The sports media is having a field day criticizing Hank Steinbrenner for saying Joba Chamberlain should be in the Yankees rotation. Speculation has already begun on where Brian Cashman will end up after he quits the Bombers in righteous indignation over little Stein's meddling.
Nonsense.
First off, baseball is the family business. A business the senior Steinbrenner managed fairly well for a number of years. Was George wrong and rash and rude? Sometimes all at the same time. But there is a fair amount of hardware in the trophy case thanks to his spending and maybe just a little because he wasn't afraid to shake things up.
So now Hank can't follow in his dad's footsteps? Cashman is beyond criticism? Joe Girardi should have a lifetime contract free of suggestions from the big guy?
The media would portray Cashman and Girardi as modern day versions of Scarlett O'Hara. "Why, ah declair, ah must lie down. Mistah Steinbrenner has spoken most unkindly to me and ah believe ah have the vapors."
These guys are being paid to take orders, and they are also paid to have enough backbone to push back when the advice they are being offered is bad. Somehow I think the Yankee management team will survive.
And consider this. Hank Steinbrenner ended the Joe Torre years in the Bronx. It wasn't popular, it wasn't what the media wanted, but it was time and it needed to be done. And Hank did it. At this point last season New York was having similar pitching woes and imploded while the ever serene Torre took no risks.
It's April 2008 and the Yankees are 11-10. The professionals say Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy deserve patience while they struggle to bring their ERA's under 8.00. Steinbrenner says put Chamberlain in the rotation.
Why not?
The RedSox are 15-7, the Yankees 3 1/2 back. How far does New York fall behind while "the plan" for Chamberlain rocks along? 7 games? Ten games? Until you make the inevitable move and then listen to the same media types proclaim it is a sign of panic?
But what about the 8th inning? The 8th inning is just that. One inning. An inning you are either ahead or behind in. An inning that takes care of itself at 90% of the time no matter who the reliever is.
Why is it starters go seven, setup men bridge the 8th, and closers must be brought in during the 9th? Because mind numb managers have been programmed to repeat the formula by rote until they end up believing it. Which is one more reason why managers, including Joe Torre, seldom have any impact on the outcome of pennant races.
Imagine it is 1938. The Indians have a wild right hander named Bob Feller who can occasionally hit either side of 100 mph. What did they do with the 19 year old? They pitched him. And pitched him again until he struck out 240, walked 208, and somehow managed to learn what the game was about.
In 2008 a 22 year old is treated like a piece of porcelain. A pitcher who struck out 169 batters in 113 professional innings last season is reserved for portions of the game which do not determine the outcome. It is what 99% of GM's would do. It's what 95% of managers would do. And it is wrong, unnecessary, and ultimately will push back Chamberlain's progress as what everyone envisions him to be.
A starter.
If you go to the pond there's two things you can do. Fish or cut bait. Hank Steinbrenner wants to fish. And I'm alright with that.
God i hate to do this, we are usualy on the same page. BUT, i think to get a real feel for Hanks Baseball knowledge,you have to pool all his comments. I think the apple fell off the tree and rolled away. And i dont think you can compare Feller and Chambelain. Feller pitched when pitchers went 9 all the time and there weren't all these specialists in the bull pen like today. But they do need pitching, BADLY.
blue@orange-You make an interesting point about the eras being different. I'm convinced (without anything to back it up) that bringing the mound down to nine inches from fifteen is the reason pitchers keep going down with arm injuries. That, in fairness, is the other side of why the Yankees are being so careful. Then again, he's 22. How long do you wait?
Rev-Baseball is funny like that. If I bought a football team tomorrow there is no way I'd give the coach advice. If I bought a baseball team, different story. I think we all grew up with the game and it's simple enough that we all think we could be the manager of GM.
I'm split on whether Chamberlain should become a starter. I think that we live in an era of baseball where having a quality setup man and closer is a very successful formula, because it means you only need 6-7 innings out of your starter. Not only does this give insurance in most of your games, because the starter doesn't need to venture into innings where he's more likely to give up runs, but it also allows your starters to use more of their energy in the beginning innings because they know they don't have to go as long. It is for these two reasons that I understand why having a good setup man is so important.
However, he is only important if you can get there. Assuming Wang and Pettite normally win, Mussina splits, and Hughes and Kennedy normally lose, that's 500 baseball. I understand the patience of the Yankee management with the young pitchers. If they start doing well midseason that's 82 games of 500 baseball and 82 games of 700 baseball - enough for the postseason and you are in very good shape in the postseason - and you have 4 great starters, a good extra reliever in the bullpen and a great setup man and closer. The Yankees will be set. Then again, why does Chamberlain have to be this setup man? Why not Hughes or Kennedy? As I mentioned before, you have to get there for the strategy to be effective. Maybe your best pitcher should be a starter. A mediocre (not bad) setup man can blow maybe 5 more games in the year - a bad starter 10 more.
