Barring a miracle on the Pennsylvania Turnpike or a Texas landslide, it's beginning to look more and more like 2008 will provide us with a Detroit vs. Pittsburgh Stanley Cup Final. And that match-up could be one for the ages with the most probable and potential HHOFers in the lineup since Colorado vs. New Jersey in 2001, maybe even since Edmonton vs. NY Islanders in 1984.
Eyeballing the Detroit/Pittsburgh rosters, there's pretty much four guaranteed HHOFers already in the mix (Hasak, Lidstrom, Chelios and Crosby), a bunch of guys with the potential to get there if they stay healthy (Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Malkin, Hossa, Gonchar), even a couple of argument candidates (Osgood and Roberts) thrown in for good measure. And, no doubt, maybe one or two more young players who'll emerge from the mix over time and surprise us all. That's not a bad crop of high-end talant which should produce some great hockey over the next few weeks.
In advance of that, it's to one of those HHOF argument candidates -- Chris Osgood -- that I'd like to turn our attention and sound out the argument posed in the title of this blog: Is Chris Osgood a Hockey Hall of Famer?
The initial gut reaction for many (myself included) is that Chris Osgood isn't a Hall of Famer. He doesn't have the swagger of a Billy Smith did or that aura that surrounded Grant Fuhr in his prime. Instead, Osgood has quietly put together a very impressive career, and with nine straight wins in this year's playoffs he's beginning to make some noise at last. So let's take a closer look at Mr. Osgood...
As of the end of this regular season, Chris Osgood has won two Stanley Cups (albeit one as a caddy) and holds a regular season record of 363-195-66 in 664 games (a 0.596 winning percentage). Those are pretty good numbers thus far, which currently puts him in the same class (stastically, at least) as Hockey Hall of Fame hopefuls Rogie Vachon (3 Cups, 355 wins), Tom Barrasso (2 Cups, 369 wins), Andy Moog (3 Cups, 372 wins) and Mike Vernon (2 Cups, 385 wins). Each of those players have vocal lobbists passionately arguing for their induction and the Hall would clearly not be diminished by their inclusion.
Let's consider Osgood's contemporaries: Among active goaltenders, only Martin Brodeur (3 Cups, 538 wins), Ed Belfour (1 Cup, 484 wins), Curtis Joseph (0 Cups, 449 wins) and Dominik Hasek (1 Cup, 389 wins) are ahead of Osgood in regular season wins. There is little doubt three of those four guys in front of Osgood are headed to the Hockey Hall of Fame shortly after they retire -- the jury is still out for Curtis Joseph; subject matter for another blog someday. Osgood is among some select company.
So, is Chris Osgood a Hockey Hall of Famer? I'd have to say he's a player on the cusp, and this post-season could be critical to his chances, tipping him one way or the other in the minds of fans and HHOF Selection Committee members alike. If Osgood wins his third Stanley Cup this year (playing AHEAD of Hasek) and he pushes himself over 400 regular season wins (which is quite possible with another couple of seasons in the Motor City), the argument for his induction becomes significantly stronger and I'd wager it likely he makes the cut. Conversely, if Osgood loses out in the Final this season, he becomes labelled as a guy who couldn't win with a great team in front of him and likely finds himself on his way out of Detroit and out of HHOF contention.
Your last paragraph is the key, but you need to add a look to the future too...
If he is able to win it all this year his numbers should be good enough, especially the three cups.
But Osgood just signed a three year deal, and Hasek looks like he's done.
My thoughts are they will go with Osgood next year and bring up Howard, thier goaltender in Grand Rapids, next year. Especially since the UFA goaltender crop does not look that great this year.
The way things are going for the Wings right now it would be hard to say they will not have a good year next year with Osgood.
If he plays out his 3 year contract at the level he is playing right now, and the team stays at the level they are at right now, I'd say he will be in the hall.
Matt McCallum you brought this up somewhere on Spectors blog and I thought it ineresting then and do now.
Osgood if he keeps doing what he is doing now yes he gets in with three Cups albeit back up to Vernon for the first one. Games won and if he brings his GAA down for his career during the season (he is doing that now for his career playoffs GAA) and the defense stays put or good Lord gets better that is freaky considering the d the Wings have now; but you know Holland. Then yes Osgood goes to the HHOF in Toronto.
I still think the Wings try to get Ryan Miller back to MI and give the Sabres Howard that is just a gut feeling I have had. But Howard has to get some PT at the Joe for that to happen.
