If you have to try and motivate a team in October, there are more problems than the manager. Maybe the baseball card collection known as the New York Yankees just isn't as good the baseball team doing business as the Cleveland Indians. A win tonight doesn't change that.
Understand this. Results in baseball don't increase in any linear way from the amount of money spent on payroll. A team spending $200 million a year isn't twice as good a team spending $100 million.
Your confusion is understandable. It is possible to buy your way into the playoffs every year by doing to the Orioles, Blue Jays, and Devil Rays what Reagan did to the Russians. Overwhelm them with resources and wait for them to crumble.
But once you get in the tournament (and let's be honest, even if it kills baseball purists this is every bit as much a tournament as the College World Series in Omaha) it's down to starting pitching. And you don't have it. The rotation is "Wang and Pettitte and then forget it."
You paid Rolling Stones money to see the Roger Clemens tenth annual farewell tour, and got festival seating for K.C. & The Sunshine Band. Clemens gets lit up in a big post season game and grabs his hamstring. How's that for a nostalgia act Astro fans?
Mike Mussina is good for once through the lineup, then hitters stop swinging at his reputation and start hitting his current stuff. You and the boys in Tampa let Ian Kennedy go off for the opening round and get married. He should have gotten Clemens' turn.
Then there are the nineteen pitchers your team used in relief. And here you have a point about Torre. He manages like a man who not only used nineteen relievers, but would try to use them all in one game if the roster was big enough to hold them all. At some point you have to look the pitcher in the eye and ask him if he can get the next man out, then believe in his heart enough to find out if he's lying. This season Torre managed scared.
The every day lineup is strong. Rodriquez is a gift basket with too many nut selections, but his bat makes it all worthwhile. Derek Jeter and Jorge Posada aren't just great players, they are all-time great Yankees. HIdeki Matsui is as reliable as Republicans calling for tax cuts. Robinson Cano and Melky Carbrera would be welcome on any team in baseball. Then there is about $40 million worth of toys nobody plays with, in case you need a pinch hitter.
But it wouldn't matter if you put the 27' Yankees on the field this season. This is 2007 and the other guys also have talent. And patience. Talent they paid $100 million less to assemble, and the patience to work out their pitching problems with the horses they rode in with.
Oh yeah, and the common sense not to accumulate a lineup so full of left handers. The NY nightly nine is maybe the strongest in baseball, but it is a lineup which can be pitched to.
So fire Torre. He isn't the reason you won when you won, and he won't be the reason you lost this year. "The problem", some guy down in A ball at Stratford on Avon once observed, "Lies not with our stars but with ourselves."
You'll have a whole winter to figure that one out.
He won't figure out that one Dudski. In George's mind, he's the one that matters. He has always been the architect who designed the successes. When the project fails to live up to expectations, the contractor is blamed for failing to carry out the plan. The plan is never questioned. It's George's.
if torre is not important to the win or loss, why the hell people say he is the greatest manager out there? He should be gone long time ago.he is the most overated manager in the history of all sport.
the yankees thru baseball history are the best in the game a good team great players but the people that make the call of the field need to let the guy in charge on the field do his best to play the best player on his line-up not some 40$ million guy that should be on firstbase couching, thats not george to call a pitcher that thinks he can still pich what a scam,, to the fans
I agree,Torre is overated.He has taken the same team all these years,I think its time to get Joe Geradi,I think He will bring some young talent up and maybe we can trade or get some different players with the go go attitude,this clubhouse needs a lift,some new blood and let them have fun.Stop being undertakers,start having FUN,The Boss pays,and He is still the Biggest Yankee Fan ALIVE
I think it #### that he's blaming Torre. Blame the players who aren't performing like Farnsworth. How does that guy still have a job? He's been terrible for the Yanks for so long. Like it or not ARod has been part of the problem in the Yanks recent playoff downfalls. He can put up all these crazy numbers during the season but come playoffs he doesn't do too well. He did good last night but one game doesn't make a full turn around. You've got to get rid of the under performing players, not the manager. If they bring in Geradi I think it's like San Diego bringing in Norv Turner. You're firing a proven winner and bringing in someone who hasn't proven he can win.
