In response to one of my readers, I think the title of this post neatly sums up my feelings about the foot-dragging of Anaheim's Scott Niedermayer and Teemu Selanne regarding retirement.
Throughout the off-season we've heard that both players were "leaning toward retirement". It's easy to understand why. Niedermayer had won everything at every level of the game that a professional hockey defenseman can win and now has nothing left to prove, while Selanne could cap his sixteen year NHL career by going out at the top of his game with a Stanley Cup ring.
Yet here it is September, NHL training camps are opening next week, and no real word yet from either guy. The Ducks have called a press conference for today to discuss Niedermayer's status, where it's believed they'll announce he hasn't yet made up his mind about retirement but won't be attending the start of the Ducks training camp.
If this were any other player than a star of Niedermayer's caliber, Ducks GM Brian Burke would be publicly lambasting this guy for his indecisiveness, telling the blueliner to make up his mind or Burke would make it for him.
As for Selanne, he's an unrestricted free agent but he's believed taking his cue off Niedermayer, since any attempt at returning to the Ducks this season will likely require Niedermayer to retire in order to free up the cap space for Burke to re-sign "the Finnish Flash".
But with Niedermayer still under contract for two more years at $6.75 million per, his indecisiveness is not only handcuffing Burke if he wants to re-sign Selanne but also limiting any potential player roster decisions that could emerge during training camp or early in the season.
I have great respect for Niedermayer and Selanne, and having gone through a major career change myself recently, I acknowledge that retiring from something you've done for most of your life isn't easy.
But their indecisiveness isn't fair to Ducks management, players or fans. Niedermayer and Selanne have had over two months to decide on retirement, more than enough time to weight the pros and cons.
Either retire or don't, fellas, but make a decision soon!
I admire Brian Burke for his loyalty and patience given to his players and he shouldn't have to request a deadline from these two on what they plan to do with the rest of their lives. I have no idea what must be going through any player's mind when they come close to hanging up their skates for good, but they should have at least come up with a solution by now. Even if they maybe rejoin the team mid-season or request that they play a month to see how they feel ala Brett Hull, these two players as it stands now are not doing the Ducks any favors. Sack up and make a decision, any decision. Sheesh!
1) If we were the Ducks/Burke and had another 14 million invested in a player we would have demanded an answer LONG before this!
2) It was magnanimous to allow Scott a few weeks to 'decide. However, when the Dustin Penner situation exploded last month he should have immediately made his decision at the very least as a courtesy to his employer and his team mates. His is the captain for God's sake!
3) To still not know, and possibly go into the season undecided is unacceptable, and for all his on ice accomplishments, this tarnishes those considerably with this selfishness!
"Scott Niedermayer spoke to reporters for 30 minutes today at the Ducks practice facility, Anaheim ICE, confirming what he told reporters yesterday: that he is still undecided on retirement, but he will definitely be late to training camp." from ducks website.
what the heck? definately not fair to his teammates.
I'm not even a Ducks fan and this is driving me crazy. How the heck are you going to call a press conference just to say you still don't know?? Somebody of lesser talent would've gotten the boot by now.
Hmm... Is Niedermayer related to Brett Favre by any chance?
did any reporters ask him if he thought his actions were hurting the team? did anyone point out to him he is under contract for two seasons? did anyone ask him if he thought he could still be captain of the team if he returns, given that he is not behaving like a leader?
has any player ever been this wishy washy about retirement? he doesn't want to get in shape, but he doesn't want to retire? it's like he wants the ducks to suspend him and make the decision for him. ever hear of suicide by cop? this is like retirement by gm.
1) We've been saying this all summer. It should have been decided by mid July at the latest.
2)Like Selanne, one possibility floating around the Niedermayer camp is an early/mid season return. To that we say, "What the hell for"??? Its not like Niedermayer is coming off a major injury or is dealing with a significant family/personal situation that requires his time.
3) So whats his problem? We always knew he was somewhat of a flake(http://blog.peta.org/archives /2007/08/scott_niedermay_1.php) but to do that to his teammates and organization that invested a boat load of cash shows a lack of respect and selfishness we can not ignore.
4) On-ice accomplishments aside, that would be a bush league maneuver. One that until now was relegated to the likes of Roger Clemens. #### or get off the pot Scott!
Has Burke even offered Selanne a contract? The guy is UFA and doesn't owe a thing. I have no sympathy, as I have seen UFA's leave my team in the past for various reasons.
Nidermayer on the other hand has to make up his mind. This is ridiculous. As it stands he has a contract and there isn't any reason other then him not wanting to play that is keeping him from playing. If he doesn't file retirement papers can't Burke take him to court and force him to play? He does have a contract and I'm sure there is no clause in there that allows him to decide when and if he plays. This isn't baseball where it doesn't matter when you start the season.
