There's been a running debate in the comments thread at my "Growing Pains" post (regarding the Penguins) over which goalie back in the 1990s was better, Martin Brodeur or Dominik Hasek.
The Hasek camp suggests he was better because he carried the Sabres to the 1999 Stanley Cup finals without a strong support cast that Brodeur had in New Jersey in 1995 when the Devils won the Cup. The Brodeur camp suggests otherwise, that his Devils teammates had yet to fully blossom into the stars most would become and that Brodeur was every bit a good or better than Hasek.
Since this debate is threatening to highjack that thread, I'm making this post to allow the folks involved in that debate to continue it here. If anyone else wants to chime in, feel free.
Flail away, boys, and keep it clean, as well as off the "Growing Pains" thread!
The simple truth is that if Hasek was so great in his prime then he should have had at least one cup win. Claiming that Brodeur had a better supporting cast is rediculous. I'm sure that the Sabers management thought they had pretty good teams and were confident in Haseks support. Brodeur won his three cups with completly different teams. Only four other players were on all of the Devils championship teams.(Stevens,Niedermayer,Daneyko, and Brylin)
Anyways history will view Brodeur as better for two simple reasons. One beining success, three cups, enough said. The other is records, Brodeur will hold almost all if not all goaltending records by the end of his career. Where does Hasek place?
Specotr: who would you say was the more consistent goalie? I would think Brodeur. Other than that, look at intangibles that could affect the teams performance...wasnt Hasek mooody?
I remember this being a legit. topic for debate in the mid 90s, but now there's no question that Brodeur will be remembered as the better goalie (the stats dont lie). Hasek's injuries and flirting with retirement may ultimately be what hurt him in the numbers ... but still, its like trying to differentiate two incredible (but extremely different as far as style goes) goalies.
It wasn't the supporting cast that made Brodeur so great. It was the "trap" style system that the Devils ran. The Devils would get a one-goal lead, then sit on it. They'd choke off the neutral zone, and make it tough for the opponent to penetrate their defensive zone (let alone get shots on Brodeur). Brodeur was a great goalie, yes. But, I think he benefited greatly from the system New Jersey ran in those days.
Hard to debate this when Brodeur is slowly putting himself in position to be the best goalie of all-time.
However, if the debate is about who was the best goalie DURING the 1990s, I really think Hasek was the better goalie. He won 2 Hart Trophies in a ROW. He won 5 Vezina trophies during that time period.
When it's all said and done though, Brodeur will be regarded by most to be the better goalie though, I would think.
Alright since I'm the one who pretty much got this going, let me start off by making a few things clear as to what I think:
-RIGHT NOW, Brodeur is the better goalie.
-Over their whole careers, Brodeurs is marginally better.
-BUT when both where in their primes Hasek was the better goalie.
Thats what I'm trying to say, when both where in their primes meaning mainly 1994-2003, Hasek was the better goalie. If you wish to debate, thats what I'll be debating.
Finally I'd like to apologize to Spector. He's told me before to stick on topic and again I failed to do so. Sorry bout that.
Last edited by LetsGoBuffalo on April 22nd at 1:00 PM.
Apology accepted LGB. At least you're not a troll!
Besides, it was an interesting debate thus I felt it was worthy of its own post.
And for the record, Hasek was the better goalie in the 1990s, but overall, I'd give the nod to Brodeur, who has three Cups to Hasek's one (so far) and is closing in on the records for most career regular season victories and regular season shutouts, plus broke the record for most victories in a season.
Yeah thats the thing for me. I think the number of cups won comparison is an unfair one.
Just compare rosters between the teams Brodeur has had and Hasek has had and its really not even close.
I think an intersting statistic to look at is the number of shutouts/games played. Hasek's is .111 and Brodeur's is .108.
They are both very close but with the Devils shut down style of play and the fact, and no one can argue this, that the Devils had more talent on their team, I think thats very impressive for the Dominator. Hence why he has the nickname, Dominator. Heck even Gretzky one time said that he was the best player in the game.
