another team that got better from games 7-12. They outscored their opponents 170 to 29 compared to the Patriots 239 to 117. While the Patriots had two 50-point games the Bears pitched consecutive shutouts and allowed 3 points in 3 weeks. The Bears and Patriots are tied with three 25 point plus victories in their first 12 games. However, the 85 Bears allowed 10 points or less in 8 of the 12 games. This comes down to whether great defense impresses you or great offense. I am of the belief that it is easier to score than defend. I would point to the fact that the Bears finished the season 2nd in points scored and 1st in points allowed. The Patriots are 1st in points scored and 5th in points allowed. Advantage: 1985 Bears
1991 Washington Redskins (11-1) – I think the fact that more people don’t talk about this team as an all time great is a joke. I believe that this team and the 1996 Packers are the two most overlooked single season dominant teams in the history of the NFL. The Redskins outscored their opposition 382 to 163 or by an average of 18.3 points per game for the first 12 games of the season. They scored over 30 points 7 times in their first 12 games. Their only blemish was to the Cowboys by 3 points in week 12. The Cowboys were an 11-5 team that season that would begin a run of 3 Super Bowls in 4 years the following season. The Skins allowed less than 14 points 7 times in their first 12 games. Three of those were shutouts posted in the first 6 weeks of the season. Most impressively were the scores they beat other playoff teams by. They are one of only two champions to play 11 games against teams with 10 plus victories including playoffs. In their first 12 games the Skins had a 45-0 victory over the NFC runner up Detroit Lions and a 56-17 victory over Atlanta; a team they played in the second round of the playoffs. I still give an advantage in the first 12 games to the Patriots. The Patriots have a slightly better record, are over 3 points better in margin of victory, and have two signature wins over 11-1 Dallas and 10-2 Indianapolis. People can talk about the recent close victories the Patriots have had, but the Skins had 4 games decided by 4 points or less in their 11-1 start as well, including their loss to Dallas. Advantage: 2007 Patriots
1996 Denver Broncos (11-1) & 1998 Denver Broncos (12-0) – The 1996 Broncos raced out of the gate 11-1 before Mike Shanahan decided to rest all his players for a month. The Broncos never really recovered from the 41-6 stomping the Packers gave them in Week 15. The result of the resting strategy was 3 losses in their last 4 games, including their first playoff game to (9-7) Jacksonville. This team outscored the opposition 317 to 192 or by 10.4 points per game. They were impressive, but not good enough to pass the other teams on this list. In 1998 Mike Shanahan handled the fast start much better and the result was a second consecutive Super Bowl ring. This team outscored the opposition 401 to 206 or by 16.25 points per game. This team definitely ran the ball better than the 2007 Patriots. However, the defenses are very comparable and you just can’t over look a 68-point advantage in the scoring department and 6 point advantage in margin of victory. Advantage: 2007 Patriots
1998 MinnesotaVikings (11-1) – As good as the Vikings offense was that season, the defense just doesn’t measure up. The Patriots have outscored the Vikings by 74 points through 12 games and the 240 points the Vikings allowed is 31 points more than the Patriots. The result is a 21.7 ppg victory margin to only 12.8. The Vikings were explosive, but the Patriots have a much stronger defense and are a more balanced team on offense. They are a much better version of the 1998 Minnesota Vikings. Advantage: 2007 Patriots
2004 Pittsburgh Steelers (11-1) – Now we are starting to get to some of the more recent teams. This particular debate doesn’t take long. The Steelers only outscored the opposition 273 to 184 or by 7.4 points per game. Advantage: 2007 Patriots
