There was a meeting of the minds in San Antonio that caused plenty of stirring Monday hours before Kansas hung on in overtime to beat Memphis for the NCAA title. When NBA commissioner David Stern and NCAA president Myles Brand convened to announce a joint attempt at sand-blasting the corruption from youth basketball, the obvious buzz took on legs afterward.
Can the NBA change the rule that just went into effect with the last Collective Bargaining Agreement – that players cannot enter the draft until their class has been in college two years instead of one?
Not without the consent of players association it can’t … and considering what happened during the last CBA negotiations, it isn’t likely to happen without a fight come the summer of 2011 when the present agreement ends.
Of course Brand would love to guarantee that the top drawer players would compete another year in the NCAA. But he has no say in the matter. It’s all up to Stern and the NBPA.
That’s not to say it doesn’t make sense to do and that Stern wouldn’t prefer that. Going into the last bargaining session, he did want to raise the age limit from 18 to 20 initially, but had to settle for 19 when the NBPA wouldn’t bite on it. They weren’t particularly thrilled with 19 either, but took it as a concession for an expanded salary cap. And why the NBPA won’t agree to it isn’t quite clear in the big picture if you look at what is best for the entire constituency.
Granted, giving a 19-year-old, or even an 18-year-old, the opportunity to earn a lucrative living in the NBA if he has the talent and is wanted is logical, legal and fits in with what goes on in every other professional sport except for the NFL. And because of the necessary physical development and the violence of the game, the NFL gets a free pass on this one. So the NBA players believe everyone should have the opportunity.
OK, we’ll buy that angle.
Being into geometry, let’s take another slant. Just consider the possibility of the six to 10 players a year who come out early and make a team are forced to play another year on the collegiate level. Not only would it give the players another year of physical and emotional development, it would create another six to 10 jobs for NBA veterans who otherwise are forced to play ball overseas, try one of the struggling U.S. minor leagues or find another means to make a living other than ballin’.
The latter seems far more logical in the big picture of the NBPA despite the overwhelming majority favoring no more than a 19-year-old limit.
Meanwhile, there are a lot reasons why so many young players entering the league had a negative impact, even dating to Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady, all of whom could have used a year or two in college. Obviously, that trio became superstars … but what about the early birds that didn’t?
It frustrated so many of the top basketball minds in the NBA. Men like Jerry West and Larry Brown continued to be distressed over how the NBA had become too much of a developmental league as opposed to getting young players who were finished products – at least with regard to the fundamentals of the game. There were too many young, super athletes coming into the league believing basketball was just about reverse dunks and chucking up 3-pointers instead of moving with the ball, moving without the ball, passing and defending.
As far-fetched as it may be, this is an admirable attempt by Stern and Brand to clean up the mess that now starts when kids are identified in middle school as special talents and showered with shoes and warmups and anything else that will help a particular ilk of salesman and booster get into the hearts of minds of kids and their parents.
It seems an impossible task for the NBA and NCAA, but nobody can fault them for trying. The problem is the same reason why the NBPA won’t agree to raising the age limit, and it has nothing to do with basketball.
Money.
It’s all about as many people making as much money from the game as possible. The odds of the age limit going up in the NBA are very slim at best. The probability of the NBA and NCAA eliminating the sleaze from youth basketball isn’t great either. But this is a great first step toward allowing the kids to focus on the game and not the ancilliary financial gains at least until they’re old enough to vote.
There's no need for an age requirement. It doesn't take much money to get in trouble these days, and players will have as much access to trouble in the NCAA as they will in the NBA (if not more trouble due to NCAA restrictions on money). So there's no justification on the basis of maturity.
As far as experience, teams have the choice of taking lack of experience into account when drafting players. But how many great college coaches are out there that we can honestly say can teach the fundamentals for a year or two and have it make a huge difference when the player turns pro. How well did Bo Kimble's experience on those ridiculous Loyola Marymount teams translate to NBA success? The annals of draft busts also include many collegiate champions from the most fundamentally sound programs.
The bottom line is that players are not significantly more NBA ready after college than after high school. The NBA game is a different beast entirely, and the season lasts a lot longer. Why not learn the real game as soon as possible, instead of forcing players to split their education between basketball and coursework in sociology?