Just to put that stat into even more perspective, Patrick Roy had a .069 shutout/games played.
For me, this is like choosing between Pepsi and Coke. I prefer Pepsi, but if the place only has Coke, I won't complain. Especially since the Flyers were serving up the generic brand in the 90s.
The years that Hasek won the Vezina he was in close running with Brodeur. Most people will agree that Hasek got the nod because of the Devils system. However that system was created around Brodeur. Without his big save ability and stick handling the Devils wouldn't have been able to use the trap as successfully. One could even make the argument that Brodeur made the system work as well as it did, hence the trapezoid rule.
Anyway argueing that one goalie had better years for five years is crazy. Especially when in that span Brodeur had two seasons in a row with a GAA under two. The first goalie in fourty years to do that and the last since.
If you want to compare them it should be a career comparison.
Ok, I just went to NHL.com and added up the GAA numbers for Brodeur and Hasek. I had to laugh because they were the same 2.18 for both from the 93-94 season to the 03-04 season. Not much help there for either side.
Really tough to make a choice I believe both were and are still very good goalies. When it comes down to it I would go with Brodeur. I don't think the arguement about the trap should matter, seeing as the trap was available to any team that wanted to use it.
Well there is a couple of things about Brodeur and the Tapezoid rule:
1.) For sure the rule was made with him in mind. I know I will take a lot of heat for saying this but shot stopping isn't Brodeurs best facet of his game. Its his stick handling.
2.)The Trapezoid, a lot of experts have said, wouldn't have as big an effect now-a-days because it seems the East and West has changed styles. The East used to be a dump and chase conference and now its the West. The East is a possession conference, and that would negate some of what makes Brodeur so good.
I watched Hasek up close from his early "Evel Knieval" days as Grant Fuhr's backup/successor to the height of his prime in that 1999 Cup run. The thing that is burned in my memory forever is the sheer number of shots the man was subjected to during his time in Buffalo. Many nights there could have been a 3-1 edge in shots for the opponents. But if the Sabres happened to sneak in the first goal, as a fan you felt the game was probably in hand. A two-goal lead was money in the bank. And nearly every time that scenario played out, Hasek made it stand up.
I suppose my view is tainted a bit by my hometown loyalty, but I just don't remember the Broduer Devils of the 90's being out-skated and out-played during as many of their victories as those Sabres teams were.
I have nothing but affection for those old Buffalo horses (Peca, Dixon Ward, Dawe, Presley, Curtis Brown, Barnaby, et al). Those teams were chock-full of plumbers and lunch pail guys that you loved to root for. But they were overmatched at both ends of the ice against most competition.
Hasek was the difference maker.
Without Dom, those were non-playoff teams right down the line. I have no doubt about it.
And that is why I would give my vote to Hasek as the best I've ever seen in person.
The Sabres of the 1990's were closer to the Bruins of 2006-2007. The only difference is goaltending. Hasek made a huge difference for his team.
On the other side of things, Brodeur took over during the days where The Trap was just beginning to blossom. One might argue that Brodeur's the reason the Devils switched to The Trap. One might also argue that Brodeur adapted to the system extremely well. I don't know the answer. Fifteen years later, I'm not so sure it matters.
I don't think these two can be compared. Contrast in style, team support, and team systems pretty much negate the "Who's Better" argument. Put either in the others' skates, and you'd still have two elite netminders. But, how would Hasek do playing with the trap? How would Brodeur do playing with no defense?
We can't very well answer these questions. It's all supposition at this point.
Very well put, Sabreguy29, very well put. Is 29 for Pominville?
Chaas, the Bruins this year could skate. Goaltending was their biggest problem. The Sabres of the mid-to-late 90's couldn't skate and goaltending was their biggest strength. They are almost complete opposites of each other.
This really defines how your using "better" goalie. If it was game 7 of the finals and I had Brodeur and Hasek looking at me for the start I would take Brodeur hands down. If it was the start of the season and i'm selecting my starter I start Hasek with no second thoughts.