Ryan Miller would like to play for Detroit and he would be close to his family that live in East Lansing.
That is off topic. Ozzie to the Hall could very well happen.
Thanks for the comments, guys! I haven't blogged in a while -- I give the Spector Blog threads all my best stuff! [*grin*]-- but I thought this musing was worth expanding on a bit further.
It fascinates me that we are likely watching Osgood's defining moment (one way or another) this playoff run.
When you think about his story -- wins the Cup in 1998 but not recognized as a significant factor, unable to carry the team back to the promised land the next three seasons, made the scapegoat and shipped off on waivers, returns to the Wings a half decade later as essentially the understudy to Legace and Hasek -- it's a great pleasure to watch him put together this kind of a run.
Outstanding analysis. Like you've said, if he wins another cup, Osgood can punch his ticket to Toronto.
I'm a fan of American players. Based on your analysis, neither Mike Richter nor John Vanbiesbrouck seem to have strong HOF cases. I would have thought Richter has a real strong chance because of the Cup Victory and the fact that he beat Canada almost single-handedly at the WCOH in 1996.
Both John Vanbiesbrouck and Mike Richter are worthy of a proper HHOF analysis in their own right. I've been noodling about a short series on the eligible candidates in advance of the 2008 HHOF selections to be announced on June 17. I'll add both these guys to the mix.
In advance of that proper analysis, my initial reaction is that both these players were excellent goaltenders, but just not quite good enough to get into the Hockey Hall of Fame.
Of the two, Mike Richter seems to have the best case and he deserves serious consideration for the Hall with his Stanley Cup, the World Cup gold in 1996 and the Olympic silver in 2002. That said, there are other eligible goaltenders who to my mind should make the cut before Richter.
Matt, I don't mean any disrespect to you but, I get a little tired of everyone under estimating Osgood's contribution to the NHL!! You fail to mention that one of the cups that Mike Vernon won was on Osgood's back, then He wins one the following year on his own!! He wasn't Vernon's "cady" He's a great team player!! By the time he retires his numbers will far surpass all the above mentioned, he lets his playing do the talking not his mouth, so please give some respect to one of the best goalies to play the game!! I rest my case.
No disrespect intended either, but you do need to check your facts: Vernon won his first Stanley Cup in 1989 with the Calgary Flames (no Chris Osgood in sight) and his second in 1997 with the Detroit Red Wings when he played all 20 games for the Wings in during playoffs and won 16 of them (16, of course, being the magic number to win the Cup). Vernon, it should be added, also picked up the Conn Smythe that year too.
Meanwhile, in 1997 Playoffs Osgood played just 47 minutes over two games during that post-season (recording no decisions) compared to the 1229 minutes that Vernon put in between the pipes. I think the Wizard of Oz playing only 3.4 percent of the total time possible in net during the 1997 playoffs doesn't provide much of a back upon which it can be claimed he carried Mike Vernon, but certainly qualifies Chris Osgood as a caddy.
As for underestimating Osgood's contribution to the NHL, that was essentially what my post was all about: I'd like us to give him a re-estimation. He's not one of the first guys who springs to mind when you think about the current greats, but the numbers suggest otherwise, and his performance this post-season is starting to look like one for the ages.
Last edited by Matt_McCallum on May 14th at 10:55 AM.
I have said for years that Ozzie is an underrated, good, solid goalie. Whether or not he can take my Red Wings to the cup remains to be seen, although he has played very well in these playoffs so far.
I sure am rooting for you, Ozzie! I'm tired of my boyfriend calling you "was good" and was really happy to see a sign in the stands saying "so good"
While Chris is a good solid net minder, he simply has never been able to take over a game and get the big win all by himself. A great goalie should be able to stand on his head, stop everything coming his way and get the win against all odds.
The greatest goalies I've seen over the years include Fuhr, Roy, Hasek and Brodeur. Osgood simply isn't in the same catagory as these guys no matter what his stats are.
I would classify Osgood as a HHOF'er if the few things occur: 1: he wins the Cup this year. 2: He plays at least 75% of the games the next 3 years, winning at least 40 games. He split time with Hasek this year, so the argument could be that they split this Cup down the middle. 3: Osgood needs to be the #1 goalie for the 3 years he signed for, and win his 4th Cup for Hockeytown. Anything less will be a disappointment.
