The Philadelphia Flyers got the jump on the upcoming unrestricted free agent market on Monday, acquiring defenseman Kimmo Timonen and forward Scott Hartnell from the Nashville Predators.
In return, the Flyers shipped back to the Predators their first round pick (23rd overall) which the Predators had dealt to the Flyers last February as part of the Peter Forsberg trade.
The Flyers then signed Timonen to a 6-year, $37.8 million contract and Hartnell to a 6-year, $25.2 million deal.
With this move Flyers GM Paul Holmgren has secured two key additions to his roster, as well as displayed the kind of audacity his predecessor Bob Clarke was once known for.
Predators fans might be questioning why their club gave up so much for so little. The answer lies in the impending sale of the team.
As per a report in the Canadian newspaper National Post this weekend, the approval of the sale of the Predators isn’t likely to be finalized before June 30th, meaning current owner Craig Leipold is still on the hook for next season’s payroll.
The Post article suggested that as a result the Predators might start gutting their roster, starting by cutting loose impending unrestricted free agents like Timonen and Hartnell. Today’s trade proves that the Preds front office had no intention of retaining these two, and casts doubt onto the possibility of Paul Kariya and Peter Forsberg – also eligible for UFA status - returning next season.
It could also stoke speculation that the Predators could begin a “fire-sale” of their best players. Roster cuts could be limited, however, as the Predators would have to meet the league’s minimum salary requirement, or salary cap “floor”, as mandated under the collective bargaining agreement.
The spread between the salary cap “ceiling” and “floor” is $16 million. With the salary cap anticipated to rise to approximately $48.5 million, the cap “floor” would thus be $32.5 million. Presently the Predators have over $33 million committed to 13 players for next season.
Even if the Predators were to conduct a roster “fire sale” their payroll must be no less than $32.5 million by the start of next season, which could prevent management from potentially dumping most of their best players currently under contract.
It was rumored for months that Holmgren coveted Timonen and would make a big pitch for him if he hit the UFA market. By landing he and Hartnell in a trade, Holmgren effectively eliminated any possibility of either losing them in a bidding war to a rival team or having their market values jacked higher than he was willing to pay.
Timonen could be paired with fellow Finnish blueliner Joni Pitkanen in hopes of tutoring Pitkanen in improving his defensive game.
It’s also possible this move could lay the groundwork for a trade of Pitkanen, who was dogged by trade rumors throughout last season. Tim Panaccio of the Philadelphia Inquirer posted to his Hockeybuzz blog that the Flyers had filed for arbitration against Pitkanen last week, although Holmgren denies an intention to trade him.
In Hartnell, Holmgren is banking on the 25-year-old reaching his full potential in the coming years. He’s projected as a power forward and loves to play a physical game but injury has hampered his development.
At the very least he’ll be a welcome addition to the Flyers second line.
These moves could also have a significant impact upon Holmgren’s other potential off-season moves. The salaries of Timonen and Hartnell will count as a combined $10.5 million against the Flyers salary cap, pushing it to almost $42 million committed to 19 players for next season.
Holmgren was thought to be in the market for a scoring center like Scott Gomez or Daniel Briere and rumored to be planning to make an offer sheet to Buffalo’s Tomas Vanek.
Given how much he’s already got committed to next season’s payroll, signing any of those players now appears a remote possibility, which could instead have Holmgren looking at more affordable, second-tier talent barring a possible salary-dumping trade elsewhere.
I think this is a great move by Holmgren to take the initiative and get two players that he wanted, before their prices became inflated on the open market. And all he had to give up was a pick that he had received FROM Nashville. I think Hartnell will be a great addition to the forward line-up as he fits the style of play the Flyers were trying to achieve towards the end of the season. And adding Timonen to the blueline should help close up some the defensive holes they showed last season. Whether or not he helps Pitkanen develop would just be an added bonus to his signing.
However I wonder why such long-term deals. 6 years seems like a long deal these days.
