Last season at this time there was a significant debate as to which goaltender, New Jersey’s Martin Brodeur or Vancouver’s Roberto Luongo, was deserving of winning the Vezina trophy as the NHL’s top goaltender for 2006-07.
Both were neck-and-neck in the single season wins column, as well as for save percentage and goals-against average.
In the end Brodeur would win out, establishing a new single season record for victories by a goaltender with 48 and edging out Luongo in the other important statistical categories to win the Vezina.
This season, Brodeur’s chief rival for the Vezina is San Jose’s Evgeni Nabokov, who currently has two more victories than Brodeur (42 to 40) and could break Brodeur’s single-season record of 48 this season.
However, Nabokov’s current GAA of 2.15 ranks behind Brodeur’s 2.13, placing the latter with the fourth-best GAA of all NHL goalies this season thus far.
Nabokov currently has the edge in shutouts over Brodeur (6 to 4) but the latter’s save percentage of .922 (tying him with Luongo for third best in the league) is considerably better than Nabokov’s .910.
Brodeur’s critics like to claim that he benefits from having a stronger defensive team in front of him and that he doesn’t see as many shots as other NHL goalies, but this season he’s faced the fourth-most shots thus far (1870 and counting) and made the fourth-most saves thus far (1724).
Those figures are considerably more than Nabokov’s 1667 and 1517 respectively, which is more noteworthy when one considers Nabokov has played two more games, plus Brodeur’s given up four less goals thus far (146) than Nabokov (150).
When the Devils signed Kevin Weeks as Brodeur’s backup last summer it was expected that Brodeur would see a little less playing time this season in hopes of giving him some much-needed rest for the playoffs.
Thus far, the veteran Devils netminder has had little rest, playing in 68 games, the fourth-highest total in the league behind Nabokov’s league-leading 70 games.
Brodeur’s 40th victory this season marked the seventh time in his career that he’s won forty or more games in a season, the only goalie in NHL history to achieve that mark. He also notched his 96th career shutout, the second-highest career total of any goaltender, putting him only 7 back of the all-time mark of 103 set by the late, great Terry Sawchuk, a mark once considered unattainable.
He’s also moving closer toward eclipsing Patrick Roy’s record for regular season victories (551), currently sitting with 534, a record that Brodeur should break early next season.
None of this will have any factor on the Vezina race for this season, and Nabokov will remain a serious challenger over the final few games of this season but in the end, I expect Brodeur to win his second straight Vezina trophy and the fourth of his illustrious career.
Well Thadd I doubt it, however he started his career just before this goaltending era started, the best defensive era ever I believe. He may not have them all 15-20 year from now though, and since the number of games in a season has increased so many times almost all records are from the last 25-30 years.
Sakic: That's a good point. He played behind team which pretty much wrote the book on defense. He played behind a team that did nothing but trap trap trap up until this year. It most likely doesn't matter, though... because 20 years from now people aren't likely to remember that.
It's a common misconception that Brodeur "benefitted" from such a strong defensive team in front of him as a means of suggesting he didn't have to face as many shots or make as many saves.
While NHL.com only goes back as far as the 2000-01 season, it's interesting to note the following:
2000-01: Brodeur was 6th in shots against (SA) and saves.
2001-02: 14th in SA, 17th in saves. (Roy was 16th in saves and 17th in SA, Hasek 14th in saves, 15th in SA).
2002-03: 11th in SA, 10th in saves.
2003-04: 6th in both SA and saves.
2005-06: second in both SA and saves.
2006-07: first in saves, second in SA.
So much for "Brodeur benefits from having a stronger defensive team in front of him". In only two seasons in this decade can that argument be made, and even then, not convincingly, for if he benefited from a stronger defensive team, surely the number of SAs and saves should've been much lower.