2005 Indianapolis Colts (12-0) – The Colts outscored the opposition 366 to 162 or by 17.0 points per game. That gets the Colts into the debate. The Colts had only two 25 plus point victories. The Colts had an identity crisis that season. The first 5 games featured an offense that averaged 21.2 ppg and gave up only 5.8 points per game. Their next 7 games saw the averages change to 37.1 ppg scored and 19.0 points per game allowed. That shift in strength hurts them. The Colts ranked 2nd in both points scored and points allowed. However, this team is similar to the 1969 Vikings in that the individual scores don’t demonstrate the overall strengths as well as the cumulative stats. The 85 Bears are synonymous with defensive dominance. The Patriots are developing that on the offensive side. The 05 Colts simply don’t have that. Was this a great offensive or great defensive team? They allowed under 10 points 6 times, but gave up 20 points or more 4 times. They scored over 30 points 7 times, but scored under 14 points twice. I think the Colts had a fantastic start and it was a shame that the suicide of Tony Dungy’s son really put a dark cloud over what should have been a celebrated season. Anyone that thinks that tragedy didn’t affect this team is kidding himself or herself. I give the advantage to the Patriots based on scoring margin and overall consistency in their start. Advantage 2007 Patriots
2007 Dallas Cowboys (11-1) – This is not one of the twelve best teams since 1961. I included the Cowboys just so people can see how this team stacks up with some of the other great starts. The Cowboys have outscored their opposition 395-248 or by 12.25 points per game. They have two victories by 25 plus points. Their only loss is to an undefeated Patriots team. If you take that game out of the occasion, they have a victory margin of 14 points per game. The Cowboys have scored about as many points as the 1998 Vikings through 12 games. They have a comparable defense. They have a higher victory margin that the 2004 Steelers and 1990 49ers. They are comparable in that department to the 1984 49ers. While they obviously are not on the same level as the 2007 Patriots or the other top teams on the list, they are having a very nice season that compares favorably to some other dominant squads. Advantage: 2007 Patriots
So there you have it. Here is how I would rank the best 12 game starts in the NFL since 1961:
1) 1985 Chicago Bears (12-0): Outscored their opponents 359-117. Average Margin of Victory 19.3 points per game, 8 of 12 games allowed 10 points or less including 3 points allowed in a 3-week span.
2) 1962 Green Bay Packers (11-1): Outscored their opponents 364-110. Average Margin of Victory 21.2 points per game, 6 victories of 25 plus points, and 9 of 12 by double digits.
3) 1968 Baltimore Colts (11-1): Outscored their opponents 358-117. Average Margin of Victory 20.1 points per game, 5 victories of 25 plus points, 29 points allowed in games 7 through 12.
4) 2007 New England Patriots (12-0): Outscored their opponents 469-209. Average Margin of Victory 21.7 points per game, 10 of 12 games scored 30 points or more including 4 games with 48 plus points.
5) 1969 Minnesota Vikings (11-1): Outscored their opponents 366-116. Average Margin of Victory 20.8 points per game, 5 victories of 25 plus points, 3 games with more than 50 points scored.
Honorable Mention: 1991 Washington Redskins (11-1)
What are your thoughts? Have the Patriots had the best 12 game start to a season in NFL history? Is there a team you think I ranked too high? Too low? Not at all? Let me know your thoughts.
Street Cred
What the Pats are doing though not unprcedented is making the rest of the NFL sit up and take notice. I'd certainly like top think however that their thoughts are beyond the unbeaten regular season and more to do with the playoffs. As that's where things'll really being to count. A loss there and you pack up and go home. A loss at this juncture in the season doesn't make 'em any less human. The season that Brady and Moss are having is exceptional to say the least. And the defense is by no means to be left of that topic either. As they've done what they've had to do when it counted the most.
See my latest post titled What's A Yard Sale Or Even A Fire Sale Between Friends ? Let me know what you think as to the merits of the piece ?
in my view, i dont care if you hate or love a team!!! if they continue to win by the most lopsided win or just win by the skin of thier teeth!!! a win is a win!!!! thats what gets us as sports nuts crazy, when you hate a team so much!!! is how can they do this??? in the pac-8 and then later in the pac-10 UCLA in basketball year after year could do this!! why i guess it was john woodens magic that was the answer!!! and dispite being a great coach!!!!
I think that you need to take into account the rules changes that have helped the teams of today. If the teams of the past had the same rules, I believe they would be even greater then the teams of today. They were better TEAMS.
