This year’s Hockey Hall of Fame inductees are certainly worthy of the honor. No one disputes that Mark Messier, Ron Francis, Al MacInnis and Scott Stevens belongs there.
Yet there are several former great players who are not in the Hall who clearly should be.
I’m not referring to players like Steve Yzerman or Brett Hull, as they won’t reach their first year of eligibility for the Hall until next year, but rather long-retired players whose careers are certainly Hall-worthy but have yet to receive recognition.
Glenn Anderson was a teammate of Messier’s in Edmonton and New York and won the same number of Stanley Cups. He had 496 goals and 1099 points in 1129 regular season game, as well as 93 goals and 214 points in 225 playoff games, including five overtime goals.
Steve Larmer also won a Stanley Cup with Messier and Anderson with the NY Rangers. He also won the Calder as rookie of the year in 1983, had 441 goals and 1012 points in 1006 regular season games, and 56 goals and 131 points in 140 playoff games.
Butch Goring was one of the best two-way centers in NHL history. In a career that stretched from 1969 to 1985 Goring had 888 points in 1107 regular season games and 88 points in 134 playoff games. He won four Stanley Cups with the NY Islanders in the early 1980s, as well as individual accolades like the Masterton and Lady Byng trophies in 1978 and the Conn Smythe as the 1981 playoff MVP.
Dino Ciccarelli was a chippy player but also one of the league’s most consistent scorers. From 1980 to 1999 Ciccarelli scored 608 goals and 1200 points in 1232 game and had 73 goals and 118 points in 141 playoff games.
Doug Jarvis was one of the NHL’s top defensive forwards in the 1970s and ‘80s. He played on four Stanley Cup championship teams in Montreal, won the Selke trophy in 1984, the Masterton trophy in 1987 and holds the NHL’s “Ironman” record of 960 consecutive games played.
Rogatien Vachon played on three Stanley Cup winners with the Montreal Canadiens and shared the Vezina Trophy in 1968 with teammate Gump Worsley as the league’s top goaltenders. Traded to the LA Kings in 1971, he was widely considered one of the NHL’s top goaltenders, and backstopped Team Canada to victory in the 1976 Canada Cup.
Rick Middleton was one of the most explosive wingers in NHL history, notching 448 goals and 988 points in 1005 regular season games and 100 points in 157 playoff games in a career spent mostly with the Boston Bruins. He won the Lady Byng trophy in 1982.
Brian Propp spent the bulk of his NHL career with the Philadelphia Flyers and during the 1980s was one of their brightest stars. In 1016 regular season games Propp had 425 goals and 1004 points, and 64 goals and 148 points in 160 playoff games.
Mark Howe split his 22-year professional career between the WHA and NHL, and proved to be a great defenseman in both leagues. He had 504 points in 426 WHA regular season games and 92 points in 75 playoff games, and 742 points in 929 NHL regular season game along with 61 points in 101 playoff games.
Alexander Yakushev and Boris Mikhailov were major stars of Soviet and international hockey in the 1970s, becoming household names in Canada along with Vladislav Tretiak and Valery Kharlomov during the famous 1972 Summit Series. They blazed the trail for future Russian NHL superstars.
Carl Brewer was one of the top defensemen in the NHL during the 1960s, helping the Toronto Maple Leafs win three Stanley Cups early in that decade. He would also go on to promote hockey in Finland and thanks to his tireless efforts in retirement helped to bring former NHLPA director Alan Eagleson to justice for mail fraud and forced the league into repaying retired players millions of dollars in pension money owed to them.
I’ve yet to hear an adequate reason why those players continue to be passed over. It makes no sense that these great players continue to be overlooked by the HHOF selection committee year after year.
For Glenn Anderson, I think I could draw a parallel. The 80s Oilers are kind of like my 70s Steelers. They were so many great players that even the ones that were very good, often got oushined by great ones. Anderson was a vital part of the 80s Oilers like L.C. Greenwood was for my Steelers, and despite Greenwood's Hall worthy numbers, there has been talk of voters saying there is enough Steelers from that team in the HOF. Can't say if that is the case for Anderson, but it does look rather similar.
Anderson is a deadbeat dad that has been taken to court in attempts to collect large amounts of child support. This has seemed to tarnish his image. Ciccarelli has had problems with the law that have tarnished his image also.
This is the problem with a subjective selection of eligibiity. As long as a small group of individuals calls the shots we will continue to question them. Open voting to the public or put in measurable standards.