And it's unconscionable to force somebody with a marketable skill to provide it for free at great risk of career ending injury.
I'm just curious, why only give the 6-10 vets two years of playing opportunity? Why not extend the limit to the full four years? I mean is an extra two years really going to affect a kid? And if it does affect a kid that much, wouldn't four affect him even more?
The problem with this is that all these ideas that the college player will be more mature after TWO years versus than one is off point. What's the difference between two years of slacking off in college and one year of slacking off in college? Two years of running in that crazy Memphis offense in college or one year running in that crazy college offense in Memphis? Two years of carrying a UCLA team that can't score or one year of carrying a UCLA team that can't score? Will Kevin Love get any less unathletic in two years than he would've been in one?
How did Greg Oden's college stint help him?
I'm all for two years. Hell, make it a prison term and make them stay in college for ten years. But that's from a fan perspective. From a player perspective, I can see why these guys want to get their money and run as fast as they can.
I agree with increasing the age limit IF the sole purpose is to prepare college players for life in the NBA and it improves the quality of the game itself. I would rather see young players develop their game at the college level first, then enter the NBA and make an immediate impact rather than developing their game while riding the bench for a NBA team. I think of players like Brandon Roy; his mental and physical maturity was evident on day one in the NBA and now his team is prime for a playoff run next year. Good article Kahn.
To me this is a no-brainer. Increasing the age to 20 helps both the NCAA and the NBA. How many players come out early and then don't play or play in the developmental league. Many of these players never recover after coming out early.
It's one thing to develop physically. There are a lot of great looking players in the collegiate levels, but honestly, how much does that translate into success. The players really need to look at developing mentally/emotionally/psychologicall y. There are a lot of boneheaded young guys coming into the NBA who think they are all that, but when it counts, they ultimately fail. Do you think Kevin Durant is capable of being a team leader? Joakim Noah? Al Thornton? Al Horford? These guys aren't there mentally. Now take some of the older rookies, who have had more experience in general; Scola, Navarro, Moon... these guys are capable of adding an extra element to their teams, and play a more fundamental style of game.
Getting the college players to play an extra year or two can only help their development in basketball, and hopefully life in general. Can teach them that they are human, and they have to take care of themselves.
It should be the NBPA's mandate to protect the players they represent during their career, but also give them a chance to survive comfortably after their careers are over. Not evey player is going to be offered a broadcasting job or a management job when they retire. Look at Latrell Sprewell...
For many people, especially at such a young age, 2 years is an eternity. Its easy for older people to look back and say, that 2 years is nothing. In the case of most young people, 2 years is a make or break proposition. Especially for a motivated, talented and intelligent young man. This age-requirment is a load of ####. Just another hoop that the society wants to make you jump through before you get a chance to do what God made you to do.
why is this such a big deal? NFL has a 3 year waiting list, and if you sign for baseball with a college you have to stay for 3 years.
this helps in the NBA in player development and familiarity with players. some high school kids we know, like lebron and oj mayo and oden. but what about the other 100 that we dont know until march madness? imagine if sebastian telfair went to college for two years to improve instead of being average pg on a horrible team? its better quality for the league.
this is no different from a company wanting college grads or master degree required or anything else.
This all about money plain and simple. If they increase the age to 20 that will mean more money for th NCAA!!!!!!!!!!! The kids making them all this money get nothing. What if they get hurt then they are SOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am sure the NCAA, schools, and boosters would love to be able to squeeze another year of free service out of their best players. Unfortunately, some players have responsibilities that extend beyond lining the NCAA's pockets.
Wonder what provisions would be made for the foreign players who did not play college ball, but went straight to the pros.
Tony Parker was playing pro ball in Europe when he was 15. He came into the NBA at 19. What would have been the rule for him?
Would they make him come to the states and play in college a couple of years. Couldn't do that because he was already a pro, so he would lose his amateur status.
I really dont care to much for this article or the meaning of this article, I would agree for them to go to college, longer that helps college views for television, since college ball was the worst it has ever been in along time this year, but.... I also should of threw in the high schoolers that made a huge impact. I can only think of one...lebron james that came out firing his rookie year.