You mention that the Yankees shouldn't fall behind the Red Sox too much. Well my answer is - why not? So the Yankees don't make the playoffs this year, I don't care. I'd much rather not make the playoffs and have two 15 year starters than make it and not. Especially since Pettite, Mussina, and Rivera are all getting old. Yankee fans live too much in the current season. The Red Sox and the mid-90s Yankees knew you had to build a team from the bottom up, and sacrificed a few seasons to do that. The only way the Yankees can be World Series competitive with a well-rounded team, as opposed to just playoff competitive with a bought one, is to develop their players. If it means we don't make the playoffs this year, oh well.
Finally, I disagree with your analysis on Steinbrenner's rightful influence. He may write the checks, but he also makes the money. Leave the winning up the the professionals. Baseball is a game of entertainment, and it's more fun when the manager can do his job. It is not a game of property rights.
Mk7676-1-Thanks for the insightful comments. I know Cashman is a very good GM, but in this case he is probably wrong. Statistically, teams that go into the 8th with a lead are going to win so often that I don't think you need a top caliber pitcher to accomplish that. Granted, maybe leads are less secure in the AL because of the DH, but still they are secure to an impressive degree.
Somebody posts a well thought out opinion, and it's spin? Please.
New York media is responsible for half this ####.
If Yanks were playing in Podunk nobody would give a care and the owner would fall into obscurity. New York media jumps on everything the Steinbrenners do and say and always have. Sure Hank has put his foot into his mouth a couple of times, but to write off the leaders behind the most successful sports franchise in history is ignorant and silly. George changed baseball, period. Anyone with half a brain will admit that.
Boston tried to do the same thing with Papelbon last year and nobody said squat. Because they didn't care or because a Steinbrenner didn't try it???
And doesn't anyone remember Theo running from Fenway in a g-o-r-i-l-la suit because he couldn't play his way? He left the team until they agreed to work with him. Guess Cashman isn't unique in that regard.
Bottom line is this--Hughes was a #1 draft choice and will rebound shortly. Anyone who didn't expect him & Kennedy to struggle in the massively competitive AL East is a fool. Give the kids time and the rewards will be big. Taking Joba out of the bullpen and attempting to make him a starter now is ridonkulous. He's a kid. Even seasoned pros need spring training to build their timing and arm strength. What do you do in the time it takes him to build innings? No, you wait until next year and consider starting him right from the get-go. Perhaps Mark Melancon will be ready to step up as the set up man. He's the prized rookie nobody wants you to know about---YET.
Last edited by yankeelegends on April 24th at 5:46 AM.
Look around the league, lots of teams have pitching woes. But ask yourself this, did the trade for Johan really make sense? If we gave away Phil & Ian, next year we would have been left with Wang & Johan. Then what? How do you replace 3 pitchers in a pitching thin market? CC isn't the answer folks, he's getting drubbed all over the place. Giving up 19 runs in 2 games is no better than what we already have.
Now when you throw in a young, enthusiastic, switch hitting cneter fielder with a cannon for an arm, then deal gets even sillier.
Sit back, let the kids pitch. Wait and watch. Yanks always have a competitive product on the field.
Who says Joba is going to transition well into a starter? You are assuming he is going to be a great starter because he pitches well for maybe an inning or two. Plus he has to be stretched out to be a starter meaning he goes down to AAA and then guess what, that means no Joba at all. So the yanks bullpen becomes a mess and they fall even further back of the Sox.
I'm not convinced by your argument that the Yankees' "plan" for Chamberlain is keeping them behind the Red Sox in the standings. If anything, it's because of their lineup, which until recently has been sound asleep. Given the severe lack of bullpen depth the Yankees are currently experiencing, I wouldn't move Chamberlain to the rotation quite just yet.
However, I do agree that Hank is getting lots of bad press over relatively small potatoes. He has done a commendable job so far--I was ready to throw the book at him when he shunned A-Rod back in late October, but in a genius he called A-Rod's bluff and brought him back to New York.
Chamberlain to the rotation would be a bad move. You have enough in the rotation to win. Just look at the braves and other teams who have had crappy bullpens the last couple of years. Nothing worse than a starter getting his team to the 7th inning to watch a reliever blow it in the 7th, 8th or 9th inning. The yankees have a dominant guy in Chamberlain who can get them through the 7th/8th leave it alone.
