Chris Webber announced his retirement after 15 NBA
seasons on Wednesday. Webber finished with career averages of 20.7 points, 9.8
rebounds and 4.2 assists. Becoming one of six players to to average at least 20
points, nine rebounds and four assists. Four of those players (Larry Bird, Wilt
Chamberlain, Billy Cunningham and Elgin Baylor) are in the Hall of Fame. One of
them (Kevin Garnett), will surely be inducted once he decides
to call it quits.
Will Chris Webber join that hallowed list of Hall of Famers?
Webber’s numbers are border line Hall of Fame worthy. Yet his career
averages are very similar to Hall of Fame power forwards Dave DeBusschere (16.1
ppg, 11.0 rpg, 2.9 apg), Elvin Hayes (21.0 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 1.8 apg), and Jerry
Lucas (17.0 ppg, 15.6 rpg, 3.3 apg). [Read]
Wow, Hoff, fantastic job again. I had no idea Webber was in such select company... STATISTICALLY SPEAKING.
I guess from here on out, Chris Webber will be Exhibit A, whenever we talk about how statistics are not the be all and end all measure of a player's greatness. There is NO WAY Webber is the same caliber of player as Larry Bird, Wilt Chamberlain, Billy Cunningham and Elgin Baylor -- or Kevin Garnett.
And this is a good thing to keep in mind when people are talking MVPs and throwing around statistics like they are the ultimate proof of their points.
I'd consider him of "second-tier" candidate. There's a pretty talented Hall-of-Fame "waiting list."
While Webber has the statistics, he didn't win any championships or break many records. Webber doesn't seem to fit the term "legend". I think that most Hall of Famers should have been players we'd consider "legends," if only during their own era.
He's a great player, maybe one day he'll get in, but he definitely isn't a first-ballot selection.
Those stats do suprise me but I don't think he is HOF material. He did have a couple of years where he could have been considered dominant but not not a career worth.
What about the cultural impact C-Webb had on the game while at Michigan? You can take down the banners and erase his name from the record books but the cultural impact remains to this day.
Honestly I've been surprised that there's been so much backlash the last few days to the idea that C-Webb is a HOFer.
I've always considered him an obvious HOFer even if you were to disregard the stats and just watched him play in his prime. I think people get a bit too caught up in the fact that he sucked late in his career cuz of the surgury and that he was so not clutch.
People dislike him personally because of the booster scandal. It's a shame that he's held to a different standard because he wasn't clutch and never won a ring. Like I said in the article, neither were/are Dirk and KG but everyone seems to assume they're first ballot hall of famers.
You and I were Laker fans in the early 2000's.
I've got a confession to make: I felt guilty when we beat the Kings in 2002. They were the better team that year. We just had Shaq and Kobe but I thoroughly enjoyed watching that Webber-led Kings team.
If I had to rank the best teams of this decade, that Sacramento Kings team would be in the top 5.
This was a seriously well-argued piece, Hoff, probably the best argument Chris Webber will ever have for the hall of fame, but it doesn't sway me that he should be in it, even considering his cultural impact on Michigan.
First, the statistical comparisons aren't apples to apples. Just looking down his career stats, the first thing that jumps out at me is that Webber NEVER ONCE PLAYED 82 GAMES A SEASON HIS ENTIRE CAREER. It's relatively easy to play at a high level for short bursts. It's another thing all together to sustain it for 82 games + playoffs. Webber never ONCE did that.
Second, just as Dirk is not"the best shooting big man of all-time" (Larry Bird, for example, has a higher career shooting percentage AND has a far better reputation than Dirk for coming through in clutch situations), neither is Webber was "the best passing big man of all-time." Again Bird had more assists per game, as did (of course) Magic, Wilt, Garrnett, etc.
And even though Bill Walton's career was cut short, Walton was a significant contributer to 2 NCAA championship teams, and to 2 NBA championship teams. Webber has no similar resume for his injury plagued career.
I HATED that Sactown squad the way I hated the Suns for the past few seasons, but you're right, you could easily argue that they were better than the Lakers that year. I think people forget just how good of a team that was before everything blew up.
By the way, I consider him a HOFer never even having experienced his college days. I mean I've read up on the Fab Five and seen clips and whatnot, but I consider him a HOFer based on his NBA career alone.