Last edited by Azsportfanactic23 on April 8th at 10:51 AM.
bbing168: lol. So true. As counterintuitive as it seems, I don't see all that many guys really step up their game in college (the type of game that succeeds in the NBA). The NBA is played at such a higher level it is ridiculous. I think these guys deserve a choice, they have earned it, and nothing in life is guaranteed. If teams want to gamble on a young guy, that is their prerogative. As Hoffman points out, it is really not any bigger a gamble than taking a college kid. This rule might help the NCAA, but I am far from convinced it would help my favorite league, the NBA.
Spurcse: you raise an excellent point. I would love to see Stern try to explain why we should put USA high school players at a competitive disadvantage to their foreign counterparts, who turn pro at 15. Stern is such an elitist, he has completely lost touch with reality. It's not like the NBA is overrun with a bunch of stiffs drafted out of HS with no skills.
College is the best time in most people's life. I can see why Kobe and others think it would benefit players to go, but they should not make players go, it is unfair and I think unjustified. College should be about more than goofing off and balling; if it isn't, let the kid take care of himself and his family. This rule would only serve to delineate further the line between student and athlete, which is a shame. Free market capitalism baby.
If they really wanted to help the young, over hyped HS player with the jump to the NBA, they should force 18-20 yo kids to enter some kind of mandatory consulting program if they enter the league early, give him a mentor. Something to help them with financial planning and explain to them the value of high-character friends and family and the ever-present dangers of the posse/entourage. Provide them sobering examples of success stories and tragedies from a credible and friendly source.
Send the kid to college, there is no guarantee he gets any education or mature whatsoever. Also there is a significant chance he develops bad habits, gets involved with the wrong people, or develops a sense of entitlement that prevents him from developing or causes him to take booster money or other things that will get him in trouble.
The NCAA should be about pride and education. It is not Stern's free developmental league. It's a shame schools want the money and notoriety so badly they can't take their own standards seriously, this rule would only make it worse.
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Hoffman,
You should be asking yourself that question. Out of all those players you mentioned only a handful are or where successful stars, most of them are enjoying above average or average careers, some of them are unheard of, and some are completely busts.
If all those players had gone to college for at least a couple of years more of them would have turned to superstars, more would have enjoyed better careers, more would have been above average, and hardly any would be unheard of or a complete bust.
the NCAA is an absolute joke when it comes to player developement and their recruitment process is even worse.
the problem is not the age limit, it is the media hype surrounding these young players, the nba is partly to blame as well. if managers would draft sensibly and have a better evaluation of talent then there wouldn't have to be any age limit. if you can play you should be able to join the nba.
I'm definitly in favor of the 2 years rule. Sure Lebron was ready, Kobe was ready, etc etc but you don't think those guys could have benefited from 2 years in college? Definitly they would have. I'm tired of watching the current brand of basketball from the youth perspective. They play no defense and fundamentals are weak. They also are very immature and uneducated, for the most part, college would benefit these guys immensly from a basketball perspective and education perspective. It would also help the NBA talent level and it would be more enjoyable. Look at Brandon Roy, played all 4 years and came in and made an immediate impact on the Blazers and the NBA. If Kobe had gone to Duke, there would never had been an argument about his team play as it would have been ingrained in him.
Nice work there - I'd say about one third of those players have been total busts. And that's not even including Shaun Livingston with his career in peril because he wasn't physically developed; Kwame Brown not being anywhere near worthy of being a No. 1 overall pick.
And Darius Miles has been far more a problem and disappointment than a a positive influence considering his talent and what a high draft pick he was. And where does Sebastian Telfair fit in? A lottery pick now in his fourth season.
Clearly, it's been a problem. What we didn't mention were the international players (remember Nikoloz Tskitishvili the fifth overall pick of the 2002 draft by Denver, not to mention Darko Milcic second overall in 2003). That also got out of hand, and it brings to mind Jason Kapono and not getting drafted until the second round of that storied 2003 draft.
To paraphrase, "If I had grown a beard and changed my name to Kaponovich, I would have gone in the first round."
It's a copy-cat league and it has a lot to do with why the youngsters took over and lowered the level of play for 3-4 years. Fortunately, we've got the most competitive season I can remember going on right now.
you seemed as if you were trying to avoid it but you just couldnt..."another year of physical and emotional development"...people who try to spin this as if its all about doing right by the players are just plain dishonest
Consider this, Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, and LeBron James are MVP candidates this season. KG won his first MVP award in 2004. Dwight Howard and Amare Stoudemire were All-Stars this year. Kobe and Amare were 1st team All-NBA last season.