Put the 2007 NE team in the 70's when the pass defense could hold till the ball was in the air, and the QB could be thrown around like a rag doll, and this would change NE numbers big time. Moss would be crying every down and would revert to the player he was in Oakland. Let Belicheck try to run up the score and see how the opposing teams would respone. Someone on NE will be carted off, bank on it.
The way the game was played in the 70's is the way the game should be played. Aggressive and very violent.
ToPhatal - Thank you, and I agree with those thoughts. I consider the 13-3 96 Packers to be an all time great team. The body of work and the postseason success are much more important than a difference in one or two regular season games.
KellyScott - Thank you, and I agree. The Patriots hating is out of hand. People need to start acknowledge this team is playing great and stop coming up with reasons why they shouldn't be given credit.
bosox61 - Thanks for the post. My opinion isn't the only one that counts. People can argue the 07 Patriots have had the best start and many are doing that. The problem is that those same people will pick a new team for that honor in 3 years. I like to let things stand the test of time. The fact you remember how great those 85 Bears were 20 years later is proof of how great they were.
QCisco - Good Points. I'm sure that people that watched the game in the 30s and 40s would argue the same thing about that weak 70s ball that you are talking about.
The game has evoloved in a way that each decade gives more advantages to the offense and less to the defense. I agree with you 100%. Randy Moss would not have 17 touchdowns in 12 games in the 1970s style of ball.
That's why I don't look at dominance as taking the 2007 Patriots and putting them on a filed to face the 85 Bears or 62 Packers. For one thing Ben Watson would have been an offensive lineman in the 60s. What I look at is how the 1962 Packers dominated 1962. How the 85 Bears dominated 85. How the 07 Patriots dominated 07.
When you look at it in those terms, I believe the Patriots have done the 4th best job since 1961. What they are doing in this free agency offensive dominated era is absolutely amazing.
Last edited by StreetCred on December 6th at 2:47 PM.
StreetCred - I remember your first post and am glad you remembered to do it again after 12. Great analytical work. As a Cowboys fan, the irony about this year's team is that out of all of the great Cowboys' teams....and we know there are alot, this is the first team to go 11-1 and perhaps 12-1. But as you know, the best record in the regular season does not equate to SB Championships. It will be interesting to watch. If the Pats do not win it all, they will be an afterthought. Same goes for this Cowboy's team, which is a haunting memory of the Dallas Mavericks of last year having the best record in franchise history and the league and going out in the first round to the lowest seed GS.
Last edited by Towelboy on December 6th at 9:33 PM.
Thanks for the honorable mention of the 2004 Steelers, If that team had won the AFC Championship, then the SB, we might be talking about a second dynasty for them instead of the Pats being the best now.
As for this year, the Pats should have had to forfiet the first game if there was proof of impropriety. To fine money and 1 of two draft pics is a joke, no real incentive not to cheat! pass a hat in the locker room they can raise $100,000 from pocket change!
Towelboy - Thanks for the post. With everything being so top heavy this season, there will be lot of disappointed teams. The Bucs, Colts, Cowboys, Packers, Pats, Seahawks, and Steelers are all in the running to win 12 games. I remember in 02 when Oakland had the #1 seed at 11-5. Only one of those squads will win the SB. That is going to mean a lot dissapointment for the teams that don't.
Netsteeler - Thanks for the post. The 2004 season was definatley a turning point. Steelers may have 2 rings and Patriots only 2 rings if that AFC Championship game turns out differently.
I understand where you are coming from. The NFL is not going to set a prescedent where the front office is going to change results of games based on factors not on the field. Do you really want the NFL to turn into figure skating? Give two sets of gold medals because the judge was corrupt? Maybe they can become like the NCAA. The Fab 5 never went to 2 final fours even though the entire world remembers them playing there.
While it may be fun for non Patriot fans to think about the idea of the Patriots havign to forfiet a game, I think it sets a bad precsedent. The draft picks hurt way more than the loss in the whole scheme of things. The Jets are so bad and the Patriots would get homefield anyway; I think they would rather have their draft pick back.