Right off the bat, I can't stand the Yanks, so I'm really pulling for Hank to go in there, play GM, continue spending a ton on "talent", and turn that place into a zoo again.
Dudski wrote:
"First off, baseball is the family business. A business the senior Steinbrenner managed fairly well for a number of years...there is a fair amount of hardware in the trophy case thanks to his spending and...because he wasn't afraid to shake things up."
Really? Other than the bought championships of the Bronx Zoo era (77/78), Steinbrenner's meddling had a negative effect on the team. It wasn't until his suspension from baseball in 1990 that Gene Mitchelle, as GM, was able to build up the farm system (as suppose to buying players) that lead to there dominance at the end of the decade. Posada, Pettitte, Rivera, Williams, and Jeter are all draftees.
What's happened lately? They've gone back to buying players and winning no championships.
Dudski...What baseball games have you been watching lately. This is not 1938 anymore and the game has changed quite a bit. If what you believe is right, wht didn't the Red Sox keep Papbelbon in the starting rotation? Why for that matter didn't the Yankees keep Riveria in the rotation, after all he too was starter in the minors. The answer is, it's now a 7 inning game for the most part for a starter, and the game is now Won or Lost in the later innings. To have a guy come out in the 8th or 9th inning o####ame who can hit 100 mph is the ideal situation for any club today. It would be a huge mistake for the Yankees to move Joba to the rotation now, and more likely ever. He is the closer of the future of the NY Yankees. They will have plenty of young arms to go in the rotation, but not many who can throw 100 mph. If Nolan Ryan was to come into the league today, he would be groomed as a closer. Baseball has changed, get with the program!
RVA
I can't agree with you on this. Why do guys who have 97-100 MPH fastballs like Papelbon, Joba, & Joel Zumaya succeed so well in the bullpen? It's because they only have to face the guy one time in a single game and the batters only face these guys at most 4-8 AB's a year. Also, NONE of these guys would be throwing 100, if they were starters. Right now, only Sabathia and Verlander are hitting 97+ consistantly in their starts. Joba has been so good in this role, that they should leave him there and be the heir apparant when Rivera decides to retire. Also, look at pitching all across baseball right now, there is not a team out there that wouldn't be crippled if either their number 1 or 2 starter went down. As far as I'm concerned there's 2 reasons why pitching is as bad as it is. One starts at the youth levels and AAU leagues. These coaches who want to win at all costs and get these kids throwing sliders and curve balls at age 8-10 is ridiculous. By the time they get to college and the pro's, their arms are just about ready to give out. The other reason is a little more complex. These kids coming up playing sports are so much better athletes than what it was when even I was in High School (mid-late 80's). If you are a top athlete who plays multiple sports, which would you choose. Basketball where you can play one year in college then go pro and make millions up front and play right away, Football where you play college for 3 years then go pro and make millions up front and play right away, or Baseball where you can go pro out of high school and spend 3-5 years t
toiling in the minors, finally make the majors but have to wait til my eligibilty runs out or hope that an arbitrator agrees with me after a couple of seasons to make my millions. I love baseball by far over the NBA or NFL, but if I was an 18 year old top athlete, they would sound a whole lot better to me than MLB!
You guys are so right on! Please don't tell Steimbummer, Cashmaniac, or G-rod. We ALMOST make the same mistake with Papelbon and luckily he volunteered to stay in the BP and what a blessing that has been.
Having a strong middle reliever who can make an occasional quality start gives depth to the starting pitching. E.g. Tavarez and Lester (before he became a starter again) last year. I'm hoping Masterson can stick until Schilling returns and help fill that role this year. We're seeing the problems that result from sick/injured starters right now. The flu is a really short term problem but it illustrates we only have Tavarez as a spot starter this year and it’s not enough. If we still had Schilling Buchholz would be filling that role.
Last edited by lonabishop on April 24th at 9:55 AM.
Is it really possible that nobody pays attention when the baseball people explain things? See, Joba will be a starter. He's not being put in the bullpen because the Yanks need an 8th inning guy. But Joba didn't pitch 170-200 innings last year (I think it was closer to 115). To increase his workload by that much would put his arm into serious jeopardy. So it's either put him in the rotation now, and don't have him for September-October, or let him get some innings in the pen before having him start later in the year. Pretty simple when you stop talking and actually listen and think.
More and more this year you are seeing many games ultimately decided by the bullpens. I agree with your points if this were 1938 when there was no such thing as a middle relief and pitchers went the full 9 innings.