Last edited by Ryan7878 on September 6th at 12:50 PM.
1) We believe the Ducks can 'suspend him, freeing up his 6.75 mil in cap space
2) They probably don't want to alienate him because of his possible return, and the bad PR it would generate
Don't you all get it...this is all a scam on the part of Burke, Niedermayer and Selanne. The Ducks can't afford both players at this time. HOWEVER, if both players decide to return around the middle of the season, then the Ducks can pro-rate the salaries of both players to approx. 1/2 of their full contracts. That puts Niedermayer at $3.4 mil, and Selanne at about $2 mil. That puts the Ducks at about $48 mil, which still leaves them wiggle room at the trade deadline. These are aging world class athletes. Can you imagine how fresh they would be for the playoffs only playing 1/2 the season. The Ducks are talented enough to be in the race without both guys until mid-season. When they come back, might as well engrave the cup then.
Last edited by flash8910 on September 6th at 1:10 PM.
Flash, You are crazy, cause he would have already retired!
Spec, thanks for starting this.
For all that Neds has donr for this team, he totally destroyed it for this year, if he does retire, then the ducks are without a "star" and it is way too late for them to do anything about it.
If he retired early, do you think any of the big time UFA's this year would have went to the ducks? Could you imagine seeing Briere with the ducks?
Flash: the Ducks could indeed wait for Selanne, as he's an unrestricted free agent. With Niedermayer, however, it's a different case.
For his salary not to count against the Ducks cap, the team would have to suspend him, since he's signed for next season and must honour the terms of his contract. His contract will continue to count against the Ducks cap otherwise unless he retires, is traded, or is suspended.
As per article 50.10(c) of the CBA, the salary of a player suspended by a team doesn't count against their cap, however, the team has to have the payroll space available to bring him back once his suspension is lifted. Otherwise, he's not allowed to play for them.
Hmmm - Spec what is your take on the meaning of that CBA excerpt? Does that mean they have to maintain enough cap space while he's suspended in order to be eligible for him to re-join the team? Or does it simply mean that they need to have the cap space to accommodate the remainder of his contract for the season?
If its the latter, Flash could be right. From a cap perspective they could save half a season's worth of salary by suspending him until the mid-point and then lifting the suspension when he's ready to return. Of course the question becomes would Neidermayer really want to have the stigma of being supsended attached to him?
It means what it says, if you suspend a player, be sure you've got enough cap space for his salary and bonuses once the suspension is lifted.
I don't believe Burke is that Machiavellian. It simply makes no sense to sign Schneider if he knew Niedermayer was coming back. His blueline corps was deep enough, heck, it was deep enough to win the Stanley Cup! Adding Schneider and then handicapping himself simply makes no sense, and trying to convince Niedermayer to miss half the season to free up cap space would not only be risky, it's harebrained, something Burke simply isn't.
The simple truth is Burke expected Niedermayer to retire, went out and signed Schneider as his replacement, and is now stuck because of Niedermayer's waffling. To re-sign Selanne, he'll either need "Nieds" to retire or dump salary elsewhere.
I simply don't see how Burke can work around this unless he suspends Niedermayer if the latter still hasn't made up his mind by the start of the season. Otherwise, he's got $6.75 million going to waste that could otherwise be used to bolster his roster elsewhere if required.
I say trade Scott Niedermayer to Edmonton for future considerations. If he reports, we'll send something Anaheim's way. That will help make his mind up fast enough.
I have a tremendous amount of respect for Scott Niedermayer, but this is absolutely selfish behaviour on his part that is hurting the Anaheim Ducks. Thus far it's cost them Dustin Penner and it's been a distraction all summer long. It should not be allowed to affect the Ducks training camp and the start of the new season.
Last edited by Matt_McCallum on September 6th at 4:54 PM.
Matt: Yeah... to Edmonton. I can see that happening. That would just be too sweet to be able to actually put into words. What would those future considerations be?
I can't believe that these guys have holded out on announcing their retirement either. It's incredibly childish. You're either ready to retire or your not. I don't see why it's so hard to make the decision now... or why he couldn't have made it a month ago.
Just more evidence that even hockey players, who are the most decent and down-to-earth professional athletes out there, start to lose touch with reality around the time they sign their first multi-million dollar contract. If it can happen to a decent kid from Cranbrook like Scott Niedermayer, it can happen to anyone.