Hasek did carry a weak Buffalo team to the finals one year. but so did Arthues Irbe with Carolina and the same with Dwayne Roloson and so did Jon Casey.
The best 2 Buffalo teams he played on did not even get a sniff of the finals.
Then he goes to Detroit and Backstops a team all the way yet we forget that one of the best teams of all time was playing in front of him. Chris Osgood did the same thing with almost the same roster
My complaints about him are simple
To Many injurys To many retirements. Still not bad for a 10th round pick
Martin
Has 3 Rings. With 3 different coaches with 3 different systems.
Also he plays 75 games a season Hasek's most is 72. and has never broke 67 sence
Ask yourself this question
If you had 1 game to win and your life was riding on it. Who would you want in your net
My Answer
Patrick Roy or Martin Brouder
Hasek would not even be in my top 5
Hasek is great do not get me wrong. Vezina's are nice so is a Heart Hell even Eric "crybaby" Lindros won a Heart
But what is the goal of every team in September?
To hoist Lord Stanly's cup in June
Broduer Wins
Last edited by True_kings_fan on April 23rd at 6:31 PM.
1. Brodeur is the ice man. It's very rare that anyone can really get inside his head.
2. When the pressure is on, he plays better.
3. He doesn't have a history of getting injured or wanting to retire.
4. He isn't outspoken. He just goes out there and wins.
5. When you look at the teams he's won cups with there were very few of the same players on each team. Why did the Devils win the Stanley cup? Because they had Brodeur.
6. He's going to retire after having broken pretty much every record there is for a goalie to win.
7. He plays a ton of games and it doesn't seem to tire him out.
Really Hasek can't claim to live up to half of this. Instead with Hasek you can write a list of the top seven reasons why he isn't as good as Brodeur.
When compared by the numbers these two are just too close to pick a clear cut winner. In my book the one thing that puts Brodeur over Hasek is his calmness. Hasek has a history of taking bad penalties when he is mad. I'm not saying Brodeur hasn't taken any bad penalties but you've never seen him throw his stick or break it on the ice, boards, pipes, etc. He doesn't yell at the refs or chase them around or shoot pucks at them. Things like these can cost teams games. Those are also the most selfish and unnecessary penalties in the game.
So for one game, all or nothing, I want the man who can keep his cool and get the job done.
Hockeyfan-One of Hasek's biggest weaknesses was his inability to have a cool head. I'm not sure if you know about this but during a playoff series a former Buffalo columnist called him out saying he faked an injury and Hasek preceded to choke him, literally. Hasek was suspended the rest of the series and we lost that series.
TKF-Again, its so ridiculous hearing people try to compare the Sabres teams that went to the Finals to other "bad" teams that did. Its blatantly obvious you know nothing of those Sabres teams so I'm not even going to get started on that.
Second, who are the best two Buffalo teams that didn't reach the Cup Final?
"Brodeur has 3 rings... in 3 different systems?" Do you realize what you just said? The Devils big thing is the fact that they have been using the SAME system for so long and still be successful.
The reason Brodeur has more rings is because he was on better teams throughout his career. Its the worst argument you could make and let me give you an example-Its like saying Scott Gomez is a better center than Pat LaFontaine because hes won 2 to Patty's 0. The ultimate goal is to win the Cup but thats the team, when Hasek was given a team in Detroit he did just that.
And finally, whos to say that Hasek wouldn't have won a Cup with Buffalo had the NHL done the right thing and waved off that goal. As much as you would like to say it doesn't matter, it does.
Thadd- LOL, I read the list and if you want to know the truth here you go:
1. "Brodeur is the ice man. It's very rare that anyone can really get inside his head."- The Ice Man? Hardly. His career record in playoff overtimes is a whooping 9-19.
2. "When the pressure is on, he plays better." You just said pretty much the same thing two times in a row but thats ok because so can I. His career record in playoff overtimes 9-19. When is there more pressure than overtime in the playoffs?