If they had a reliable guy in the bullpen, I'd say take the risk. But the fact remains that no one (outside of Mo and Joba) can be trusted in that pen. We don't even have a LHP in the pen which I find mind boggling. Hell, we brought in Hawkins because of his pinpoint control last year and look what happened last night. Walks Swisher who eventually scores. Farnsworth could not be traded straight up for a cup of coffee. Traber is unproven and I still do not trust Bruney's control. That is a point I feel the media overlooks with Joba as well. Yes he has the 100 mph fastball, but he has excellent control (even though he walked in a run in his last outing)which you need when you are coming into the game in all likelihood when runners on.
This era of baseball bothers me. I've had more than enough of this "pitch count" thing. Nolan Ryan, Prez of the Rangers, is telling his managers to throw out this rule and let the starters throw 130-140 pitches. If they are pitching a good game, why not? This would eliminate the need for a setup man all the time, thus, moving Joba to a starter.
It's many people's opinions that pitch counts don't matter, but the amount of innings in a season do. So, I can understand why Joba is not a starter yet. But, if you get rid of pitch counts, you can elminate the need to have a dominant 8th inning guy.
This is a stupid view. Sorry - but it is. Steinbrenner has won because of his money - not because of his personality. Look, the Yanks of 80's sucked with all Steinbrenner's meddling. They started winning when he was suspended. From what I recall he didn't hire Torre or Cashman (maybe I am wrong). They haven't won a World Series since 1999 - when the full brunt of having Steinbrenner back would be felt.
This type of journalism - even blog journalism - is awful. The write provides very subjective opinions without and really thought behind them.
While, yes Hank has the right to tell his subordinates the way he wants things done, you do this privately. You do not cut your personell off at the knees by doing this through the media. Hank was in on setting the plan for Joba. Yes it is his perogative to change his mind about that. But have the balls to go your GM and Manager and tell them face to face not through the newspaper. Is he scared they will beat him up or something.
I don't understand why so many are getting their panties all wadded up on this JOBA thing...He was never brought up to be a closer or set up guy....they put him in the pen to give him some experience in the cooker....I say roll him out and lets see what he DOES....then we can comment from our heads and not our A.s.cess...What, some of you have been hanging out after school in the bullpen when you come up with this wisdom...If it works great, if it doesn't, he is young and has a lot of time.. this is the Big leagues and Big league calls are made...and when you are forking out $200 million bones....you make them....
Cashman has lots of practice kissing up. Why should his feathers be ruffled by sliding over from one Steinbrenner to another? Not like he doesn't have experience at this.
This type of journalism - even blog journalism - is awful. The write provides very subjective opinions without and really thought behind them.
*************
Everything about how to use a player like Joba is subjective. I don’t understand how you say these three posts have no thought behind them:
rva
Apr 24, 2008
8:39 AM Dudski...What baseball games have you been watching lately. This is not 1938 anymore and the game has changed quite a bit. If what you believe is right, wht didn't the Red Sox keep Papbelbon in the starting rotation? Why for that matter didn't the Yankees keep Riveria in the rotation, after all he too was starter in the minors. The answer is, it's now a 7 inning game for the most part for a starter, and the game is now Won or Lost in the later innings. To have a guy come out in the 8th or 9th inning o####ame who can hit 100 mph is the ideal situation for any club today. It would be a huge mistake for the Yankees to move Joba to the rotation now, and more likely ever. He is the closer of the future of the NY Yankees. They will have plenty of young arms to go in the rotation, but not many who can throw 100 mph. If Nolan Ryan was to come into the league today, he would be groomed as a closer. Baseball has changed, get with the program!
RVA
Moosyone
Apr 24, 2008
9:08 AM I can't agree with you on this. Why do guys who have 97-100 MPH fastballs like Papelbon, Joba, & Joel Zumaya succeed so well in the bullpen? It's because they only have to face the guy one time in a single game and the batters only face these guys at
(cont)
most 4-8 AB's a year. Also, NONE of these guys would be throwing 100, if they were starters. Right now, only Sabathia and Verlander are hitting 97+ consistantly in their starts. Joba has been so good in this role, that they should leave him there and be the heir apparant when Rivera decides to retire. Also, look at pitching all across baseball right now, there is not a team out there that wouldn't be crippled if either their number 1 or 2 starter went down. As far as I'm concerned there's 2 reasons why pitching is as bad as it is. One starts at the youth levels and AAU leagues. These coaches who want to win at all costs and get these kids throwing sliders and curve balls at age 8-10 is ridiculous. By the time they get to college and the pro's, their arms are just about ready to give out. The other reason is a little more complex. These kids coming up playing sports are so much better athletes than what it was when even I was in High School (mid-late 80's). If you are a top athlete who plays multiple sports, which would you choose. Basketball where you can play one year in college then go pro and make millions up front and play right away, Football where you play college for 3 years then go pro and make millions up front and play right away, or Baseball where you can go pro out of high school and spend 3-5 years toiling in the minors, finally make the majors but have to wait til my eligibilty runs out or hope that an arbitrator agrees with me after a couple of seasons to make my millions. I love baseball by far over the NBA or NFL, but if I was an 18 year old top ath
(cont)
athlete, they would sound a whole lot better to me than MLB!