It certainly should NOT be based on their reputations outside of the sport. We would have to get rid of 2/3 of the Hall of we removed every deadbeat dad, drunk driver or adulterer. Imagine if baseball looked at the Babe's private life or if basketball did the same for Wilt.
Last edited by Draylar on November 11th at 10:23 AM.
Vachon and Brewer not at HOF level. Mikhailov yes and also Liapkin, their outstanding defenceman. Not sure about Yakushev, although he was an outstanding skater.
I hafta agree with Spec. how in the hell is someone with over 600 goals [Dino] not in the Hall? thats a freakin travesty if you ask me. I also second the motion for adding Pavel Bure- the Hall showed they wont punish players for having their careers cut short by injury when they added the great Cam Neely [ also know as 'Sea-bass' to all you Dumb and Dumber lovers. lol]
1) Ciccarelli has to be the only one in the 600+ goal club NOT in the HOF. We have to wonder why?!! Seems to be a no brainer. If Cam Neely and Clark Gillies are HOF-ers, Dino definitly is!
Just a quick note, I didn't add Bure or Larionov to this list because unlike the aforementioned players their respective retirements were fairly recent and I believe they'll be duly honored within the next three to five years. Those I noted in my post have been overlooked for years for no good reason in my humble opinion.
Vachon's numbers are surely worthy when you consider the fact that he made what was basically an expansion team legitimate almost overnight. Just how good those Kings teams were gets overshadowed by the fact that they had to compete in the same division as the Canadiens.
Last edited by yepitsme on November 12th at 10:53 AM.
Hi Lyle:
I have to agree with you on Rogie and Butch Goring. I considered Rogie the best goaltender in the League even before I was traded to the Kings. His play after the trade, when I got to watch him all the time only enforced my opinion. Some nights he was all we had, and he had an insatiable desire to win. He should have been a shoo-in. He was up there with Dryden and Parent.
The only reason I can see that Butchie Goring isn't in the HOF is that, whoever does the picking
is punishing him for going on 2 week road trips with only one suit jacket and 2 pairs of pants. The man played with style and HOF ability throughout his career.
Although they seem to limit the number of new HOF inductees each year, they ought to suspend that arrangement for just one year and open the floodgates to guys who have, perhaps, regrettably been passed over. In retrospect, one sees that eligibilty standards might be ligitimately subject to review. Certainly most of the guys mentioned in this piece are worthy of reconsideration for the Hall.
I've waxed long and loud about Glenn Anderson and why he belongs in the Hall of Fame. I shan't bore you all once again by restating the case, save but to say if he doesn't get in next year, both the 2009 (Hull, Yzerman, Robitaille, Leetch) and 2010 (Nieuwendyk, Lindros [probably], Selanne and Niedermayer [if both retire]) classes already appear pretty full.
I strongly agree that Mark Howe, Rogie Vachon, and Carl Brewer (at the very least as a Builder for his efforts on behalf of players' rights) all deserve induction into the HHOF.
Having done the analysis, I'm less convinced about Brian Propp, Rick Middleton, Doug Jarvis and Dino Ciccarelli (despite his 608 goals; Dave Andreychuk has 640 goals and I don't think he's a guaranteed HHOF inductee when he becomes eligible in 2009).
I'll need to run the analysis on Butch Goring: my initial gut reaction is "no" (although I greatly respected him as a player), but I can be swayed.
Among overlooked players not listed who deserve consideration are Doug Gilmour (likely omitted under Lyle's Bure and Larionov rule; don't state the obvious) and John Tonelli (remember to include his WHA performance).
Last edited by Matt_McCallum on November 12th at 4:52 PM.
I can't give you definative reasons for Goring, Vachon, Anderson, Ciccarelli, or any of the elite Soviet players not being in the HHOF. Larmer is borderline due to his career #'s being lower than most forwards who gain induction.
Goring may not make it in since five of his teammates are already in and fifth best on the team may not be enough. That also applies to Vachon, Jarvis and Anderson.
I think Rick Martin from the French Connection line belongs on the list.
Rick Middleton needed to be great for more than just half his 12 seasons, especially since he did not win any Cups. Habs fans of the 70's and 80's remember him as a worthy opponent.
Ultimately, at four or less inductees per year, and with 30 teams up from 20 up from 6, there isn't enough room for everyone.
Matt - Tonelli was a good player and a two time second team all-star, but his five seasons of 30 goals or more all came with hall of fame teammates and his peak and career goal totals don't even match those of Mike Bullard. He had a great Canada Cup in 84 but that is not enough in my opinion.