Kobe, LeBron, KG, Amare, and Dwight Howard are all deserving of All-NBA first team this season.
I'm going to write a blog on the subject today and I'd be honored if you would stop by later.
Needless to say, I believe the perception that NBA players "need" college is unfounded. I hope to prove that to be true.
I respect your opinion, but I don't think there is an "age issue."
College basketball is a major industry. Players at the major college level SHOULD GET PAID...The colleges exploit these young men and women in all sports for financial gain.
There would be less jumping to the NBA and NFL if they just got some spending money.
I think the age limit shouldnt have been raise in the first place. If guys are ready to come out why not let them. Playing guys who isnt on your level isnt making them any better. But i am glad they did raise the age to 19 so we can get to watch some of these super freshman who come on board. Maybe dudes can work on their Physicality and their Mentality but it wont be worth nothing compare to the physical workouts and mental things they go thru in the pros. I say it all the time, staying in college will only waist time.
Even though im glad they raised it to 19 so i can get to watch the players star on the college level, i still dont think it makes the players better. NBA players are ten times better then NCAA player. NCAA just have the passion but the talent isnt close.
I don't get it. Am I supposed to feel sorry for teams who bet on a young high school or foreign player and don't get a positive return on investment? WTF. That is the way the world works, with great risk comes great reward, but there is a flip side, otw it would not be a risk. Young guys are usually riskier than older guys, who doesn't know that?
Let me cry a few crocodile tears for Kopono. So he wasn't drafted highly... so what? People had legitimate concerns about his defensive liability, it was no guarantee his shot would become one of the best. Look at JJ Reddick!!! What a BUST. Kopono proved himself worthy after the draft, now he has money. I don't see anything intrinsically unfair in that. Some guys got paid big dollars they didn't deserve, but that is not a league issue, that is an individual team issue.
The greater good is not served by forcing kids to forgo income and experience and forcing colleges to relax academic standards just so pro scouts can get a better feel for their talent pool. Let the busts of the past serve as warnings for the future. If you can't afford the loss, don't take the risk. That's just good business (which many franchises don't understand).
The problem should simply not be addressed systematically, there will always be flaws in the system and guys taking unjustifiable risks. The bottom line is players need better advice and front offices need more wisdom and discipline. The 2 year "solution" guarantees neither.
I cannot agree with commenters saying that so many players drafted young are busts. The following "all-stars" all started at age 19 or younger:
Dwight Howard
Lebron James
Chris Bosch
Carelo Anthony
Kobe Bryant
Amare Stoudemire
Tracy McGrady
Kevein Garnett
Tony Parker
Gilbert Arenas
Jermaine O'Neal
Rashard Lewis
Ron Artest
Stephon Marbury
Shareef Abdur-Rahim
Recent young draft picks that are making major contributions:
Kevin Durant 20 points per game
Jordan Farmar 9.1 points per game
Andrew Bynum 13.1 points
Martell Webster 10.7 points
Louis Williams 11.4 points
Can someone name as many players that were drafted young and were a bust? I've heard Darius Miles mentioned. Please match the number of players that I've listed above.
Not all of the listed players played much the first year, but practicing with the best players in the world everyday will make them better players than practicing with college players that won't even get drafted. Playing to the level of the competition.
I don't have stats, but i would venture to guess that a larger percentage of draftees 19 and younger last longer in the NBA than those that are older.
For every Ray Allen or Dwayne Wade(Guys who stayed four years) There is a Kobe Bryant or Lebron James. Think about it. The best players in the NBA came straight out of High School or did only one year in College. I could name a bunch. NBA is a long journey, doesnt hurt them to develope a player for one or two years. I just dont believe a college coach can develope young players for the NBA. They will just be waisting time. Then they will have to develope them when they get to the NBA.
Lets not even talk about the injuries players could get playing at the college level.(A.J Price for example) College Rehab isnt like NBA Rehab. Infact A.J might have to Rehab that knee on his own over the summer. NFL i believe guys should do all four years.(cause you have to have the physical tools) NBA, (basketball period) i see the young boys give the business to the older guys.
