I have up-dated the Montoya and Clint deal with more frames.
First let me say sorry for being late, still got some BLEEP ches on computer and to get 55 frames up on line takes awhile. Not that I can show all 55 frames on one post. So I got to break it down to at least 2 post. So what was the big deals ? It seems from bloggers Montoya should be gone from NASCAR for spinning Clint Bowyer. Not to much was said about Kevin Harvick doing the same thing to Dave Blaney, or that Clint block Dave down on the yellow line with 50 laps still togo in the race and is lucky Blaney didn't dump him then.
Should I stop ? No. Dale Jr ran Kurt Busch into the grass and Gregg Biffle ramed/bumped Kasey Kahne making him loss control headed tords the infield. Jimmie Johnson gets loose in turn and before he can get it back is nudged by Sam Hornish that had nowhere to go but into Jimmie to finish him off. Tony Stewart gets loose from Dale Jr just being up close to him. All of a sudden the names above can't drive at Daytona ?
Now what was the biggest thing all the drivers and the announcers were telling us from the start to finish about this COT ? That they can get such a run on another car with the extra horse power and the bump draft or just a draft alone. They all were all some what rookies when it came to this car for this Daytona 500 with track conditions never being the same as it was for the other races and pratice. So they said.
The average speed when it was shown was around 184 MPH to 187. Now with a run or bump draft they could reach 196 MPH. Lets go with 187 MPH thats 9 MPH more with a run on a car. When you see it that way you can see why we had alot of cars bumping more.
Now lets look at some of the big ones. Montoya's run on Clint.
Now as we can see Clint gets a run on Jeff Burton with Montoya in the same path as him and Ryan getting pushed by Biffle.
Now we have a drag race between Clint and Ryan with little help now, noted Ryan got a great push by Biffle and Clint was all horse power.
Now the #07 has hit a brickwall and is not increasing his speed like Ryan is. Now Montoya who thought Clint would pass Jeff Burton is now slowing up. Got Kyle I can put this car on its roof and pass you Busch steam rolling up on his rear and Don't tell me Montoya dosn't know who is behind him and wasn't worn by his spotter that is the car to beat.
The above pictures tells it all, Look at Kyle on the left pick and then on the right how close he is now on Montoya's rear bumper, So that inside line is coming fast. Biffle is still back due to he gave the push so hard that it slowed him up alittle and couldn't stick with Ryan. This made Clint a sitting duck cause of the jump he got. If Ryan had done the same thing Biffle would be on Ryans bumper by now. Now this when Montoya made his mistake bye not getting right behind Clint and taps his left rear bumper instead, or would it have made a differents if he had hit him even.
. Why did this happen and what is different from any of the other times the field catches a car or cars out front is that Jeff Burton is not moving as fast has the two that past him and is blocking the middle.
UP-DATED - Now I will add more to this showing back and top. Now this first one I line up Montoya with Jeff Burton and Montoya here is not touching Clint from the sky view. After this he is touching Clints bumper.
Now we have contact and the next few frames will be what they will be.
A few more frames and now you can not say the bumpers are not touching. Clint is still showing no signs of loosing his car.
A few more frames and Clint's car starts to show loosing it.
All of a sudden or split seconds Montoya was traped with a run on Clint, It has happen all race long and what to do, Can't go high cause Jeff Burton is in the way. Can't go low cause the yellow line is out of bounds. One more thing I will point out is on this frame Clint is lower then Montoya to the yellow line. Look at the rear spoilers to compair below.
Even another frame showing Clint is lower then Montoya.
So Clint is lower then Montoya at this point and keeps driffting up the track and not down like someone thinks. If you look at the pics above and follow them down Montoya is even and starts to go lower seeing Clint is moving up the track. Anyway I feel it was Montoya's fault for Clint spinning out, but feel it was just hard racing and Montoya didn't do anything different from Kevin Harvick,Gregg Biffle who all bump drafted a car sending it off track.