I see no other course than for the Ducks to suspend Niedermayer. Niedermayer must understand this move on the Ducks part, and I don't expect him to harbor any ill feelings. Spector is probably right about Burke expecting Niedermayer to retire. However, in the back of his mind, he is praying for Niedermayer to not, and the same for Selanne. I do see a realistic chance that Niedermayer and Selanne may not retire, which is what the Ducks really want. I don't see what the big deal is for the Ducks to wait. This team is so talented especially with the signing of Schneider. The Ducks will be in the playoffs with or without them. If they decide not too come back, the Ducks have tons of cap space. Looking at Spector's other article, there are plenty of players at the end of their contracts that may be traded. Keep in mind, the Ducks just got several picks from Edmonton from the Penner deal. Edmonton would be near the cellar. These picks will be worth gold especially with next year's deep draft.
I think Brian Burke's got quite a few sycophants rooting out there when he is perceived to have some genius plan in every situation. I respect the guy a ton and feel for him with this, but really..it IS actually possible that he's gotten the short end of the stick. That said, I have no idea what Niedermayer is thinking. It's bad enough he hasn't decided yet, but this faux press conference today was downright offensive. I'll be holding my own press conference tomorrow just to confirm that I'm still posting on this board. Well, maybe.
There is no way Burke would have signed Schneider if he didn't have serious hints that Niedermayer was going to hang it up. Then he would have had plenty of cash to sign Selanne or whoever else he wanted. I think Scotty's just a bit upset that he's been passed by already. That's what you get for taking a decade and a half to figure out whether you want to stay home and annoy your wife 365 days a year.
um.. mr flash... news flash! They only got a first and third round pick. They might be able to absorb Selane's contract, but they definatly don't have the ability to absorb both and they'd probably like to have space so that they can actually get something special for Bryzlov(sp? Backup goalie) instead of JUST a first rounder. If both of them come back the'll sign Selane and trade Scott. Imagine what you could get for him? The question is... who can absorb his contract? They could do something really special like offer Bryzlov and Scott for Brad Richards, a prospect and a first round draft pick. In that situation they wouldn't want to resign Selane and Brian Burke would be considered pretty darn evil... but in the end... holy cow that team would be destined for a repeat. Man. That sucks.
Perhaps after going through the Pronger affair last year I'm more irritated about the Niedermayer situation than I should be. But it comes down to this: It is a central point of the CBA that player contracts be guaranteed. Players were willing to accept a salary cap long before they will ever give up guaranteed contracts. But in the last year we have numerous instances of players not wishing to uphold their end of the bargain.
There are the players with NHL contracts who are signing with Russian teams (and getting away with it because of the lack of a transfer agreement). We have players who sign five-year deals for huge coin (Pronger) and then force a trade for personal reasons. We have players who sign multi-year deals (Niedermayer) and then play Hamlet all summer over whether to fulfill their contractual obligations.
How fast would NHLPA lawyers be down on an NHL club if that team dithered all summer about whether they were going to pay a player who had two years and millions of dollars left on his contract?
Last edited by Matt_McCallum on September 7th at 10:08 AM.
Like I said before, the Ducks will have no choice, but to suspend Nieds without pay. Suspension without pay meanings that Nied's salary will NOT count against the cap. It would be silly to have $6.75 million sitting in limbo. Once this is done, then the Ducks dream is for Nieds to return, BUT return late in the season. If he returns late in the season, then his salary is pro-rated against the cap. If he returns 1/2 way through the season, the his salary of $6.75 million is only $3.375 against the cap. The $3.375 million can easily be used to sign Selanne or another player. If Nieds decides NOT to return period, then the Ducks easily have more to offer than any other team at the trade deadline.
1. They have at least $6.75 mil in cap space.
2. They got a proven backup goalie for trade bait.
3. They got the 1st, 2nd and 3rd (look it up Thadd, check your facts) from Edmonton. Can we say LOTTERY pick in what is projected to be one of the best drafts in years.
Nieds has not done anything to hurt the team. All the FA that signed got paid ridiculous money. No way Burke would have thrown money around like that. No way Burke was going to match the Penner offer. This would have wrecked the team when it comes to the deals for Getzlaf and Perry. Look at the signing of Kunitz. Now, this is realisitc. Getzlaf and Penner should be more in line with Kunitz's contract.
The best player available is already with the Ducks. The Ducks just need to convince him to play later. Best case scenario is still that he plays 1/2 the season.
Last edited by flash8910 on September 7th at 10:24 AM.
As talented as Niedermayer and Selanne are, they need to make this decision with the team in mind.
Two players joining the team in mid-season would disrupt line assignments and their level of play cannot match those who have been with the team since the start of the season. Team chemistry is a delicate thing sometimes and veteran players and coaches should know this better than anyone. Join the team now or retire.