Kahn it's funny how you make it sound like the NBA is the only greedy Business in the situation. I'm sure Brand really cares about these kids educations, he doesn't want money and TV time for having the best athletes, it's all in their best intrest...totally.
Am I the only one who actually ENJOYED NBA players coming out of high school? WHat's better than watching an 18 year old LeBron average 20 ppg against men who have been playing in the league for over 10 plus years, or an 18 year old Dwight Howard average a double-double against men who have won NBA championships? I love that shi t
I'd like to see an all star game between players that originally started out at age 19 and younger vs. players that waited to graduate from college. Anyone want to wager on who would win?
Last edited by InnocentBystander on April 8th at 12:59 PM.
Meanwhile, there are a lot reasons why so many young players entering the league had a negative impact, even dating to Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady, all of whom could have used a year or two in college. WTH??? You got this part all wrong. All three of these listed players made immediate impacts on their team and in a positive way. I don't think college would have helped them at all
I fully agree that there should be an age requirement. The Nba's demise has coincided with the continued jump of so many players. Maybe its just coincidence, or maybe its causation, no real way to tell. But what makes football so great, and what should make basketball better, is the opportunity for fans to learn about players in college, watch them play, and anticapate their arrival into the NBA. All of these prep to pro players, Only Lebron, Oden, and to a lesser extent Mayo had the hype, where one may have heard of them and or scene them play and been eager to watch them in the pros. It cheapens the league. Kobe couldn't play a lick of defense when he made the jump, and he had the body of a highschool kid. I think two years is the perfect amount of time, and thats what I hoped for the last go round. Accountants need 5 years of school. The level of comp is miserable in H.S., let the players adapt to real athletes in college. As for international players, dont allow them to play until 20 either. The NBA is still the premier league, players make the most money, (by a longshot), and College will allow those players to learn some necessary skills like team defense and passing that the Europeans are pushing. (WHy is Manu Ginobili being regarded as a statisitcal equal to Kobe Bryant if they played the same minutes?) Fact of life. A player in highschool, and every point in their life, should have to sit through the crummy times, in order to better mature mentally, and do the little things on the court. If you played highschool sports, you prolli sat on the bench your freshman ye
Kahn as always you do make a good point. and this is a great argument. \
Rick AZ you can go to College for four year and go to the draft and still not get picked. Players coming out early has the same opportunity as a player staying in college longer. I tell you this. D-wade and Lebron was drafted the same year. When d-wade retires Lebron might still have about 5 or 6 more years for him to play. D-wade is about 26 or 27 Lebron is 22 or 23. get my point.
Innocent Bystander
you forgot to name Monta Ellis. Straight out of high school second round pick, most improved player last season. He is going to be a star for many years. Took him one year and a different coach to develope him.
Oldtime, you mentioned 3 major MVP candidates. I don't get your argument. How could James, Garnett, or Kobe, possibly be any better. They are arguably the best 3 players in the NBA.
I get enraged when people propose paying college athletes. Sure, guys don't have money to blow on VIP rooms and take care of their family with scholarships and allowance, but it is AMPLE money to take care of their own needs.
Colleges have to make money to survive, but most are non-profit orgs. They are governed by strict rules regarding expenditures, it's not like they pay the president or AD zillions to be face men (like corporations). Actually, they are responsible for our society at large becoming more educated and raising the standard of living for many, not just star athletes. Should we steal from academic scholarships and grants so athletes can blow money on cars, drugs, etc? How many captains of industry, doctors, lawyers come from modest means and don't make any money until after college (some well after), but still decide to give back even though the college provided them no financial safety net? That is the spirit of college: pride, education, and reputation. If these athletes aren't grateful for those intangibles and the basketball experience, then don't let them through the door. Don't reward them for being short-sighted and greedy and further corrupt the system.
The less our academic institutions resemble semi-pro athletic leagues the better everyone, the college athlete included. College is about increasing one's personal equity, which is its own reward; not profiteering, showboating, and minimizing responsibility.