Now lets look at Kevin Harvick. I will say this and then run the frames. When I start them Dave Blaney will only move forward of Montoya's left front tire and Kevin will go the hole length of Monya's car.
Now Kevin hits Blaney even across the bumper and it still knocks him loose. So even if Montoya hit Clint even we don't know if that would have made a differents.
Part 2 I will show the other stuff like Clint blocking Dave Blaney and Biffle giving Kasey a wild ride and Dale Jr getting Tony losse. This blog is showing my opinion of what happen and it is not in anyway showing hate tords a driver or drivers. Like I said above Dale Jr cutting off Kurt Busch in the race. Dale Jr is my favorite driver and if he has done a bone head move I will say it and show it.
F2...this was incredible! Yay...I can't believe you compiled this.......ok..can't believe there's part 2. Now, after viewing this, I don't think Montoya should be yelled at. he had nowhere to go, and maybe it's my newness to Nascar, but I can't see how this was his fault. And I'm not a JPM fan. Thanks for doing this! This was a lot of work. God bless ya.
F2,
More great work on your part but still not definitive in my mind. If you analyze the photos from above, I still can argue that Clint's car has either slid or been driven up off the bottom groove B4 the moment of impact. What I see is that he has moved a foot or two higher on the track before any shot shows contact while not traveling very far forward.
To me that looks like he has to have been sliding, and thus scrubbing speed, before the actual contact. The bottom-line is that I think all but the diehard Clint fans know JPM had absolutely nowhere to go without creating an even bigger mess. He did the right thing and the best thing ANY driver could have done in terms of avoiding creating the big one. Thanks again for all your efforts.
It's no wonder this has created so much discussion when even with a frame by frame breakdown you still can't really prove whether Clint was or wasn't already sliding up the track although I know you think you have proven that. Wow, and basketball officials think block or charge is a tough call. Imagine the players moving at 180 mph plus. Again kudos. Great stuff.
Forensic - I think some of the debate comes from watching this sequence at full speed because Montoya "looks" very unstable in the draft whereas Bowyer "looks" to be cruising along, giving the impression Montoya was out of control up there.
Lisa - Part 2 is already up, this is a repost with more photos from the first time I posted it. Thanks.
Hoosier - If you look at them Clint is below Montoya and as he passes Jeff Burton he has come up away from the yellow line. His car is not slidding up or you would see his rear slidding up. even if he did slide his rear dosn't come out untill Montoya has mad contact. Meaning he was still in control of his car till contact.
First you said before no pics to prove contact. now its he was sliding.
Klvalus - He is not out of control more then any of the other drivers up front. If he see's Clint moving up away from the yellow line and he has got a run he is going to go low. Not that Montoya has not been out of control before.
All I wanted to show was Clints dosn't loos his car untill Montoya is touching his rear bumper. thanks
Last edited by Forensic2 on February 21st at 9:47 AM.
I really wish I could see the pictures...all I get are blank white spots. Stupid firewall.
Believe it or not, if I saw something in those pics that would clear JPM, I would be the first to say I was wrong. But I haven't seen anything yet that absolves JPM. All I can go by is the replay on TiVo. It clearly shows the 42 getting into the 07, and the 07 spun. As far as I'm concerned...that's the only thing that we can all agree on. The how's and why's can be debated for the next 100 years, and will never be conclusive.
I have been saying all along that this incident, to me, has been part of a pattern. That JPM seems to find or make trouble on the track, depending on your perspective, isn't really a debatable issue. He's done it often enough since he came to Cup racing. It happens often enough that it can't just be mere coincidence. And this is what I have a problem with. I mean, I just don't see how Juan can be in the wrong place at the wrong time...so often.
I don't care about what "might" have happened. If JPM checks up or goes low or goes high...we'll never know what would have happened for sure. We can guess and hypothosize, but since JPM decided to clonk Clint...that is all that can be honestly debated. What would I have him do? I dunno...not spin the guy in front of him.