I respectully disagree Spector, when you say the defence doesn't help. I don't think you are looking deep enough into the numbers. I think the Defensive system does help Brodeur to a certain degree. Trap teams still give up shots on goal generally speaking, but fewer high quality shots are conceded. Such as, shots at the point or more specifically break-aways and power plays. General hockey knowledge would say Trap teams allow very few break aways. and break aways are generally high % scoring chances.
Plus NJ has one of the best PK in the league. In addition, NJ is disciplined, they take the 3rd fewest pen in the league. the ducks for example played 525 more minutes of PK than the Devils this season and Giguere has a better save % than Brodeuer. This means Brodeuer sees fewer power plays, and when he does, the Devils are good at killing them.
Why do you think the Devils have produced the best d-men and two-way players in the league over the last ten years? They have learned and excelled from the d- system.
I'd do think you are right by saying Brodeur is deserving of the Vezina this season and is one of the finest goal tenders of all time. The defence does give Brodeur a slight advantage, and that little adavantage might mean the differnce between a .910 % and a .918 % or a 2.25 and 2.40. And that slight difference might mean the Vezina or the 2nd or third best goalie in the league.
Spects, I didn't mean that Brodeur isn't one of the best goalies ever, nor that he shouldn't win the Vezina (he'd get my vote, same as last year). I mean the current defensive ERA (not his team's system) has contributed to his wins/shutout totals. Another contributing factor of the current era is the number of games played by each team. For decades the seasons were only 40-50 games long, however now Brodeur (and others) play 70+ games a year themselves.
It's the same when looking at scoring records and seeing so many names from the 70s and 80s appearing in so many top 10 lists.
When I said he might not have all the goaltending records 15-20 years from now I mean because future greats will not have the disadvantage of having fewer career games available to them, but not necessarily better than him.
You do now have me wondering now though, so to add to WildGophers posting; A goaltender that plays 70+ games a season should be top 3 in games/minutes played each season, should he not? He should be in the top 5 in shots faced and saves made pretty easily, no?
WildGophers - I do have to ask where you got the information of "the ducks for example played 525 more minutes of PK than the Devils this season" from. Just wondering, because if you went by penalty minutes and just subtracted you'd be off. Of if you went by the difference in times shorthanded and simply multiplied by two you'd also be off. (Course you wouldn't get an odd number either, so just forget that.)
Where, anywhere, did I say that "defence doesn't help"? I never wrote that. What I wrote was that there is a misconception that Brodeur benefits from the Devils strong defense as a means of suggesting he didn't have to face as many shots or make as many saves. That is patently false, as the statistics prove.
Furthermore, I never questioned the Devils defensive system.What I've pointed out is that, strong defensive system or no, Brodeur isn't somehow having a less than easier time because of it compared to his peers.
It certainly doesn't hurt Brodeur that he had a strong defensive team in front of him, but to suggest that that's the sole reason for his impressive career, as more than a few critics have, is absurd.
As for the number of games he appears in, I think that's a tribute to his skill and conditioning that he's still capable of playing so well for so many games, although I do believe that over the past couple of seasons the volume of playing time he's seeing is hurting him in the playoffs, as he is in his late-thirties and the long season could be taking a toll now on him.
"It's a common misconception that Brodeur "benefitted" from such a strong defensive team in front of him"
and
"So much for "Brodeur benefits from having a stronger defensive team in front of him".
Those quotes to me are implying that he has not been helped be an excellent defence. but thats just symantics.
I do believe that the d- system that the devils run does give Brodeur a slight advantage. and just this little advantage can be the differnce between being the best goalie in the league and the 5 th best goalie. look at Loungo @.922% and Giguere @.923. Broudeur is at .921% If Brodeur saw more Penalty kills like Giguere and Loungo his GAA would be higher and save % would be lower.
I'm not doubting that Broduer is one of the best goalies ever, thinking other wise would be foolish. But having a disciplined Defence that Minimizes penalties and break aways, is a competitive advantage.