I still think that whole Spygate is a lot to do about nothing, but that is just my opinion.
I agree with your observation about the '91 Redskins. They were very dominant in ALL 3 phases and wiped out teams w/o the appearance of running up the score (except for the Falcons, who kept blitzing, so Rypien kept throwing deep). The '85 Bears were/are more dominant than this Pats team, solely because their defense was on an unprecedented 3 year run. They smothered and demoralized teams on defense and knocked the snot out of them on offense. Didn't see the '62 Packers or the '68 Colts but the film of those teams would suggest they were dominant.
I know that you are measuring the best 12 game starts here, but can't go without saying that the 1978 Steelers would have beaten every one of these teams. Sorry, couldn't resist...
Moseby - If the Patriots win the Super Bowl and we start looking at the all time great teams, I have a feeling the 1978 Steelers will be in that discussion.
Also, agree with you on the '96 Packers. Defense was very stout and their running game was very underrated. A couple of things, I believe hurt their perception as a "dominant or great team". First, they were coming into their own during the Cowboys "dynasty". Aikman, Smith & Irvin were still quite early in their careers and the Cowboys got the most publicity. But they never won another SB. The 49ers were still on their run of consecutive years of making the playoffs and dominating the NFC West. They were a threat every year. Second, I believe the Packers losing to Denver in the SB the next year hurt their perception. Even though they dominated the NFC, that loss to a wild card team (although an excellent team) kind of overshadowed their accomplishment from the year before. Then Denver went back-to-back. It seems as though to be considered dominant at that point you had to stand up to Dallas/Denver as a multiple SB winner to get the respect. The parallel I draw is the 1982-83 Redskins. An underdog in the strike season of '82, they were a DOMINANT team in 1983. Lost their 2 regular season games by 1 point apiece, won 10 straight, set the record for points scored and +/- turnover margin, destroyed the Rams and beat an excellent SF team in the NFC Championship. But the debacle in the SB vs. Raiders took the complete luster off their 2 year accomplishment. To this day many of the 1980's Redskins claim 1983 as their best team, even above the '91 champion.
Last edited by moseby on December 7th at 10:51 AM.
Moseby - I agree with that. Most of the highly revered teams have multiple and consecutive rings. But what happened in 97 shouldn't affect the 96 Packers, just like what happened in 1986 doesn't affect the 85 Bears. Here are some things I look at when comparing the two squads:
1) The 96 Packers were the #1 scoring offense and #1 scoring defense. Bears were #2 & 1. Both teams scored 456 points.
2) The 96 Packers won 7 games by 25+ points, an NFL record. The Bears won 3 such games.
3) The Bears threw 16 touchdowns that season. Favre had 39 touchdown passes. Bears running backs had 20 touchdowns to the Packers 14 touchdowns.
4) For as good a defense as the 85 Bears had, the 96 Packers only allowed 12 points more on their season. The Packers just didn't have the shutouts. The Packers allowed 10 points or fewer point 9 times. The Bears did that 11 times.
5) Despite all those above numbers, Desmond Howard was the MVP of the playoffs, and rightfully so. He changed field position in a way few have ever done for one season.
The problem is that when the NFL Network did America's Game, they ranked the 96 Packers as the 14th best Super Bowl Champion and the 85 Bears as the 2nd. That was a joke. In my opinion the defenses were comparable with a slight edge to the Bears. Packers had a much better offense and better special teams.
96 Packers can make the case as the greatest single season team in the history of the NFL. Yet many people treat them like a middle of the pack Super Bowl Champion.
Mosby - I also thought that was interesting what you said about the 83 Skins. That is true with a lot of great teams. Many people felt the 76 Steelers were actually the best of all the Steelers teams. The 2005 Colts were better than the 06 Colts. The 2004 Steelers were better than the 05 Steelers. The 1996 Broncos were better than the 1997 version that won it all.
Sometimes your best team doesn't deliver the title. There is a lot that goes into being a Super Bowl Champion.