Last edited by habsnyc on November 12th at 2:05 PM.
I was stunned to read that Rogie is not in the HOF!!
Are you kidding me? In the early 70's he carried the expansion Kings. If you were there, as i was, you would have seen some of the quickest reflexes and acrobatics of any goalie in the history of the NHL. The only thing noticebly different from him and the other primere goalies of that time (Dryden. Parent, Esposito) was size.
Your comparison of John Tonelli with Mike Bullard is a perfect illustration of why hockey is not a game that lends itself to numbers like baseball. There are numerical similarities on the surface, but dig deeper and you'll find we've got two completely different players here. Bullard was a one-dimensional goal-scorer. Tonelli was a superb two-way player: an offensive threat yet incredibly responsible in his own zone.
When considering someone for the HHOF, I look at three key aspects of their career: regular season, post-season and international.
For me, the strongest arguments in favour of John Tonelli draw from his playoff accomplishments: 6 Stanley Cup Finals appearances (5 with NYI, 1 with Calgary) and 4 Cups won (all with NYI). Add in another two Avco Cup Final appearances with Houston/New England during his three-year stint in the WHA, and you've got a guy who spent most of his career going all the way to the big game. He wasn't a passenger on any of those trips.
There are other candidates I'd rather see in the HHOF ahead of him, but if we are discussing Hall worthy individuals, Tonelli is among them.
Ciccarelli and Brewer belong in the hall for sure -The rest of the Canadian players you mention were great hockey players but I don't believe they were worthy of being in the Hall of Fame. Alexander Yakushev and Boris Mikhailov absolutely belong there though. Brewer I believe was excluded because of his refusal not to make waves in an era when the owners told you when to speak and when not to. Hockey players today owe him bigtime !!!
Tonelli was the firth best forward and seventh best player on the Islanders behind Bossy, Trottier, Gillies, Goring, Potvin and Smith. He is marginally better than Brent Sutter. If another Islander makes the HHOF it will be Goring who was more noted for his two way play.
To me a Hall of Famerhas to be at least as good as half the guys already enshrined. Taking Tonelli would lower the bar.
anderson 6 cups almost 500goals almost 1100 pts the hhf board is on drugs.anderson should have been in long ago.
goring 4 cups, conn smythe,2 other nhl awards, most nhl short handed career goals, top 25 goal score and point getter in history of hockey in 1985.why is he not already in the HHF
the HOF eight year wait list (including players who will retire over the next 5 years): brodeur, hasek, belfour, chelios, lidstrom, pronger, leetch, housley, niedermayer, bure, larianov, gilmour, nieuwendyk, modano, jagr, shanahan, hull, oates, robitaille, andreychuk, bondra, selanne, federov, forsberg, roenick, tkachuk, turgeon, verbeek, recchi, sundin, mogilny, brind'amour.
four guys a year for eight years and still no room for the Soviet era players, old timers or borderline cases. add blake, ciccarelli, anderson, larmer, goring, nicholls, propp and fleury and there are enough guys for 10 years.
bottom line - you can't induct the same number of guys per season in a 30 team league as in a 6 12 or 20 team league and still please everyone.
Let's assume I agree with you that Tonelli was the 6th or 7th best player (behind Butch Goring) on those Islanders dynasty teams. I don't think it unreasonable for a 4-in-a-row Stanley Cup championship team to have seven players inducted. (Personally, I rate Tonelli ahead of Goring due to his international play and playoff performances before and after his stint on Long Island, so I'd have only six Islanders skaters in the Hall.)
Consider, the 1956-60 Canadiens have 12 members in the HHOF and the 1976-79 Canadiens have 11 members in the HHOF. By comparison, the 1980-83 Islanders have only 7 representatives in the HHOF (including Arbour and Torrey) and Edmonton (5 Cups in 7 years) has just 6 HHOFers (including Glen Sather). Those Montreal teams may be over-represented, but I think there's room for a couple more Islanders and Oilers to get plaques on the wall.
There are other players I'm far more passionate about than John Tonelli -- Glenn Anderson, Kevin Lowe and Doug Gilmour to name three. That said, if we're going to build HHOF cases for players who had great regular seasons but did nothing in the playoffs nor ever represented their country in international play, I think you can build a case for players like Tonelli, who played their best hockey in the postseason or while wearing the flag.
Last edited by Matt_McCallum on November 13th at 3:25 PM.