3. "He doesn't have a history of getting injured or wanting to retire."The injury thing I understand. The retirement? What difference does that make?
4. "He isn't outspoken. He just goes out there and wins." So Hasek is seen talking all the time? Please give me an example. The only time Hasek loses his head is when people attack him. And Hasek does go out and win but I fail to see how this makes either a better hockey player.
5. "When you look at the teams he's won cups with there were very few of the same players on each team. Why did the Devils win the Stanley cup? Because they had Brodeur." Oh my God! Look at the rosters, the core is ALWAYS there. In fact the last two Cups were almost identical. The first one was together in the early part of the 90's and when they took the Rangers to the seventh game of the EC finals. Another lame argument because its just not true.
Last edited by LetsGoBuffalo on April 24th at 6:03 AM.
6. "He's going to retire after having broken pretty much every record there is for a goalie to win." Like his Cups, these records are more due to him being in that system and having guys who can play the game. And like I stated before, Brodeur may have more shutouts but his shutouts per game is smaller than Hasek's.
7. "He plays a ton of games and it doesn't seem to tire him out." What? Does Hasek seem tired out? Even if he does, and I don't know how you would quantify that, you do know he's the second oldest player in the NHL, right?
even though Brodeur had a good team around him he's never had the benefit of a "superstar". Yes he had Stevens and Niedermayer for years but has only had two fourty goal scores on his team.
When you play for a team that tries to get the one goal win that puts a lot of pressure on a goaltender.
As far as records go that shows his consistancy. Winning with huge changes to his roster, setting the season wins record with a no name defence. Okay he has Rafalski but the rest are rookies and guys at the tail end of their career. I think that says a lot about how much more he meant than the team around him.
Last edited by hockeyfan30 on April 24th at 6:45 AM.
Exactly, Brodeur can not make mistakes. His team rarly gets him more then 2 goals.
Sabres fans get over the foot in the crease thing already. There was no garentee that if it was called you would have won the cup.
It was fate that the Sabres would lose in that fashion. All your teams loose with Drama. Just ask Scott Norwood. You take that Dallas team you lost to in that final and play that series 10 times the Sabres would lose 9.
The only thing on that roster that was better then Dallas was Hasek thats it.
I did not say the systems were exactly alike just simular. 3 cups with 3 coaches and a different cast of forwards from cup 1 to cup 3 the only thing that did not change was Stevens and Scotty N.
I do not know nothing about theos Sabres teams your right but point totals do not lie. There is a reason why I and most other people do not know or care abut the Sabres. ITs Buffalo. IF they all dropped dead most fans would say I did not even know they had a team. Next time when you get a new arena make sure the scoreboard is properly attached. That was funny
TKF- Have you been watching this years playoffs? "Brodeur can not make mistakes"? He looked like #### the first four games and the Devils still won 2 of those!
"I do not know nothing about theos Sabres teams your right"- Ok so then why are you even on here? You obviously can't add anything to the debate.
It's really similar to the Montana vs. Marino argument in football. Joe had all the championships, but you had to wonder what Dan would have done with Roger Craig to hand off to or Ronnie Lott and Charles Haley/Fred Dean stifling the opposing offense.
You have to think, "what would Broduer have done for those Sabres teams? And Hasek for those championship Devils?"
Does anybody really see a drop-off for either team. Not me.
They both made their marks in the NHL and it will be a long time before they are forgotten. Here is my question to you LGB, how much difference is there in Hasek to Miller? And in the last five years who has been the best in the NHL. And by the way I don't think winning the Olympics or the Stanley Cup makes you a goalie. Cam Ward, Nikolai Khabullian both won cups, but how many good seasons have they had besides that. Ward is a rookie in my mind, so I won't bash him to much.