Street Cred
I see the likes of Madden, Cowher , Green and Jimmy Johnson are chimin' with how they believe that the Pats can be beat. I wonder if Tomlin will be willing to listen to what they've got to say ? I doubt that one their best days they'd be able to outcoach Belichek and win against this team.
But we'll just to wait and see what materializes at the end of the game by way of the result.
tophatal
Last edited by tophatal on December 7th at 11:27 AM.
Tophatal - The thing that is becoming very apparent is that the Patriots are not very strong in the middle of the field. If your defense can't slow NE enough that the offense can work the middle of the field, I think the Patriots can be beat. That said, stopping that offense is no easy task. There are only a handful of teams that can do that.
Last edited by StreetCred on December 7th at 11:33 AM.
Street Cred
What's surprising about this is their overall resilience. They can basically withstand almost anything that's thrown at them. And they still come right back at ya'. That's what these teams have never seen before and it's become all the more telling over their last couple of games.
Tophatal - Brady is in that same class of Unitas, Bradshaw, Staubach, Montana, Elway, Favre, Manning, etc. You give a guy that is that good enough chances to beat you and he will be more than happy to do it. Brady and Moss are playing at such an elite level right now.
Last edited by StreetCred on December 7th at 11:43 AM.
Street Cred
Not only does he beat you comprehensively but it's become effective right across the board for this team. You just don't teach that coaching as it comes from the respect of the players on that team not wanting to let a teammate down. That's what makes a great team and today in the realms of sports there aren't too many of those around that play the game with that sort of dedication and voracity.
You can certainly argue that the '96 Packers were as dominant as the '85 Bears. However, from the perspective of many (such as the NFL Network) they probably look at the Bears body of work from '84 to '86, regardless of the fairness of a one year ranking. Chicago had their most sacks in 1984 and gave up their least amount of points in 1986, sandwiched around the '85 team. Also, don't think it helped that GB lost 3 games in '96. It would seem that when ranking many of these "great" teams the 2 losses or less seem to get priority over the rest. The 2000 Ravens fly into the face of that argument because of the defensive prowess. But ultimately, in my opinion, while the Ravens were a dominant defense they were NOT a dominant team. Their accomplishment should rank right around, but just above the 2005 Steelers. Agree with the perception of not always the franchise best team wins the SB. However, from a "Steeler" perspective, 1978 is their best TEAM (followed by 1975). The '76 team was the most dominant defense the Steelers ever played. But injuries and inconsistency on offense did them in. They lost twice to a great Oakland 16-1 team, who I think was very underrated. The 2004 Steelers were overacheivers. The defense was #1, but not dominant and it was Rothlisberger's rookie season with Bettis/Staley carrying the load. New England was a better team. Thought 2001 was the best Steeler team of this decade. They were better than Oakland and NE, but couldn't deliver when it mattered most.
Moseby - Great points. I think a lot of it has to do with the record. The Bears did go 15-1 and the Packers did go 13-3. That is big. Packers had a better 5 year run than the Bears did. Were in 3 conference championships and made one more Super Bowl.
Again when you watch these teams week in and week out, you have a greater appreciation for them. I watched every game the 96 Packers played, where I can't say the same about any of the other teams.
The one thing I would say about the 96 Packers is that 2 of those 3 losses had nothing to do with the talent of that squad. Brooks, Freeman, and Chumura were all hurt at the same time. They had about a 3-4 week stretch where they went from scoring 35 pts per game to 10 pts per game, becuase they couldn't do anything on offense. They had no one to throw the ball to.
When they signed Rison and the other players other than Brooks got back, the rest was history. They went on the same tear as before. If you take out that 4 game chunk where all their receivers were hurt, they beat teams by a combined score of 389-137 or by 21.0 points per game. In my opinion, when they were healthy they were the 2007 Patriots offense combined with the 85 Bears defense. They were that good.
Would of, could of, should have. I know. There are hundreds of teams that could do the same thing for their seasons. All I know is that as a Packer fan I feel injuries robbed that team of being the slam dunk best team of all time. As it is, I think the numbers they put up speak for themselves and have them in that conversation.