In the halcyon days of Bossy and Trottier, I grew up an Islander fan - so I'm a card-carrying Gillies supporter. But this whole HHOF debate doesn't even get off the ground if precedent had not already been set by inducting your Gillies and Flaman types. They were good - maybe even very good. Is "very good" good enough for the HHOF? Hardly. So enough with the talk of Doug Jarvis. I think Bob Errey and Jere Lehtinen were/are fantastic all-around players too. But let's not put them in the HHOF either. That said, the omission of Mark Howe is startling - even if you ignore his WHA numbers. The heavy numbers Howe put up as an NHL defenseman deem him hall-worthy on their offensive merit alone.
Another name I'd add to your list is Tom Barrasso. He backstopped the Pens to back-to-back Cups, won the Vezina as a rookie, holds the career record for assists by a goalie with 48, and probably should have won a Conn Smythe when the Pens won their second Cup. The problem with many Hall-of-Fame voters is that they seem to hold a grudge. Barrasso hated the media, was an unbelievably difficult person (that's being kind) and is described by many hockey writers as an unbelievable jerk. That shouldn't factor into the voting, but it does.
matt,
the montreal teams were a 10 year dynasty, it is hard to compare them to the islanders. plus the islanders had only one all-star defenseman and montreal had three. it is hard to argue that any expansion era team ever had second and third line players like cournoyer, henri richard and gainey who have around 30 cups between them and all served as Captains. you can't compare tonelli to them. though i might argue for goring.
but i entirely agree there is room for another islander and another oiler. if you like tonelli, how do you feel about claude lemieux?
my screen name says it all, name me a 600 goal scorer like dino, he wasn't fast, didn't have a powerful shot, he wasn't big, he wasn't shifty, he did alot of it on guts, determination, not being afraid to have big defensemen crosscheck him in the back numerous times, or patrick roy give him the old stick in the groin all the time. 608 goals in the nhl when the trap was in play, and the only true hall of famer he played with on his line was steve yzerman for 2 years. He is the least talented player to get 600 plus goals, and he is not reWarded for doing it the old fashioned way. work hard, work hard, eh !!!!! DINO CICCARELLI IS THE BEST LITTLE MAN EVERY TO PLAY THE GAME
Last edited by DINO22HALLOFFAMER on November 14th at 10:35 AM.
Claude Lemieux. Superb playoff warrior -- if I recall correctly, a few times along the way he had almost as many points in the postseason as he did in the regular season, but in a fraction of the games. Four Stanley Cups with three different teams is a great accomplishment. Some might say that's being lucky; I'd suggest he was a catalyst.
It's not just winning Stanley Cups, but HOW you win them. Lemieux was a core component on each of those teams and he played his best hockey when it matter most. Dirty as Hades, but as the years pass and we are subjected to Todd Bertuzzi thuggery, we fondly remember Lemieux (like Bobby Clarke) as more of a vicious rascal.
I could frame a better case (and might get around to it someday), but I'm not that passionate about him (nor Tonelli, for that matter). Suffice to say I believe Claude Lemieux merits consideration, although if I had a vote there are numerous players I prefer inducted ahead of him.
Last edited by Matt_McCallum on November 14th at 2:03 PM.
I have to go with Mark Howe. Forget his good numbers, at the top of his game, he and Kjell Samuellson seemed to own the defensive half of the ice - they controlled the flow of the game and logged about half the available ice time. His on-ice intelligence showed in positioning and decision making, he was a Flyer I really respected.
What is wrong with this picture ? I can not believe that Glenn Anderson has not been selected for the HHOF. He was an a superstar among superstars, just ask Mess or Grets of his contribution to one of the greatest teams ever assembled. Could it be that these so called experts are just that.
Last edited by chrisanthony on November 19th at 8:11 AM.
Larionov. Larionov. Larionov.
KLM line.
3 Stanley Cups.
2 golds, 1 bronze Olympics
4 golds, 1 silver, 1 bronze World Championships
'81 Canada Cup
27 year hockey career
The first wave of Russian all-stars. Prove us wrong, Hockey Hall of Fame. Don't be so North American dominant ( read: racist). Get on with it! This is a WORLD Hockey Hall of Fame!
I'm Lyle Richardson, also known as Spector, Foxsports.com 's "Prince of Pucks".,which is based on the fact I live in Prince Edward Island, Canada and I couldn't think of a better byline. I've been an NHL hockey commentator since 1998 on my website, Spector's Hockey, and I'm a contributing writer for Foxsports.com , The Hockey News and Eishockey News. I'm also a regular on The Faceoff Hockey Show and a frequent guest on "The Late Crew" on The Team 1200 Ottawa.