Sakic19: espn.com => team stats. NJD have 896 collective min. Anah. has 1425 PIM on the season. (I know not all of those compute into a man advantage but its fair to say anah- see alot more penalty kills) and look how good Giguere's numbers are. that approx. 9 more games of full penalty killing. Broduer wouldn't have the same numbers if he had to do the rest of the season under complete penalty kill.
brodeur is in the top 3 of all time great goalies . you dont win all those games just by being lucky .in a one game take all , he'd be in nets for me . hockey rules and good luck to your teams in the playoffs .
My vote would be for Nabokov. He was the reason the Sharks stayed in the hunt the first half of the season, when they couldn't seem to score more than a goal or two per game. Of course, my main wish is to see Nabby hoisting the Cup in June. Individual honors are great, but we all know what the big prize is.
In the next two to three years Brodeur will certainly snag all the regular season goaltending records, but he's going to have a bit of a hike to claim the playoff records from Patrick Roy.
Roy appeared in 247 playoff games and earned 151 wins. Brodeur (going into this season) has appeared in just 164 playoff games and earned 94 wins.
How big a difference are those 57 wins? Let's put this into prospective: the most wins you can get in a playoff year are 16 (which means you've gone all the way and won the Cup). Brodeur will need to win the Stanley Cup three years in a row AND make it to the Eastern Conference Finals a fourth season just to tie Roy. That's a lot of playoff success.
Let's assume for the next few seasons the Devils are good enough to make the playoffs, get past the first round and win a couple of games in the second round. In that case, Brodeur will need to play another decade to catch Roy.
Pending the NHL adding another round in the playoffs, Brodeur having a lot more hockey in him than I suspect, or the Devils becoming a neo-dynasty, I think Roy's playoff marks are pretty safe.
1) Totally agree that Marty deserves the award. The next (bigger) question is IF he also deserves the Hart. Many possess the idea to disqualify goalies from even Hart consideration.
2) As the most important position, it would seem the best goalie is always the most valuable player to his team (as we discussed this past January) http://newfaux.blogspot.com/2008/01 /what-is-mvp.html
3) Does having a Vezina trophy negate the need to allow a goalie to win the MVP award? Can we then not say that the Norris should negate a defensemen (Lidstrom) from consideration?
4) As we wrote back in January, it seems odd that only 6 goalies have won the Hart in the past 82 years. For instance those of us who are old enough to recall the Flyers on the early-mid 70's will attest that as good a leader/player that Bobby Clark was (3 Harts) the Flyers win ZERO Cups without Bernie Parent! (Zero Harts)
I think it's too early to hand the Vezina over to Brodeur just yet, as of right now Nabokov has the edge over Brodeur in every stat other then sv%. Don't forget that Brodeur won the Vezina in '03 and '04 with the "low" sv% of .913 and .917. The winner of the Vezina won't be decided until the very last game these two great netminders play this season imo.
Brodeur is definitely one of the best goaltenders the League's seen in a long time. Tell you what, nothing brings me back like watching the 1994 Devils/Rangers series. Two of the greatest goaltenders I've ever seen live right there.
Deserving? Definitely. Hart candidate? Gotta include him, though Malkin and Ovechkin certainly have to be there too. Perrenial candidate Lidstrom as well.
As for Vezina, look at consistency. Both Nabokov and Brodeur give their teams a chance to win every night, log a ton of minutes, and are practically the same statistically. It's a tough call, and I'm sure glad I don't have to decide just yet.
Let's talk about that defensive nonsense though. Brodeur had the luxury of facing at least as many shots as any other starter in the league most of his career, right? But quality of shots, as was mentioned, that's a little different. I've always felt that any shot that counts as a scoring chance ought to be a goal, and any save made on those shots is robbing the shooter, spectacular or otherwise.
So when we talk about Brodeur facing an equal or greater number of shots as other potential candidates, strong defense has to be considered. Both the Sharks and Devils this year have blocked a bunch of shots, and make it their business to force shooters to the outside. New Jersey's better known for it than San Jose (maybe a bit unfairly), but that's really what every team's supposed to do. Statistically, the ones that go in are from scoring chances. Those outside ones are more the exception to the rule and are generally lucky b
... lucky bounces or great plays depending on the situation.