You can criticize Selanne for other reasons, but he's hardly in the same boat as Niedermayer. The Ducks flat out can't pay him right now exactly because of Niedermayer's foot-dragging, and he's already previously stated he has no desire to play anywhere else, so I think he's handled everything pretty well. If he was just interested in testing the market, we all know he could have signed in any number of places coming off the season he just had. I think Matt's point is a good one. I usually get irritated with both sides during a labor dispute, but particularly with the owners, but that particular facet of contract law is supremely irritating. I don't necessarily blame the guys flocking to Russia; for the same reason Kevin Lowe wasn't to blame when he used the offer sheet to his advantage. If it's there, you should be able to use it; just enjoy standing in line for toilet paper. But this situation is ridiculous.
As a Sharks fan, I have to say, I may be one of the few people who deos not mind that Anaheim is having these distractions. Any advantage San Jose can get is a plus.
As a hockey fan in a very non hockey friendly environment, I am angry and disappointed with Scott Niedermayer and Brian Burke. This only adds to the negative press and the "short sided" opinions of the sports talking heads (and callers) on the radio here in the States. Burke could have handled this better, and Niedermayer should not be so selfish. Especially when Anaheim has beem so good to him. Does anything think Lou Lamarillo (sp?) would have ever put up with this in New Jersey?
I hope this does come to some conclusion shortly, and Mr. Bettman and the other idioits from the NHL do not get involved. (Excuse me for the editorial comments)
Come on, guys! Sure, he's had an entire summer. But think about all the stuff he's had to do! He had to spend a day chilling with the cup. He's had the burden of wearing that gaudy ring around(is that his third or fourth?). And on top of that, he's had to build a stand for his MVP trophy. The guy's busy! Give him a break!
Matt's post is absolutely correct. The players want it both ways -- guaranteed contracts, but only if they still feel like playing for the team that signed them (or at all). If any of us could sign a long term contract that would set us up for life just to play hockey for 9 months or less per year, we wouldn't even consider revisiting every year whether or not to show up for training camp. As far as honour and commitment go, most of these guys lost their moral compass a long time ago...
Last edited by StanMan on September 7th at 5:20 PM.
Flash the cool-aid addict: NEWS FLASH! That's a cup of coffee when you consider the fact that they would've ended up paying 3 first rounders for Vannek. When you consider the potential Penner has, the Oilers got him for a steal. If he manages to score 30 goals the Oilers TOTALLY stole him from the Ducks. Why? Because if he can produce then Edmonton will win and their first rounder will be worth less. They paid 1 high draft pick and 2 draft picks which aren't worth much for a guy who's already developed into a second line player. What would you rather do? Draft a guy 15th overall and wait two years for him to develop, or throw away your late first rounde draft pick and the same with your second and third for a guy who has the qualities your team needs right now?
Of course they're going to suspend him without pay. If he wants to come back to the NHL that's what they've got to do. If he comes back in shape around the trade deadline, the ducks are a shoe in for a repeat to make the finals. If he comes back sooner they'll have to trade someone. Does Mathew Schnieder have a no trade clause? If he doesn't I'm sure they'd be able to get something pretty good for his services.
If it does come down to the Ducks trading salary, I think they'd have a difficult time moving Schneider. He's a serviceable enough replacement for Neidermayer, but he's being paid too much considering his age and it would take a very certain situation for that to work out. Burke has a much better trading chip between the pipes in Bryzgalov, and the nonexistent market for goalies right now will be a much different story by midseason. Makes for some interesting potential decisions by Burke, who just can't stay out of the hockey headlines this offseason.
The thing with Penner is "potential". First of all, just because Penner can produce 30 goals does not mean Edmonton will be a winning team. Look at the projected standings in Spector's 08/20 blog. Oilers are picked to finished last in their division. Oilers are picked to be in the bottom 3 in the conference.
You are calling Penner a developed 2nd line player. I watched about every Ducks game last season (Flash - screennamed after my favorite player Selanne). Getzlaf and Perry dominated play on the so-called PPG line. Penner was the big body that caused havoc in front of the net. It's yet to be seen how Penner will perform without his linemates. He is not a guy that comes to a team and carries the play. Also, as much as I am a Ducks fan, like Randy Carlye I often became frustrated with Penner. He does not always play like the behemoth that he is, and he disappears for stretches during the season. In last year's playoffs, he pretty much disappeared for a long stretch. He scored a goal in game 3 against Vancouver (that's the 2nd round). Then he went 10 games (2 more against Van, 6 against Det, 2 against Ott) before he had any points.