BEWARE! The rest of the league needs to take note...I suspect Pitkanen and the Flyer's second pick overall will be shipped to Tampa Bay for Lecavalier. Then the Flyers have the two lines of Gagne-Lecavalier-Knuble and Hartnell-Carter-Upshall. That will be difficult to defend. Quick shot release centermen, power forward and speedy winger on two lines...
Agreed, the prices are out of the world, but in what is not a rich UFA market, the Flyers just removed what was on the wish list of several GM's. Not a bad score.
Additionally, it just upped the price for the Souray's, Rivet's and others. Strong move by Homer to set the market price prior to the market opening. Gotta love the "new" NHL.
Herman: Don't bet on it. Even if the Flyers moved Pitkanen and a pick as you suggested Lecavalier's salary would be far too expensive for the Flyers to comfortably absorb under the cap, and they'd still have to sign three more players to round out their roster. Besides, the Bolts need a quality starting goalie, not an offensive-minded blueliner who appears to struggle with his defensive game. And no, they won't move Lecavalier for that either. Vinny's not moving.
The salaries Holmgren gave these two are insane. The Hartnell money is remeniscant of the money Lapointe got from Boston. There is no way he is a $4 mil/year player. Timonen is a very good defensemen, but over $6 million per good?? I don't think so. The thing that bothers me about these salaries is what they do to the rest of the league. If Timonen is $6.3m, what do Souray and Rafalski get? It's irresponsible, and I can't imagine too many GMs being very happy about this one.
Spector: By my count I see them with a payroll of about 40 million right now. Regardless, they still need a top line center. Without that key piece, they will still have massive problems.
The big concern is what does this say about next year when Carter, Richards, Coburn, Umberger, Picard and Ruzicka are all RFA's? Might be tight to retain them all. So much for the swell drafting in 2003, eh?
I am just not seeing why Homer wasted the 23rd pick (albeit in a thin draft) for things he could have likely gotten at those (outlandish) prices in a mere two weeks. I understand he removed the guess work, but is that really worth a first rounder? In all likelihood, he could have offered six year deals on July 1 and been the highest bidder. Doesn't make much sense.
This is a great move that puts the team back on track to become a contender in the not-so-distant future. Timonen is more valuable for the Flyers than other possible destinations; he can take pressure off of Pitkanen on both sides of the puck (and the power play) while tutoring both Pitkanen and his younger brother, Jussi. Pitkanen WILL NOT be traded. Why would the team deal for his fellow countryman and former partner Lasse Kukkonen AND a player that can he can learn a great deal from in Timonen just to trade him away?
Hartnell is also a very welcome addition on this team. With Carter, Richards, Umberger, Upshall, Downie, Giroux, Rusicka, and Potulny already in the mix, it looks like the Flyers have youth and depth up front that not many teams can boast. Hartnell can play a similar role to Knuble, and can maybe take his place on the first line.
In the end, I am pumped for next season. These moves guarantee nothing, however I am confident that with a few more moves, the Flyers can be a playoff team as soon as next season.
Not going to dump Pitkanen's salary as he doesn't have one. Sanderson's contract is 1.5 million. Not going to create much room by letting that go. The ideal situation would be to dump Gauthier's 2.1 and 2.2 (2007/08 & 2008/09 respectively). At those now cheap prices, there might be some takers.
Last edited by HermanZeGerman on June 18th at 1:51 PM.
could it be? Is it finally that time when I can pull out my old Flyers jersey and wear it druing scrimmages without being heckled?
This is another great move by teh Philly brass.Fans have nothing to complain about this offseason, as the team has done more in one year to improve the club that any other I can remember in recent history. Spector, is there some kind of record for best winning% a season after finishing last in the league the season before? If half these moves pan out, the Flyers wil be nmarkedly better next season. if all prove positive, then the Flyers could challenge next year.
I am sorry Philly those players are not worth a combined 10.5 million dollars a year. However us Blues fans appreciate the Flyers very much today.
Thanks.