Last edited by StreetCred on December 7th at 12:34 PM.
Moseby - One other reason the Bears get put that high is the consecutive shutouts in the postseason. That is unheard of and definatley helps as well.
Something to consider. Considering that due to injuries, bad play, or whatever, every team is going to play a few bad games. If you take the 12 best results for the following teams, this is what you have:
1985 Bears - 372-121, margin of victory 20.92
1991 Redskins - 393-132, margin of victory 21.75
1996 Packers - 396-125, margin of victory 22.58
I think that is why Packer fans love that team so much. When they were at full strength, that was as dominant as the league has ever seen.
Yes, agreed. That was a special team. While statistically the 1984 49er team didn't quite stack up, they were very special also. Montana did not have Jerry Rice yet, but he was outstanding that year. Roger Craig was probably one of the best all-around backs in NFL History. They lost by 3, at home to the Steelers on a disputed PI call. I think that team would have beaten the Pats because they had an undersized offensive and defensive lines that were very fast. Ronnie was a big hitter and ball hawk. Their LBs were just as smart as NE's, but more physical. They could play all styles.
Moseby - Packers, Steelers, 49ers, and Cowboys suffer from the same problems. Which team do you take. The 75 Steelers or the 78 Steelers. The 84 49ers or the 89 49ers.
A lot of the all time dominant teams that come up were one year teams. 85 Bears, 91 Skins, 96 Packers, 99 Rams, etc. There aren't all those super good years to cloud together.
There are a couple things you didn't mention in your post. First of all....the salary cap today makes it much harder for teams to excel like New England. The salary cap has indeed done its job.....there is so much more parity in the league now. Considering what New England is doing in this day and age, I feel as if thier accomplishments are greater than some others.
Secondly, New Englands offense has been putting games away by halftime a lot, so thier defense certainly "backs off" a bit. If your up by 30 points going into 4th quarter, your defense definetely doesnt go all out. What is the big deal if they give up a touchdown or two when the lead is unsurmountable? Unfortunately for New England, thier defense has rarely been tested this year regarding "must stop" situations. This may very well come back to haunt them in the playoffs. Also, because of thier huge leads early in games, New England has been milking the clock in 4th quarter. They could of scored more in a few of the games they played. Take the first game against Miami....they scored 42 BY HALFTIME. They only scored 1 TD in second half. Don't you think they could of scored more if they needed to? or even wanted to? This is a great example of why I say NE is NOT running up the score, contrary to popular belief.
I think New England would rank higher based upon your numbers, as thier "margin of victory" could of been much higher if they wanted to play that way. I will however say I believe you got the number one team right. The 1985 bears were dominant. Greatest defensive team of my lifetime. And we all know Defesn
Last edited by Teltek28 on December 9th at 7:19 AM.
Teletek28 - Great comments. I don't agree with your assertion that free agency has necessarily created more parity in the league, THIS year.
5 of the 8 divisions have been clinched this season by week 13. Indy and San Diego have 2 game leads and Pittsburgh has a one game lead. Jacksonville and NY Giants have a 2 game lead on the 7th team in the conference. The league is very top heavy this season. 4 great teams, 4 really good teams, 4 more teams, and a bunch of have nots after that.
The 1962 Packers beat the Eagles 49-0 that season and outgained the Eagles 628-54. I'm sure the other teams on the list had similar dilemas of what to do in some of these blowouts. Each team handles it differently.
I agree with your assertion that the Patriots defense is probably better than what the numbers indicate. However, I think they are closer to a 94 49ers type defense than a 85 Bears or 62 Packers defense. That is still very good. However, the Patriots are clearly an offensive oriented team.
I live in Chicago, but am originally from Wisconsin. I am disgruntled Green Bay Packer fan that now loves the Jets. My favorite sports are Football, Basketball, and Baseball. Hockey and soccer are at the bottom of my list. I would rather watch the Spelling Bee than either of those sports. My favorite athletes of all time are Brett Favre and Michael Jordan. While I like debating many sports, NFL Football is by far my favorite topic to discuss.
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