He always had these crisp passes and the slickest looking offensive game. There were times back in the day when I ranked him the best PF in the league (looking back it wasn't true, but that's just how I felt).
I'm surprised that people would take the booster thing so seriously. So he took money, so what? Jason Kidd had far worse issues at home and nobody seems to doubt his HOF status.
Come on...Larry Bird wasn't a big man. Dirk and Webber play power forward. Bird was a shooting forward.
Magic was a point guard. KG is NOWHERE near the passer C-Webb was. I never saw Wilt so I can't really comment on his passing skills.
Bill Walton won two titles under John Wooden. In a time where there was NO PARITY in the college game. It was UCLA and then everyone else. I consider Webber's trips to the NCAA Finals as a freshmen and sophomore as more impressive than Walton's 2 NCAA championships.
Also, Walton never played a full NBA season either. He won one NBA championship as the leader of his team. His second title came with him averaging 8 points and 7 rebounds a game.
I was fascinated with the Fab Five. So was every other kid who played basketball at the time. The Fab Five wore the Air Huarache's. I had to get em'. The Fab Five wore the black CB34's and black socks. I had to get em'.
I'm telling you, they changed the culture of basketball forever. They were the basketball Beatles. It's a shame that people have forgotten their impact on the game.
I always respected that Sac-town team. The Lakers/Kings series were CLASSIC. In my opinion, the ONLY series that has come close in the past decade was Suns/Spurs last season.
Tom, keep in mind that the reason C-Webb went home ringless is because he had to go up against one of the greatest duos of all time at a time when his Kings were looking for a ring. Kobe and Shaq kept rings off his fingers, Scottie Pippen's fingers, Rasheed Wallace's fingers, Tim Duncan's fingers (obviously after his first one and before his second one), and a hell of a lot of really great people.
And hell, he almost took down that Shaq-Kobe squad.
We don't hate on stars that didn't get a ring because of the MJ Bulls, and I think the same should apply to the stars that had to face the Shaq-Kobe Lakers.
Last edited by Lakersfan19II on March 28th at 5:00 PM.
"We don't hate on stars that didn't get a ring because of the MJ Bulls, and I think the same should apply to the stars that had to face the Shaq-Kobe Lakers."
Excellent stuff again Hoffman. I have always been an anti-Webber fan for some reason or other during his entire career. I'm sure a lot of it has to do with the whole Fab 5 thing at Michigan. Only Jalen Rose has enheartened himself with fans during his stints on Fox Sports over the years. Webber and Howard are still largely disliked amongst fans across the country. During his heyday he was definitely one of the best Power Forwards in the entire NBA. In fact, he could be argued to be somewhat on par with Karl Malone when Sacramento was a force in the NBA. I'm afraid that his Michigan history, playing in 2nd tier markets, never reaching an NBA Finals, and overall dislike by the NBA fan base will keep him out of the Hall. Does he deserve it? Great question. Put him on the Knicks or Lakers during his heyday and he would be a lock. Put him in DC and Sacramento without a Finals appearance much less a title and that is a whole different story. Nice tribute on a tough subject. But I think you found the right argument. Well done.
Thanks Nos. I have to admit, Webber's career is kind of near and dear to my heart. I was 13 and 14 years old when the Wolverines were the hottest team in basketball. I'm a Laker fan and I loved every minute of those Lakers/Kings series. It was probably the best basketball I've ever seen over 7 games.
I find it sad that he could be denied because he never won a championship. I've said this many times, but so much of a player's legacy is determined by chance. He ran into the Christian Laettner (probably the best collegiate player of all-time, you could make an argument for Jabbar...) led Blue Devils and the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, who were the second greatest duo in the history of basketball.
Larry Bird wasn't a big man? Some sites have Webber at 6'9", some at 6'10" ... Larry was 6'9" ... that isn't right?
And just because Magic was a point guard doesn't make him any shorter. He was a great passing big man. He shouldn't be penalized for being such a great passer and ball handler that they didn't play him at power forward. Usually. :-)
Frankly, if we are measuring passing ability by assists, Webber was not the best passing big man of all time.
If we are measuring passing ability by how cool the passes are, then Webber is definitely up there, but then so is Vlade Divac, Arvydas Sabonis, Toni Kukoc, Detlef Schrempf, etc.