Lanstar,
I agree with you poor poor Nashville... I think the flyers made an excellent deal but those prices are just over the top. I enjoy watching both players but I have seen it time and time again where these guys get big money and the pressure to perform is so great that they play at sub par levels. I hope they are a big part of putting the Flyers in playoff contention.
The trade was an extremely good move by Holmgren. Hartnell was a 6th overall pick in 2000 and Timonen is a proven #1 defenseman... getting the rights to both of those guys in exchange for the #1 pick they stole in the Forsberg trade was a coup.
However...
As it stands, Hartnell is being grossly overpaid. $4.2M per year for 6-years just on his potential is staggering. He made definite strides last season, showing he has the potential to be an effective top-six power-forward. But his work is cut out for him now. If he struggles, the fans at Wachovia won't let him hear the end of it.
Timmonen's contract makes a bit more sense because he would have commanded around $7M per on the open market. In signing with the Flyers, he gets a chance to mentor his little brother Jussi, as well as fellow Fins Pitkanen and Kukkonen. He'll play a ton of minutes and help the Flyers stagnant PP.
If you're keeping score, that's: Parent, Timmonen, Hartnell and Upshall for 15 games of Forsberg. Ouch.
The Preds owner did this so he can sell the team, which will eventually be moved. I expect more nashville players to be traded at the lowest price possible. Herman, those two players may not have signed with the Flyers had they waited to sign them, and why not trade the 23rd pick when they have the 2nd in this years draft.
If the Preds want to keep the minimum payroll, they'll look to move for players who have bad contracts that only have a year or two remaining. Basically, they'll still be able to get rid of anyone who is highly paid and not be on the hook when the sale goes through.
Nashville needs to becareful, I do not know if you followed any of the Blues when they were selling. But it is very tricky. You have to sell some but still keep the team strong. I would have got rid of Kariya and Hartnell myself and kept Timonen. Nashville traded two very good hockey players and got nothing in return. Now you have Kariya and I could see him being next on the block and going to a team maybe even the Blues and Forsberg is done so Nashville is now left with who TOOTOO... That does not look promising for any sale.
Ok, the trade is a first round pick for the right to negotiate... Not that bad, considering how badly we needed a top tier d-man.
We are 6 mil from 'cap out', we have to sign/trade Pitkanen and sign Kapenan, But most importantly, we still need two centermen and another d.
I was most bummed about Hartnall. Not that he isn't good. Just that we are loaded at winger and need centers. Centers? Yes, we really need two (one front line, one defensive specialist).
I don't LOVE this trade, but I do like it. I agree with some earlier commenters about Hartnell's salary. Seems like they're paying him based on potential as opposed to what he's already done. Timonen's salary appears to be the going rate for quality defensemen right now. Unless the Flyers can move some salary, they're probably too close to the cap for any of the big name free agent forwards. Getting Lecavalier is a pipe dream. But how about the aggressiveness of Holmgren? Kinda like Clarke but hopefully smarter. And from what I saw on TV, it seems like Holmgren wants out of the number 2 pick, though he obviously won't say it publicly. I just get the impression the Flyers aren't done trading.
Flyers82 - I think you are right. I wouldn't be surprised if Hartnell is moved to a team that covets him. Philadelphia still needs a top line center. I still have the su####ion that Tampa is involved. Besides improving center depth with the trade for Gratton, Tampa has SO many glaring needs right now. Homer could package Harntell with any of the following: Pitkanen, Coburn, No. 2. Pick, Gauthier, Potulny, Umberger... Shedding the 7.167 million of Vinny may allow Tortorella to pursue a netminder while absorbing Hartnell's contract and gaining an NHL ready defenceman. Sell one piece and get three that are needed.
Last edited by HermanZeGerman on June 18th at 5:09 PM.
Kingbiscut, Kapanen signed a 2-year extension during the past season. He doesn't need to be re-signed. The Flyers need to sign Pitkanen and find a #1 centerman.