Moosyone and RVA
You guys are so right on! Please don't tell Steimbummer, Cashmaniac, or G-rod. We ALMOST make the same mistake with Papelbon and luckily he volunteered to stay in the BP and what a blessing that has been.
Having a strong middle reliever who can make an occasional quality start gives depth to the starting pitching. E.g. Tavarez and Lester (before he became a starter again) last year. I'm hoping Masterson can stick until Schilling returns and help fill that role this year. We're seeing the problems that result from sick/injured starters right now. The flu is a really short term problem but it illustrates we only have Tavarez as a spot starter this year and it’s not enough. If we still had Schilling Buchholz would be filling that role.
If you're really not reading what other people say, then you should not comment on what they say!
Last edited by lonabishop on April 24th at 3:02 PM.
Forgetting the Steinbummers are poor baseball men how about this. It is a basic rule of management that to hold someone responsible you must delegate the authority to management and control their area of responsibility. When you violate the delegation rule you allow your direct reports to defer back up to you and YOU are the only one who can be held accountable. Violating the delegation rule only once in a while sets up "the boss can overrule me therefore I'm not really in control and whatever happens is his fault.” Not to mention the public embarrassment of an executive who was guaranteed autonomy. Pretty bad business management if you ask me.
Hank is getting a pass from everyone on baseball. There's no way he gets one on Business Management 101
Last edited by lonabishop on April 24th at 3:07 PM.
Too many great comments to respond at once, but all are appreciated.
A couple of points-
I'm willing to wager the number of rallies from behind in the 8th and 9th are about the same percentage today as they were in the 1950's. It never did happen that often and doesn't now, so why the fascination with building a "bridge" to the closer?
Chamberlain and injury risk. Alot of studies that do advocate pitch counts make the arguement that it isn't an injury risk, but the risk of poor performance in the start after a high pitch count game. Chamberlain might have arm problems as a starter, but then again he might injure it as a reliever.
Steinbrenner and his value as an owner-It's always been about his willingness to spend money. I think Hank Steinbrenner will continue that, but also add in his own take on the game. Is it a bad thing to add one additional opinion?
The apple does not fall free from the tree and in this case, the apple is still on the tree. Steinbrenner should stay out of the mix, he hired someone to make those decisions and he should let them do that. Although he is the "owner", that does not make him the resident genius. Putting Chamberlin the the starter's role does not solve the Yankee's pitching woes. The Yankees need pitching, simple and plain. This in addition to the fact that you are not going to win it all every year. Sometimes you have to settle for being competitive and giving the fan's their money's worth. If you are truly fixated on succeeding all the time and nothing less is satisfactory, then up the stakes. Give the fan's a rebate the following year that you fail to win a world series. I know that sounds preposterous and far-fetched, but it is similar in the train of thought that you are going to win it all, year in and year out. Stack the deck first and then re-arrange the cards. If you are short on "aces" then manage your "kings" better. Stop giving away your good cards and nuture the ones that you have. I love the Yankees, always have and always will. But I will always remember how George would destroy a team with his interference and meddling. Remember Howard Spira? Remember all of the times Billy Martin was hired and fired. How he got rid of Howser after a great year and then Howard was hired by the hated Royals and he goes straight to the World Series the next year. How he would fire managers and bring in someone else the next day and the team was still inept, i.e Berra fired after 14 games an
Great post! The we're "Kings of the Hill" mentality has cost the Yankees dearly; it's simply unrealistic. Much better to have a plan that will result in success than a knee-jerk reaction to the days problem.
He apeared on a celebrity dating site called 'RichMatchMaking.com' where lots of reputable men seek love and romance. He's a certified millionaire there and hook up with several beauties. The main pic looks very hot.
I think Phil Hughes is a bum.. The yankees should of gotten Johan Santana when they had the chance. I dont see them winning the world series with the rotation they have no. There are too many inconsistencies. Only chance to fix it is put Joba in the starting rotation. If it doesnt work out, Cashman and say good bye to his job. He's a bum too