And I'm not sure how many Celtics games you caught since Garnett came to town, but when he has skilled teammates, he sure can pass well.
I'm with you on comparing Webber's NCAA trips to Walton's though. It was a different era.
And I know what you mean about that Kings team. And that was twice that Phil Jackson stood in the way of Rick Adelman's ascension to more elite coaching respect. It will be interesting if the Rockets and Lakers meet in the playoffs again this year.
Adelman's ball movement basketball is SO much preferable to the Hornets offense by the way. I get tired of watching Chris Paul dribble until 10 seconds are left on the clock, then toss the ball to some pick and roll comrade to score.
Speaking of the Rockets, McGrady is another similar sized player who is a great passer.
Hoffman,
I am grateful you write such meaningful and well-researched articles. Once again, I thoroughly enjoyed this piece. I agree with you and Lakersfan1911 completely. Chris Webber is a first ballot HOFer for me absolutely, for all the reasons you mentioned. Back in the early part of the decade, whose teams were relevant other than those of Duncan, Shaq/Kobe, and C Webb? No other team with any consistency (maybe Utah in the early part). 5-50 win seasons and the playoff runs for the Kings as the leader means a lot to me. Webber was one of the greatest superstars and teammates in the game for the better part of a decade.
Tom7, I always enjoy your posts, but I have to point out something: you argue that stats are not the determining factor, then you say KG is a better passer than Webber. That is ridiculous (also, all those big men you mentioned weren't really big men).
Okay Tom, maybe big man was the wrong description to use. Name a power forward or center who was a better passer than Webber. I can't come up with one. I've watched KG plenty this season, I'm watching him right now in fact but he's not the passer C-Webb was.
I'm not judging him by assists either. I'm talking about passing skill. Webber was a very skilled passer. Not only have people forgotten what he did with the Kings but the Pistons were struggling last season until they brought in Webber. He jumpstarted their offense because they ran it through him at the high post.
I see that I'm not going to be able to change your mind though. Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree. :)
Also, you mentioned Bird and Magic's height. How much did they weigh compared to C-Webb? Sorry, had to throw that one in there...
Lakersfan, great point about people needing to consider the greatness of the Kobe/Shaq combination in the early 2000s when evaluating their competition, like we do when we look at players who went up against Jordan/Pippen's Bulls. C Webb definitely gets my Barkley/Stockton/Malone pass.
Thanks. That means a lot to me. I spent a lot of time on this one and in my research I discovered that part of the Hall of Fame application process involves a nomination packet consisting of a completed nomination form procured from the BHOF, and news clippings, magazine articles or other informative, factual data about the candidate.
Every sports media outlet seems to be dismissing Chris Webber's chances at the Hall. Maybe this can change one or two people's minds...at least give them something to think about.
Reading up on the comments, and seeing what a long time fan of Webber's you've been, I'd say that is where our gap in perception lies.
Either I'm too old or too remote in Alaska, but I definitely missed the whole Beatles, changing the culture of basketball forever aspect Webber in college.
And Webber's college booster thing doesn't taint my
assessment of his on court accomplishments.
As I tried to say in my earlier comments, I think Webber was a great player. I liked him, I enjoyed watching his passing, I feel he absolutely was a very skilled passer, and I liked his game over all, but he just isn't in the same class as Larry Bird, Wilt Chamberlain and Elgin Baylor.
Seriously, I never considered Webber a hall of fame player, but then again, I don't know who half the guys are in there anyway, so maybe he is.
Sabonis was real nice. I couldn't chose between him and Webber on pure passing, both are about as good as it gets in my book. Webber had sick handles too.
Like I always say, we're playing in a different world now, one in which numbers and fantasy cred are everything.
In that regard, KG is God, and the likes of Chris Webber are divine as well. But overall, in the real world, in terms of impact on the game, and impact for his team, I don't think Webber was anything that special. He was a good player for a long time but never really a great one.
The one thing about Webber's game that stood out to me was how easy it was for him to finish with a dunk. Anytime he was near the hoop, he'd throw it down. Great knack for scoring under the hoop even when he had two or three guys on him.
But never great. That's just my opinion. In my mind, I rank him behind Kemp and Sheed in terms of impact on the game.