Whoops, stand corrected. Was just going off of the Free Agent list posted on Spectors site. What would an arbitration award be for Pitkanen? Either way, I feel heavy on wingers, light on centers who can win face offs, and slim on D that I can count on. Its probably too much to ask for a front line center, a defensive center, and a defenseman solid to put in the second d line...
I am not sure why Philadelphia was in such a hurry to get a second line left wing. Much of Hartnell's scoring contribution is on the powerplay and I don't see how he gets enough minutes to justify his salary.
It also makes little sense to me why Philadelphia needed to give up a pick if they knew they were going to overpay for these guys. I don't imagine anyone would have matched these contract offers. I think they would have signed with the Flyers anyway as soon as free agency started.
Does this mean that the Flyers will start the season with Carter and Richards as their top centers, or is there another deal to come?
Hartnell has played well the past two seasons and I don't think he's quite worth 4 million for what he brings, but with the salary cap going up I don't doubt that he could've received a similar offer elsewhere. Next year someone of his worth will most likely be getting 5-5.5mill. If my memory serves me right he's been spending most of his time on the 2nd line and I'd say he's had good stats for a 2nd line player. Timmonen isn't worth 6+ mill a year but we all knew that he was going to get it.
So now what do you think the other defensemen are going to sign for? Do you guys think that any defensemen are going to sign for 7mill a year?
I'm happy with the move. Why not sign the best D-man possible, who cares what you have to pay. Hartnell is overpaid, but now it's up to him to prove he's worth it. Perhaps it was his powerplay abilities. Philly only really has Knuble to crash the front of the net. Eager doesn't have the hands and Carter is too skinny and seems to get hurt.
As for filling the top line centre needs, maybe this is the year that somebody steps up. I could see Gagne-Richards-Knuble, Hartnell-Carter-Upshall. That still leaves Umberger, Kapanen, Sanderson, Eager, and 2 of Afanasenkov (if he signes), Downie, Giroux, Potulny, or Ruzicka. Not bad if you ask me.
What would be funnier is if Forsberg resigns with Philly for cheap. Then I'd be confident saying Forsberg was involved in the 2nd rip off trade of his career
This move would appear to really back up what Spector has been saying both here and on his site, that being that the "old method" of overpaying top talent didn't really go anywhere after all. Let me understand, a team in economic turmoil can't afford to sign their best defenseman or their most rising star forward, so they ship them off to one of the "big guys" for a song? Stop me if you've heard that before. New salary cap, same deal. Rewind about four years and see if this story looks at all familiar to anybody.
As for the trade itself, difficult not to like it from a Philly perspective. Timonen is overpaid, but who isn't?, and he is the best offensive defenseman the Flyers have had since, oh, I don't know, ever? As for Hartnell, it's not a surprise that the Flyers pushed the market up, but he would have made this money from someone guaranteed, and by the end of this it could be a genius move, particularly if the salary cap ceiling continues to rise. Always good to have some versatility up front when you're looking to wheel and deal.
I will say this: I am far happier to see the Flyers throwing their millions at the blueline and youth than veteran wingers whose best days are long, long gone. Here's hoping Homer ushers in a bit of a sea change as to how the roster is compiled.
I like the trade but i too feel that they have overpaid Hartnell. As for a trade with Tampa....i heard a rumor that they were looking at dealing for Brad Richards...anyone else hear this...if memory serves me i think Brad has no trade clause that doesn't kick in till July 1st.
consiglieri: The Flyers want to lower Pitkanen's $2 million salary, according to the Philadelphia Inquirer. The number I've heard is reduction by $500K.
Holmgren traded the pick back to the Preds because the Forsberg deal was so lopsided. It's important that he shows the league that he can pull of a shrewd deal but he doesn't have the heart of a swindler. It's a small fraternity, these NHL GM's. Have to keep all the channels between clubs free and clear.
Recently they traded Matt Ellison to the Preds too for futures. Same deal. It's all part of trying to soften the blow of that deal, but the Flyers still come out way on top with Upshall and Parent.
As for why they pulled the trigger on the deal...