I love ozzie... but i dont see it... he would have to play for quite a few more years and add another cup or two...
unless the HHOF is like MLB, where everyone (but the best hitter of all time Pete Rose) gets in.
Lions:
Rose broke the golden rule in baseball plain and simple. And not "everyone" gets into the Baseball Hall of Fame. In fact, it probably is the most difficult of any of the big four to get into. It all of these posts there seems to be one theme: Osgood is a solid goaltender. For me, being a solid player does not equate to being a Hall of Fame player. Can Osgood bridge that gap within the next three years? I think he is what he is and nothing more.
Hi Matty:
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/ Arena/3633/50best.html
I found this in net neverland and forward it on to you as a you are a big oiler fan.
Enjoy
Cobra
YOU ALREADY HAVE CROSBY HEADED TO HOF? You have got to be kidding me?....If Ken Drydens in Ozzy should be too, afterall Dryden rode the greatest team of his era to those cups
Chris Osgood is the man. Very consistent. It is weird when someone who is as consistent as him would have their talent doubted by so many. He is the ugly girl with glasses that got a makeover and contacts and is gorgeous now. Osgood's numbers don't lie. I will say this. I don't like the fact that so many are talking about Det/Pit in the Cup Finals as if it has already happened. The Dallas Stars are on the move and I do not underestimate their ability to take this series. The Wings had them on the floor and didn't finish them. The Stars are what Pat Riley said, "a wounded animal" and those are some of the most dangerous beings on the earth. Stars in 7. Shock the world.
what people fail to mention is that osgood is merely the backstop for a very complete detroit team,especially the defence.would osgood have won playing for anaheim,carolina or tampa bay?i think not...
Was-good... er, I mean Osgood, is the benefactor o####reat hockey system. There are several current goal tenders that would have posted far better numbers if they were playing in Detroit, rather than where they have played.
Was-good... in the Hall of Fame? In a simple, one word answer... NO!
It is funny that goal tenders are judged by their numbers alone. If a player happens to play his career on bottom dwelling teams, they never get any recognition.
Case in point... one of the absolute best goal tenders that I ever saw play was Gilles Meloche. Does anyone know who he is? Probably not... why? Because he played for the California Golden Seals, Cleveland Barons, and the North Stars at the end of his career. If Meloche had the chance to play for the modern day Red Wings he would probably have twice the wins and half the G.A.A. that Osgood has posted.
Essentially your argument boils down to "There are a lot of winners who just happen to play on losing teams, and a number of losers who just happen to play on winning teams." And there is a degree of truth to that.
It is much easier to abstract the contribution of forwards and defensemen who display exceptional skill despite playing on lesser teams and by extension achieving limited post-season accomplishments. (Mike Gartner is perhaps the best example of that.) But I'd suggest it's almost impossible to do the same for goaltenders as their statistics are inextricably tied to team success.
I remember Gilles Meloche quite well and he had some pretty good years in Minnesota in the early 1980s, including an unexpected trip to the Stanley Cup Final against the Islanders. It's a little known fact that Meloche was an member of the Oilers for 103 days during the summer of 1985, before Edmonton shipped him off to the Penguins for Marty McSorley and Craig Muni.
Just think: If Meloche and the Oilers had come to contract terms that summer, causing Edmonton to trade away Andy Moog a couple of years sooner, and Gilles had been backing up Grant Fuhr through the end of the 1980s, we might be looking at Meloche's career quite differently.
I'll admit that "pretty much guaranteed" might be slightly strong language to use with Sidney Crosby regarding his eventual induction into the HHOF. An injury could end his career tomorrow, and wipe out all that promise.
But just three seasons into his career and looking at the record thus far -- first overall draft pick, an Art Ross, a Hart, a Pearson, a berth in the Stanley Cup Final, 294 points in 213 games, captain of his team, the youngest player to achieve a number of statistical marks -- the kid is off to an excellent start. And he's become the face of the league, living up to the hype, and has a great supporting cast in Pittsburgh.
At this point the probabilities are strongly in Crosby's favour that he will be a likely candidate for the HHOF by the time he reaches the end of his career. It's just a matter of playing those games and continuing to meet that standard of excellence.
I'm a transplanted Canadian who now resides with my wife and three children in Redding, a small city in sunny northern California where hockey still gets prefaced with the word "ice." My new home is a long way from my hometown of Edmonton, but the web makes it all just a little bit closer. That's the most wonderful thing about the online community: no matter where you are physically, someone who shares your interests is only a mouse click away!