As far as being a great passer, eh, there were many great passing big men. I don't think Webber's passing skills stood out any more than Brad Miller 's. Shaq was a great passer too. Brad Daugherty. Duncan. Etc. Sabonis was tremendous.
Last edited by TrainOntheBall on March 28th at 6:40 PM.
Take a look at Dave DeBusschere, Elvin Hayes, and Jerry Lucas' careers. All three are Hall of Famers. DeBusschere was a great defender but the only thing that really separates them from Webber is championships. Now, if you believe that's enough than I respect that. I don't though. I think the fact that Webber led the Fab Five to two straight NCAA championship games and came within one game of winning two NBA championship at the hands of the Shaq/Kobe Lakers should be taken into account.
C-Webb's #'s and career accomplishments speak for themselves. Combine that with the cultural impact he had on the game of basketball and he's a Hall of Famer in my book.
You could argue if he weren't injured so often he would have been better, but that's besides the point.
He is not a Hall of Fame caliber player.
In my opinion, if the opinions on a player's candidacy for the Hall is 50-50, he shouldn't get in. There should be an overwhelming sentiment that the player was deserving.
"BEST HE EVER FINISHED IN THE MVP VOTING WAS 7TH."
Where did you find that stat? Basketball-reference.com? Because I show he finished 4th in 2000-2001. The same year he was All-NBA 1st team when he beat out KG, Malone, and Dirk for the honor.
You can't simply compare DeBusschere to Webber, and say, "well, if one is in, the other should be in too."
DeBusschere was a team player playing in a different era. Had he played in an NBA similar to the one Webber played in, DeBusschere would be this monster of a player with perhaps a few MVP awards.
My father talks about the guy like he was one of the top ten players he ever saw. Tremendous defender and tremendous shooter. Everybody respects DeBusschere, and everybody agrees he was great.
When it comes to Webber, it's going to be 50-50 at best. I think most people will say, "he was good, but not great."
Like I said, I think Sheed and Kemp were/are way better and I doubt either will make the Hall.
How do you feel about Webber's contribution to the culture of basketball? I know you were a fan when the Fab Five was doing their thing. Their impact was tremendous.
Besides, awards like Most Valuable Player and those fortunate to win NBA championships has a lot to do with timing. Kobe has been widely regarded as the best player in the game for the past 3-4 years and yet he's never won an MVP. Switch the careers of T-Mac and Kobe (despite the fact Kobe is clearly the better player) and maybe T-Mac has a ring or two.
Would Kobe be a Hall of Famer then? He should be but he probably wouldn't be a clear cut choice either.
Dwyane Wade won a ring with Shaq, if he and LeBron's careers were to end today, would you vote for James or Wade as a Hall of Famer?
The championship team DeBusschere and Lucas played on was STAR-STUDDED.
Thanks, Dr., but I don't think I said KG was a better passer, I said KG was passing better since he became a Celtic.
Also, I tried to say that ***IF*** you are measuring Webber's passing statistically, then Webber is not the best passing big man. But if you are "measuring passing ability by how cool the passes are, then Webber is definitely up there."
In other words, I tried to talk about it statistically and not statistically.
--- Hoff
Yeah, but when Walton was with the Celtics, he won the NBA's 6th man of the year that championship year.
I'm not saying Webber wasn't great. I'm not saying he wasn't a great passer, one of the best at his position, I'm just saying I never thought of him as a HOF player.
wow. this is a look at webber i never saw before, great numbers. i say yes, but im a webber fan and a little bias. i only hope Q Public sees this blog. nice job hoffman
Cultural impact with the Fab Five? [insert British Accent] Good heavens, man, what are you talking about?
There are three things people remember about the Fab Five. One: it was comprised of Freshmen. Two: it featured three players who ended up in the pros. Three: it had a guy who called a time-out when his team didn't have any and thus cost his team a title.
Any publicity that came from this team wasn't due to Webber. It was due to the media selling a team that started five freshmen, that just so happened to be really really good. Who cares? Nobody. What cultural impact did this have except the fact that it happened? None.
The first thing that comes to mind when you hear the name "Chris Webber," is that he's the greatest goat since Bill Buckner.
I just turned to a guy next to me who knows basketball well, and asked, "Chris Webber: Hall of Fame?"
And he responded, "yeah, maybe the NCAA Hall of Fame."