Just as with the Biron deal at the trade deadline, Flyers management identified the exact players they wanted and didn't take any chances of losing out on them. Rumour has it another team was sniffing around the Preds trying to put a similar deal together, so Holmgren had to quickly negotiate the contracts through the Preds' management in order to make the deal go through.
I think most of us agree that Hartnell got over paid and I believe Timonen's pay is a tad bit high. However, if you are a Flyers backer this is a likeable trade but not the be all end all. I sat and thought about it last night and came up with this. The Flyers clearly need some strong youth and that is what they should be focusing on. The more I think about it, this deal was not the smartest move for the Flyers. I think they should have maybe used their pick for say timomnen and saved their money so that they could infuse more youth. I mean lets face it we all know that drafting and trading is just a big gamble, and there is not a for sure thing. So if you sit back and think about as a fan you need to ask yourself; is this trade really going to make us cup worthy for the next six years? Is this the start of new dynasty in Philly? I can say no. If you look at the teams of the 70's one of those teams being the Flyers they had a great mix of youth and veterans a like. Look at the wings over the past 10 years; that is what Philly needs to be looking at. So I ask you all if you were trying to build a playoff contender and be a consistant hockey club with ability to take numerous shots every year at getting a cup, would you have made the trade if you were the GM or would you have done something different?
Holmgren just got 4 prime players for Forsberg's 15 Preds games? BRILLIANT. I can see the scenario with Tampa, but I think a smarter move would be to ship him west without the pick. Edmonton or Vancouver. Morrison would fit perfectly on the Gagne, Knuble line. Trade one underachiever for another and keep the pick to groom for the future.
Brilliant... because Nashville was desperate for a cup to save the sale of their team and a possible move out of town. Now they haven to dump players and salary all while they maintain the cap minimum just to make their team sellable. I guess if you look at it as brilliant it is only because a big market team has just capitalized on a smaller market team in its hour of desperation so to speak, so I guess Holmgren is a little more ruthless than we think. So from that stand point it was brilliant, from the stand point of players acquired, money and picks spent that is yet to be determined and a 500 record or a possible first round knock out this season will not classify this trade as brilliant. Keep in mind it is not always the players that need to be changed.
Spector, many thanks for your reply. I'm surprised that the Flyers desire to reduce his salary. Before acquiring Timonen, my understanding was that Pitkanen was supposed to be the star of the Flyers blueline.
As a fellow Habs fan, I'm of course thinking of ways that Mr Gainey can make a reasonable offer for Pitkanen (who seems like a Markov-type of player) in order to replace Souray. But, it seems difficult to give full value for Pitkanen while allowing the Flyers to save cap room to go after another UFA (most likely a center).
Perhaps the 12th overall pick, Gorges, and a prospect (e.g., Locke)?
With the Flyers apparently determined to free up cap space to pursue Gomez or whoever, it wouldn't surprise me if Pitkanen got shopped. I don't know if Pitkanen would be a good fit in Montreal.
If the Flyers are planning on moving salary in light of these recent moves, I don't think the blueline is where they are going to do their trimming. Pitkanen is coming off a very poor year, particularly when you consider the new rules which favor offense, but he's still extremely highly regarded in the organization and there is a lot tied up in his success. I think the arbritration is less an indication that they don't want Joni around as an indication that they think he isn't worth the raise he's likely to get based on last year's play. I personally believe the company line that they want Timonen to groom Pitkanen, and I don't think you lose any value by holding off until midway through this season before shipping him out if it fails. I think they make their moves up front where they still lack a quality center and have a few too many forwards. Not a really good idea to try to trade when the guy's played poorly of late...
Richards, Lecavlier, and St. Louis are NOT moving!
The only one thats most likely to move would be Dan Boyle at the trade deadline next year if the team needs help and if it becomes apparent they cant re-sign him.
boltsfan: Forget trying to convince folks otherwise, they still want their fantasy of the Bolts moving one of the "Big Three". You know it won't happen, I know it won't happen, and most importantly, Bolts GM Jay Feaster knows it won't happen. Those folks dreaming of these trades are gonna be disappointed.