I also don't care what other drivers did in that race. Sure, Harvick took out Blaney. But I'm not talking about Harvick. He wasn't the subject of my original blog. If that is unfair of me....tough ####. It's my blog, and I don't have to be fair.
Last edited by BigDaddySS on February 21st at 9:41 AM.
Forensic...so what's your opinion? Honest eval of this. I see the updated photos. While there was contact, I don't think it was due to anything other than just racin'. No intent on being overly aggressive by JPM....it was just part of restricter-plate racing. What say you? (Can you believe I was the fist to post a comment on a Nascar blog? I know you must have fainted)
This hits all. We all know at Daytona any car or 2 cars get a jump on the pack, the pack is going to catch them and at faster speeds then them. I see even if Kyle was switch with Montoya, Kyle would have bumpped Clints Bumper, Maybe even to it instead of to one side.
To say Montoya has not been around things and done things to make him look like he dosn't care about the other drivers, etc. Is wrong to say. But I don't look at the past, only what is infront of me.
This time and only this time I don't think Montoya did a evil or hate bump. I rack it up to the extra horsepower and him being boxed in. So I under stand why Big Daddy feels the way he dose and respect that. I am going only by what happen this race.
It is the same thing happen to Tony Stewart when he made contact with Kurt Busch and everyone said it was on again. I saw a bump between 2 drivers on the track, nothing that has'nt happen before. Then I see one of the drivers raming the other one in the pits. Thats not what you see everyrace. lol
BTW Hoosier - I have done frame by frame post now on many races last year when you were getting some time off. I never said I was proving that Clint was slidding up the track in this post. So for you to say I think I have proven that is out of line.
I have taken the time to do frame by frame when the NASCAR family to be up in arms over something on here. I give my opinoin on breaking the frames down and some agree and some don't. I have had some say they were sorry for getting it wrong too.
I tell them hey it happens all the time and I have had to say I got it wrong. As long as it stays friendly between nascar fans and family on here.
cheers
F2,
Boy I'm having a lot of trouble communicating this week. What I was saying about what your frame by frame pics show is that I can interpret them to show Clint losing momentum prior to any contact thus CAUSING the contact (which until your efforts had not been confirmed to my satisfaction) BUT that the same frame by frame analysis by you proves YOUR position on the incident to you. I'm sorry you took it to mean I thought you were saiying your pics proved Clint was sliding. To you I know they don't. To me, I think they do show him moving up the track and losing momentum before JPM gets to him AND I also believe JPM might have had a more squared up contact had Clint not moved up or slid up the track. Bottom-line, we disagree on what the frame by frame breakdown shows and that's fine. But I apologize for not making my point more clear.
Last edited by HoosierRacer13 on February 21st at 5:06 PM.
HR13 - We will always disagree on some things. What I showed in the frames was Clint near the yellow line and as the frames move on he moved up the track while passing Burton away from the yellow line. You think he was slidding up the track and loosing momentum, loosing momentum and passing Burton at the same time would make you think Burton was slidding.
It is at the same time Ryan is slowing up. They both hit a wall of air I think.
Clint still in control of car all the way till Montoya has made contact. That is what I see.
You see something else or you don't see what you wanted that is fine. I can't make the frames speak. The drivers will do that and maybe on Sunday preshow will hear from Clint and Montoya. Cheers.
F2 No reason to continue to beat this dead issue but just for the record, if Bowyer got a run on Burton which caused him to enter the corner a little faster than his tires could handle at that moment, that could cause him to slide without Burton sliding. Bottom-line, I think we both agree JPM didn't intentionally wreck him and that JPM took the best that he could have out of the situation, at least for everyone in the field but the 07.
GGW Racing, Frame by Frame, Show Your Moon Tour Blogs are what you get. Sorry all who like my music but for now its on hold cause it was the thing locking my computer up on here. Till I get the sound card figure out.