Great defense or not, the point of the Vezina is to decide which guy wearing the big leg pads is the league's best. Brodeur's only been one of the better ones for the past 15 years or so. A shot's a shot, i####oalie blocks it, it counts as a save no matter where it comes from.
Hart candidate? For sure... to win it? I can't call it this year.
I say you've gotta select Ovechkin if the Capitals skeak into the playoffs. If they don't I'm leaning towards Malkin. With or without Crosby the Penguins win... but this time without Sid the Pens have Hossa, who's been putting up good numbers.
Brodeur has definatly had an awesome season, but his weak start could hinder his chance at getting the Hart.
I think in Gary Bettman's NHL, Ovechkin will take the Hart regardless. He powered the Capitals three seasons in a row, and with his Penguin counterpart injured, marketing Ovechkin by giving him more hardware makes sense if you look at it without considering that minor hockey aspect. Not to say that he doesn't deserve it, he's to the Caps what Jagr was to the Rangers two seasons back. When Ovechkin doesn't score, the Caps don't win.
Malkin's a different story though. From day one, it was all about Crosby. We only heard about Malkin on an almost-daily basis after Crosby's injury. Definitely a great player, but somewhat overshadowed by Crosby's presence. Reminds me of the second half of the Gretzky/Messier era in Edmonton.
so now 3.25.08 its nabokov 45 wins brodeur 42 wins
nabokov 2.13 brodeur 2.17
According to usa today Sagarin ratings strength of schedule rank for the sharks is 12th in the league while the devils is 24th in the league.Starting to sound like a little east coast bias to me.Sharks 29/21 against top 16(playoff)teams and devils 13/16 against top 16.Need I go on?
Ovechkin's 60 something goals this season is infinitely more impressive that any other statistical category in the NHL. He has done something no one has in just over a decade of hockey. There is no shape or form that should discredit Ovechkin's nod for the heart trophy...including (perhaps) the Capitals not making the playoffs.
The heart balloting in my opinion will read off as:
1) Ovechkin
2) Malkin (with Conklin in net and no Crosby the Pens are still ahead of the Devil's in the standings)
3) Brodeur
And always lost in translation is Luongo, who is playing for one of the weakest teams on paper without himself on it. Vancouver has pitiful scoring and an injured defensive corps but still remain in the hunt for their division title.
thecatch22: Luongo stood on his head last year and stole games which led to the Canucks' playoff berth. His numbers aren't the spectacle they were last year.
chaas: My comment was more directed at Luongo's snub at the Heart Trophy last year. The penguins without Crosby, as evidenced this year, are a top of the line team. I fail to see how Crosby should have gotten the Heart last year. Although, much of this argument rests on hindsight.
And although his numbers have slipped he is still top 5 in most of the major goaltending categories. Also, outside of Ovechkin there is not one player that means more to their team than Luongo does. This year with Lunogo out I believe Vancouver's GGA has nearly doubled and they've one once in regulation when he hasn't started (this is off the top of my head but I think it's something like that). I do not consider him a true Heart Trophy contender this year, but the fact he is not even mentioned at all his a little disconcerning.
Much like Roy and Hasek did, it seems Brodeur casts a shadow over the rest of the goaltenders in the NHL.
Last edited by thecatch22 on March 26th at 5:37 PM.
I'm Lyle Richardson, also known as Spector, Foxsports.com 's "Prince of Pucks".,which is based on the fact I live in Prince Edward Island, Canada and I couldn't think of a better byline. I've been an NHL hockey commentator since 1998 on my website, Spector's Hockey, and I'm a contributing writer for Foxsports.com , The Hockey News and Eishockey News. I'm also a regular on The Faceoff Hockey Show and a frequent guest on "The Late Crew" on The Team 1200 Ottawa.