I think you will see Pitkanen shopped in the west. I could see Anaheim if Niedermeyer retires for a stint with Pronger. Detroit for some grooming with Chelios before he retires. Edmonton can use him. There are a bunch of possibles in the west that make sense. Poor season or not Pitkanen will be a very solid player with the right fit.
Wow! Definitely a great move by Holmgren. He wasn't interested in using this pick and was able to guarantee Timonnen and Hartnell. But 6.3M/6 years for Timonnen and Hartnell at 4M+/6 years? It's a capped league, so this may hamper them resigning players down the road. My thinking is that he believed the price war for both would being close or going over what he paid. I'd say he paid 750k more then he should have for Timmonen and 1.25M more for Hartnell. Still, a very gutsy move.
As for the insanity...Maybe, but because the salaries are front loaded, the cap number for each of them will drop every year for the life of the contract. According to the Philadelphia Inqurier, "Timonen would be paid $8 million each of the next two seasons, $7 million each of the next two, $5 million the fifth and $3 million the sixth. Hartnell will get $5.2 million and $4.7 million the first 2 years, $4.2 million for years 3 and 4, and $3.7 million and $3.2 million for the final 2 seasons."
If I remember the CBA correctly, the cap number is the amount total amount left on the contract divided by the amount left to be paid. In Timmonen's case his cap number drops every year (year #1-6.33M, #2-6M, #3-5.75M, #4-5.33M, #5-4M & #6, 3M). I may be wrong. But if I am not, combined with rises in the cap, the Flyers won't be as hamstrung as initially assumed. Hartnell's contract is built the same way.
It's almost as if Holmgren were playing Fantasy Hockey.
Last edited by bewilderize on June 19th at 12:09 PM.
Spector, yesterday Chuck Gormley of the South Jersey Courier Post reported that the Flyers are still about $12.5 million under the cap. If this figure is correct--and from my understanding it is-- the Flyers still have plenty of room to make a run at Gomez or Drury.
Also, I HIGHLY doubt the Flyers shop Pitkanen. From my understanding it will probably be a more veteran player like Denis Gauthier, who signed a three year extension in 2005-06.
Regarding Timonen's contract, it is front-loaded but it won't decline in terms of the cap hit. It's remain an average of $6.3 million per season for the life of the deal against the cap.
As for Gormley, he's assuming the cap will be $52 million. According to my count (and that of Tim Panaccio of the Inquirer), the Flyers have almost $41 million committed to payroll, thus if the cap rises to $52 million they'll have room but it'll still be a tight fit, but if it goes to $49 million, they won't and will have to dump some salary if they're to sign Gomez or whoever. Holmgren confirmed this with Panaccio yesterday.
If there is truly 12.5 million under the Flyers cap which I believe is not accurate, they would still need to dump salary. The big picture is that the Flyers do not need to be stuck with a bunch of large salary contracts that they can not do anything with in the long run. 12.5 million dollars is nothing considering they just spent 10.5 million per year on two players for 6 years, both players had so, so years. The Flyers may have very well just made the marquee players to expensive for themselves.
Good moves negated by bad signings.. Once again the Flyer's sign big, long term contracts based on potential. A 6 yrs contract for a 32 yr old defenseman and a 6 yr contract for a winger who avgs. less than 40 pts a year. For that money they could have signed more established players who have proven they deserve that type of money Good for the short term, bad for the future...
I'm Lyle Richardson, also known as Spector, Foxsports.com 's "Prince of Pucks".,which is based on the fact I live in Prince Edward Island, Canada and I couldn't think of a better byline. I've been an NHL hockey commentator since 1998 on my website, Spector's Hockey, and I'm a contributing writer for Foxsports.com , The Hockey News and Eishockey News. I'm also a regular on The Faceoff Hockey Show and a frequent guest on "The Late Crew" on The Team 1200 Ottawa.