More than likely the picks the Ducks got from Edmonton will be lottery. The Ducks are stoked either Niedermayer comes back or not. If not, they have major trade bait. If he does, they can possibly win the cup, and have a top 6 pick. Future is bright.
Hmmm...anyone read The Puck Stops Here blog about the season being too long. Apparently, I am not the only one that thinks the idea of players like Niedermayer and Selanne to take part of the season off totally plausible. This just may be part of the new economics in the NHL. It is really so crazy considering the recent tactics such as signing players to total front loaded contracts for long terms to allow for a trade or buyout when the player is no longer productive.
Just look at what Forsberg did back in 01-02. He missed the whole season only to comeback during the playoffs. He only scored 27 points to lead all playoff scoring. I think these world class athlete can come back during the season and still perform well.
Last edited by flash8910 on September 8th at 10:12 AM.
MPH: Yeah but he's only got 2 years left on his contract and he's still incredibly effective if you ask me. One of the ten best American defensemen ever? Maybe.
Flash: Good job with the miss direction on that one. I'm sure I was the only one who saw it coming. I love it when people dodge what people say when they don't have anything to say and still want to see their name with some flashy words below it. AH that must be why you call yourself flash.
Of course course the thing is "potential", you twit. He's only played a few seasons in the NHL. He's getting paid that money souly on his potential. You obviously didn't need to point that out.
And yeah, I noticed where Spector put the Oilers, and I don't agree with it because like most people here, I make my own opinions when it comes to hockey. People don't come here to let Spector make their minds up for them like you obviously have. We come here to debate our opinions. Why not actually sit down for a few and make up your own opinion?
The Oilers are going to be better than everyone thinks, but not as good as Oilers fans hope. Nevertheless, I expect Penner should generate a Top 10 pick for Anaheim, plus the early second and third rounders.
Of course, that draft pick is going to help the Ducks three or four years down the road if the player turns out. Penner could be helping the Ducks now. For a championship team that could repeat, that's a key difference.
Before this is all done, we may see that draft pick swapped at the trade deadline for some immediate help if Brian Burke thinks he's got another shot at going all the way.
Good point, Matt. The Hurricanes stockpiled picks during their cup run. They then swapped a first-rounder and either a grinder or a prospect for Doug Weight in January. Seemed to work out for them. Granted, other teams played similar trade games, but it's always nice to add without subtracting from the current roster.
Unless something unforseen happens, I get the feeling Burke's going to horde the picks he has.
Hey Spec ... here is a completely different take on the whole Niedermayer thing. From a local radio guy here in Vancouver.
Niedermayer was dead against playing a game in England and (apparently) doesn't like training camp. He had a long season ... and is tired. He predicts that as soon as the team comes back from England Niedermayer will decide to come back for another year.
So yeah ... it makes Niedermayer look even more selfish and he totally has Burke over a barrel. Burke probably knows this ... put in the suspension to save cap until after the England trip and then he will trade Bryzgalof to make room for Niedermayer to show up and play.
That is an interesting take, but here's a thought: If I'm a fellow GM, I know that Burke has to find a way to clear salary space assuming he wants (or has) to bring Neidermayer back. Only a few teams are still in huge need of goaltending, and I would propose that they aren't in any particular hurry to help a rival out. I'm not saying that they would knowingly not deal for a goalie if the need was urgent, but Burke's going to have to be even more cagey than usual to make this happen knowing that all the other GMs are fully aware of his situation.
Here's my theory on this, Scott wants to see how he feels after sitting in the stands for a couple games, fair enough for a Hall of Famer still at the top of his game contemplating retirement but make up your mind quick Scott... Selanne on the other hand wants to play this year, but ONLY for Anahiem, and that only happens if Neidermeyer retires - in recent years Selanne hasn't played the same for other teams for whatever reason - the Ducks are serious contenders once again - and he probably doesn't feel like uprooting his family again at this point in his career. So maybe cut the Finn some slack, Neidermeyer deserves it, no doubt
Re: the half season consipiracy theory - pull your heads out of your as_es, jesus...
Last edited by habsitual on October 4th at 3:07 PM.
I'm Lyle Richardson, also known as Spector, Foxsports.com 's "Prince of Pucks".,which is based on the fact I live in Prince Edward Island, Canada and I couldn't think of a better byline. I've been an NHL hockey commentator since 1998 on my website, Spector's Hockey, and I'm a contributing writer for Foxsports.com , The Hockey News and Eishockey News. I'm also a regular on The Faceoff Hockey Show and a frequent guest on "The Late Crew" on The Team 1200 Ottawa.