I'll give you Stevens, Neidermayer and Rafalski. Mogilny had one good season in NJ(one of the 2, 40 goal scorers) then bolted. Sykora was never a superstar in NJ I doubt you could call him that for any team he's played for, good yes superstar no. Elias shows flashes of greatness but he's so streaky you can't count on him. Madden is a great shutdown man, one of the best in the league but rarly contributes on the scoreboard. Gomez is a great passer however he looks better because of who he plays with and unlike a true superstar doesn't really make those around him better. Daneyko well thats been addressed already. Gionta is the second of the two 40 goal scorers I spoke of and may have had another 40 goal season if not for injuries, so I'll give you him as well.
Are you kidding me? You're sayin Sykora is as good as Afinogenov? Thats insane, there are a handful of players in the league as dangerous with the puck as Max. Also Smehlik and Zhitnik were one of the best defensive pairings in the league. Dumont is a great two way player. Satan was pretty dangerous as well although probably more on a level Sykora. Anreychuk and Gilmour were well past their prime but still good players.
Last edited by hockeyfan30 on April 24th at 10:04 AM.
Go and look how many points Afinogenov had when Hasek was there. The last year that Hasek played in Buffalo the scoring leader on buffalo had 60 points.
I did look, before I posted, the point is that Hasek had talent there as well. Look at Maddens numbers he's had one season with more than fourty points. LGB still considers him a superstar.
go look at the team brodeur had in front of him in the last season of hasek's duties in Buffalo
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/ leagues/seasons/teams/0000512001.ht ml
I some how think this is a higher scoring team that allowed Brodeur to allow more goals.
And here is a link to see buffalos team.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/ leagues/seasons/teams/0000332001.ht ml
I don't even like Hasek, but when it comes down to it NJ had better teams than Buffalo.
I never said NJ didn't have a better team, I said Hasek had talent too. It's not like he was playing for a bottom dweller. Also I never said those players were superstars I said they were pretty good. Read the post next time before starting to argue.
the thing is none of those players you listed very pretty good. they were all average, actually not even. Hasek made that team. You can't say there was talent there, there were guys on there way up and alot of guys on there way down. When its all said and done Hasek made players look better than they were. Take him away and what do you have. Take Brodeur away and you still have an elite defensemen in Nidermayer, a young offensive defensmen in Rafalski and you have Stevens who was a very good defensive defensmen. And up front you had fire power.
Ok, I was trying to come up with another argument but not even a 30 goal scorer on that team. Dang didn't realize it was that bad. Anyway they did have some pretty good defensemen. Eh, it's all I got left for an argument.
Yes hockeyfan30, to the chagrin of many, many Buffalo fans it was indeed THAT bad.
I can't begin to count how many times my friends and I commiserated that those mid-to-late 90s Sabres just needed one premium D-man (a la Stevens or Neidermeyer) and LaFontaine back in his prime or close to it. But right down the line it was simply one mucker after another. Satan was the closest thing to an elite scorer that Buffalo witnessed in years...and there were many guys around the league more dangerous than him.
Even when the Sabres would attempt to bring in some of those missing pieces it would invariably be washed-up talent (Gilmour, and to a lesser extent Andrychuk) or dressed-up no-talents (Chris Gratton...pardon my gag reflex)!
But for all his temper tantrums and injuries and petty grievances, it was just a blast watching Hasek #### up the other teams' superior scorers. For all his faults he gave our tortured city some pride that we were the best at something other than chicken wings (definitely) and snow (kind of a bad rap compared to 'Cuse and Rochester).
Ryan-Thanks for the info. I didn't know where to find it!
Hockeyfan- As sabreguy said, Satan was the closest thing we ever had to an elite goal scorer. Just to show you how good Hasek was, he was 1 minute and 15 seconds away from, from that season that Ryan put up, putting Buffalo into the Eastern Conference Finals.
It took a bad bounce, wierd deflection and Mario Lemuiex on the recieving end of all that from stopping Buffalo meeting the Devils in the playoffs. That would've been a great series to watch...
By the way, Max was in his first years as an NHLer. Not even close to what he is now.
Last edited by LetsGoBuffalo on April 24th at 12:27 PM.