I'm not one who favors too many restrictions, but from a college recruiter's perspective, this one seems more practical. It's true, that it's the player's choice to forego college and go pro. However, I see it as insurance for the player's future. Most players who go pro don't become standouts. And with no degree to fall back on, many end up in working dead end jobs. What's more insulting is that these student athletes do well their first semester and slack off the next few. Their lack of commitment to their studies robs the opportunity for another that wasn't accepted. I think the straight out of high school idea made more sense than the 1 year college rule. Each school should make it their responsibility to make a student athlete's studies priority over athletics. Keep these kids to allow them to mature and understand why a college education is important.
Hoffman:
The NBA only drafts up thru 2 rounds. How many kids declared for the draft and were never drafted and/or signed as free agents? I think the answer to that question would be, many more then the number of players that you have listed.
The NCAA could solve part of the problem on their own by having kids sign a 2 or 3 year contract. If they decide to jump to the NBA then they need to buy out of the contract.
this is really a kahn game they're playing, here. making star athletes pretend to be college students for 9 months is one thing, but forcing two years of ncaa violations on a kid is another. why play the pretend game? there are just as many four-year busts as high school busts. only garbage teams drafts those losers, anyway. it's all about having a good gm and scouting department and assistant coaches who know how to develop talent. no one is a finished product out of college. and if they are, their probably not going to have great nba careers anyway. this is all a ploy to keep payrolls down in the nba and revenues up in the ncaa (which the players get NO cut of). young players drafted in 1st round who ride the bench get guaranteed scaled contracts, as opposed to old vets who ride the bench and get the vet minimum or mid-level exception, which is less than what the kids would get. see the math?
Let's face it it is all about the money but they are in business to make money. Have you checked the cost of tuition for college lately? The NBA and NCAA are business entities. If it benefits both, so be it. I think it's a great idea for the boys to be there for at least 2 years. If if were up to me, I would make it three like football and baseball and get rid of the age restriction, then if you think you are that good in high school, then go but if you go to college, you have to stay at least three years. It's all about commitment on both sides. One thing I would do and that would be to change some of the college rules to be more in line with the pros, especially the 3 point line. YOu can blow your knee out in practice so getting injured doesn't wash as to the reason for leaving early. If basketball was like football, no guaranteed contracts, how many players would be so quick to bolt to the NBA? um...........
All of these discussions are just silly. In the good ole US of A an 18 year old CHILD can be given a m16 and sent to Iraq to shoot and kill people for money but the NBA and the NFL think that it is so high and mighty that they can say that kids under 19 cant play a game for money. Sure the NCAA is just going to make more money from this rule and these kids are going to have to risk injury for no reward to them at all. NCAA basketball and football is HUGE money for colleges and zero for a player who gets hurt. The principle of this discussion is not if 18 year old kids are ready for the NFL or NBA. The question is if your kid is old enough to kill for his job he damn well should be able to have a beer or play pro ball and not have someone tell him hes to young or not mature enough to handle it.
Dunno maybe that is just way to simple for most people to agree with.
"Just consider the possibility of the six to 10 players a year who come out early and make a team are forced to play another year on the collegiate level. Not only would it give the players another year of physical and emotional development, it would create another six to 10 jobs for NBA veterans who otherwise are forced to play ball overseas, try one of the struggling U.S. minor leagues or find another means to make a living other than ballin’." -from article
I cannot believe that FOXSports actually paid this guy to write for them.
If they raised the limit, it would NOT create any new jobs for overseas veterans; it would only mean that the rookies coming into the NBA would be a little bit older. The actual number of the rookies still entering the league would remain the same; no new veteran jobs would be opened up. The only way it would create 6 to 10 new jobs for veterans is if they eliminated 6 to 10 of the draft picks altogether.
Hey, FOXSports: can we hire at least one basketball writer who possesses even an ounce of logic?
The problem isn't the colleges and it isn't the "student athletes". The problem is the NBA GM's who draft these kids and pay them absolutely ridiculous amounts of money to have them spend the next 3 years "learning" the NBA game. By the time the player is actually as good as he was hyped up to be, they opt out of their rookie deal and go somewhere else for mo' money.
If the NBA stopped drafting on potential instead of polish, this issue would cease to exist.
man way too much complaining going on around here. the NBA is a business and they want to set regulations for their employees. if the players dont like it, then go play in europe.