He will always be regarded as a loser. That was just who he was. He almost missed the big shots, if he didn't defer them to teammates. He played on bad teams with the exception of those stacked Kings teams. That's his legacy, fair or unfair.
A good player who never amounted to his potential.
Lol. I really think you're doing Webber and the Fab Five a disservice my friend. They influenced the game from a cultural standpoint. They were trend-setters. They weren't the first ones to wear extra-baggy shorts but they brought it to suburbia.
The hip-hop influence that basketball has now, started with Chris Webber and the Fab Five.
He may have 'lost' twice in the NCAA championship game but he got there. He may have 'lost' in the NBA playoffs but he gave Shaq and Kobe all they could handle. How many teams can you think of that would have beat those Laker squads? I can only think of one, maybe two. Jordan's Bulls and Bird's Celtics. Magic is already on record as saying the team would have beaten any Laker squad he was on.
DeBusschere was a stud though, that's what I'm saying.
He was the equivalent of say, Manu Ginobili, last year or two years ago. He put up modest numbers and played a key role. But meanwhile, everybody and their mother knew if Manu played on the Hawks or some team that would allow him to run and gun freely, he'd be a 25-points-per-game scorer and MVP candidate. That was DeBusschere.
I mean... I think many people, if not most, who saw both players would tell you DeBusschere was a much better player than Webber.
To me, Webber was always a very good player. He was never a great player. He never was the best forward in the league, ever. None of his teams ever won anything. I can't give it to him. He never was a s good as we all thought he would be.
I didn't intend to take anything away from what DeBusschere accomplished. He is, like you say, a legend. He was before my time but going from his career accomplishments and numbers, I'd say the only thing that separates him from Webber was his championships.
Was he ever the best player on his team? No. The guy played with Willis Reed and Walt Frazier. Not to mention Earl Monroe and Jerry Lucas. That's like the people who claim Bill Russell was better than Wilt when Wilt killed Russell most of the time.
Russell was a champion but the guy played with seven Hall of Famers.
C-Webb wasn't Shaq but he never played with Kobe. Webber played with Peja and Mike Bibby. Think anyone will remember those guys in 20 years?
I respect that. Thanks for offering your opinion. Good win tonight against the Hornets. KG continues to impress. If not for that unfortunate injury, he would have won MVP. Maybe he still deserves it...
I can't help but feel like folks hating on Webber didn't watch him play enough. Either that or I'm just a complete ####. I honestly had no doubt in my mind that C-Webb was a HOFer.
Shawn Kemp's glory days were a bit before my time so a lot of my knowledge about him comes from research, but what exactly did he do so great besides dunk the ball off of perfect passes from Payton?
"Chris Webber is the best passing big man of all-time."
Arvydas Sabonis and Bill Walton called, they'd like a word with you. Meanwhile, Wes Unseld wonders why everyone always forgets him.
Here's the thing, if Sacramento could get a rebound or Horry doesn't make that shot, we aren't even having this discussion. Webber gets his ring and miraculously goes from a "loser" to a "winner". That's how so many people perceive things, and it's just ridiculous. Everybody is willing to make excuses for Karl Malone and Patrick Ewing because they played in the Jordan era, but nobody seems to care that Webber's best Sacramento teams ran into one of the most dominant postseason teams of all time, Even though his Kings teams twice took the Lakers to an elimination game.
What's the difference between Webber and Bill Walton? Walton won a title, but other than that his career pales in comparison. He could never stay healthy, he played effectively two good seasons, he once quit on his team for an entire year and he never averaged 20 PPG despite playing in a very high-scoring era. And yet he's a sure-fire, no-doubt Hall of Famer.
Webber deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, and there's no question about that in my mind.
"Here's the thing, if Sacramento could get a rebound or Horry doesn't make that shot, we aren't even having this discussion. Webber gets his ring and miraculously goes from a "loser" to a "winner". That's how so many people perceive things, and it's just ridiculous. Everybody is willing to make excuses for Karl Malone and Patrick Ewing because they played in the Jordan era, but nobody seems to care that Webber's best Sacramento teams ran into one of the most dominant postseason teams of all time, Even though his Kings teams twice took the Lakers to an elimination game."
I love basketball. While many basketball fans enjoy the month of March, I prefer the months of April, May, and June. I look forward to productive chats, heated debates, and honest opinions.