LGB
hockeydb.com is a very good site. I use it all the time. Its good to look up draft years and see who has been the most productive in that year. I looked up my oilers one time and they had a few years where total games played by drafted players was under 50. gotta love taking Jason Bosignore fourth one year and Steve Kelly the next year at sixth.
LOL, yeah I'm sure it does bring back the "good" memories! Its a great site but how come it doesn't show what happened in the playoffs in the years it gives you?
Scott Stevens, Scott Neidermayer, Brian Rafalski, Petr Sykora and Patrik Elias I'll give you them. But Mogilny was on the Decline, Ken Daneyko was good but not great. Madden? Are you kidding me? He just played a support role. Scored some important clutch goals for them in the past, but he wasn't seen as a super star ever and he wont be either. Brian Gionta wasn't the scoring machine he is now. And Gomez? Really I think he's one of the most overated forwards in hockey. He's never hit 100 points in his career and people are talking about giving him 7mill. What a joke.
If you wanted to knock Fur for having so much talent in front of him I'd let you get away with that. But really Brodeur didn't have a lot of talent in front of him except for a few good forwards and two awesome defensemen. And really since when does a team with NOTHING win the Stanley Cup? Yeah thought so.
Maybe it's just the playoffs getting to your head because it's been so long since your team has been up with the cream of the crop. I dono, but I say you're talking this too personally and you've got a pretty big bias going on here.
Its not bias because I actually WATCHED these two teams.
Mogilny was on the decline? LOL, again look at the stats. In the last season that Hasek was on the Sabres he had 40 goals and 83 points.
Gomez is overrated? And yet a guy who follows NHL, meaning a GM of another team, is going to pay Gomez 7-mil a year. I think I'll trust them over you.
"Madden scored important clutch goals but will never be seen as a superstar"? Isn't that what makes a superstar?
Brodeur had plenty of talent in front of him. In fact, its an insult to the other players because he had so much in front of him.
When the Devils have talent but not a lot, like right now, Brodeur can't win the Cup. He doesn't carry the team, the team has to play well in front of him. If you reallly think that Brodeur has carried those teams, its obvious you've never seen Hasek carry the Sabres.
I know you wouldn't even be arguing this if you saw Hasek in his playing days with the Sabres. I mean its not even close.
As I said before, the only "name" player I would not consider a star from those Devils teams would be Ken Danyeko...and he was a solid workhorse that any coach would trust on the ice.
Mogilny may have been on the decline but he's one of maybe 7 or 8 guys in NHL history to have 70+ goals in a season. There was plenty left in his tank. You think the other coaches let their 4th-line rummies handle Mogilny's line?
Madden's strength was not in his goal/assist totals but in his penalty-killing and 2-way play. Maybe you can't list him on a "superstar" ballot but he was as dangerous as they come in shorthanded situations. 2 questions? Is it important to have a good two-way forward on your hockey team? Where would you rank Madden among his peers of the late 90's/early 00's?
If I'm not mistaken, Broduer and Hasek only went head-to-head once in a playoff series. The '94 playoffs of Broduer's rookie year. Broduer won that tough battle 4 games to 3.
However, in the centerpiece game of the series, a 4-OT monster in game 6 (which I was lucky to be in attendance for), Dom outlasted Marty in what might be the longest 1-goal affair in history. I think Hasek made 70 saves that night.
I remember sitting there in the Aud at 1:30 AM thinking how exhausted these two goalies must be playing all those minutes under the weight of all those zeros on the scoreboard. A great memory and a fitting one for this debate.
I'm Lyle Richardson, also known as Spector, Foxsports.com 's "Prince of Pucks".,which is based on the fact I live in Prince Edward Island, Canada and I couldn't think of a better byline. I've been an NHL hockey commentator since 1998 on my website, Spector's Hockey, and I'm a contributing writer for Foxsports.com , The Hockey News and Eishockey News. I'm also a regular on The Faceoff Hockey Show and a frequent guest on "The Late Crew" on The Team 1200 Ottawa.