I disagree. I have been a Yankees fan for 30 years. And Joe Torre has been GREAT. However, Every coach/manager hits a point where there message isn't received. The team becomes dipondent. Now Joe was brilliant brining in the Youth, they were open and willing to receiving the message and embraced it...but there are too many thet beleive in Joe but just have become"business as usual". In a perfect word I would like to see Joe Reire after a couple more WS wins in the pinstripes....but I think his message is losing its umph!!!
Hay,Your so hot on what the Yankees should do,You guys fired how many mgrs,and never blamed your players once,oh Yah Buckner,He did get the blame,Yah right,or Little,wsa that his mistake leaving Pedro in?Come on,Showalter built this team,Joe did his job,he just went to far with the same old players,he is to much with his loyalty to the vets,Joe Geradi would be the best for the job,He knows whats got to be done,and yes A Rod is not the answer,He is a great Player,but he has problems at the Stadium,But your remark about Norv,You better look at your mgr,at least our players don't try and manage,like your bloody sock boy,and lets look at your bust from Japan,how many millions,come on?
I'm not saying Geradi is as bad as Turner. I'm just saying that he hasn't proven he can win yet like Turner. All the San Diego fans said was "He can't fail with all this talent." You can have all the talent in the world but I'd rather have a manager who has proven to win over one that hasn't.
Unfortunately I think Damon needs to go as well as ARod. Farnsworth, that's a given right there. There are more, just can't think of them at the moment.
Twelve years as manager, twelve years in the post season, four World Series Victories......how can you possibly blame Joe? Look at all the hurdles the Yanks over came this season with injuries upon injuries and they still almost won the division. We were one more series agaist the Sox away from winning the East once again. Girardi nor Pinella could have done what Joe has done
Yah,wouldnt you love to have him back,You know so much about who should go and come.What are you guys gonna do for the next year,how many free agents you gonna let go and then say ,oh he stunk.Your team is a great team at this moment,but its not gonna last,how many mgrs did you turn over in the past 10 years,oh yah your all set,your on your last train ride,2004,Get real,ether team in the NL will beat the Al this year,and bet on it .And I am a Al fan,Go Yankees.
SmittyDAS I agree with most of what you said. Pinella did a good job turning that Cubs team so they could at least make the playoffs so I think he's one guy that could do it.
You don't think Farnsworth should go? You don't think that you have someone that can replace Damon or could possibly trade for someone as good or better?
I don't know how many free agents we're going to let go. I would hate to see Lowell go and I did hate seeing Damon go when he left because he did such a good job for us.
If they decide to let players go then even if they didn't do so well then I thank them for what they did and move on. I wish them well in their future.
You think Gagne is a good as releif,come on.And why should we get rid of Damon,He can plat dh,or left or center,we have Cabrara,and we might even get Hunter,then we can let someone go and we can gat a pitcher.I have been a Yankee fan for 50 Years,Torre is not the same,he has other prioritys,we need a mgr who wants a ring.Joe has 4 rings,winningest mgr in Yankee History,but its time,we need a fire in the dugout,
What urks me about Torre, and believe me I have been a Yankee fan for decades,is how he just sits there night after night during 162 games, plus the post season with that bat like a bump on a log.
He is NOT a motivator, a cheerer, just a dead beat!
We need spirit and I believe the first to go is The Cash man
Also guys you know as well as I do, George is not the one making those statements although he would...He has about 65% Alzheimers or maybe more. He son is the one remarking.
Yes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, those players just choke in playoffs.....BUT for now. ya gotta give Pettite,Damon,Hughes and Mo the credit, well if you are a Yankee fan!!
Everyone hates A'rod and everyone wants to see him go, UNTIL there is chance he could be on their team! All jealousy.. Leave the guy alone,he is human!
i was saying how it would be very hard to coach a major sports team!!! BUT AS WE SEE SOMEONE DOSENT GET IT!!!!!!! hey jonnny??? read the points before you make a club foot statement???? ok
If the Yanks fail to come back in this series, I think the secret to them getting better is to get younger, and utilize their farm system. It may sound corny, but team chemistry is something the Yankees have lacked for years, because their team is a revolving door of talent.
The emphasis of needing to improve shouldn't be solely placed on the manager, though Torre may decide to step down. I see Joe Girardi being the replacement, or Donny Baseball, but my money is on Girardi.
PF yes i agree!!! and as i said , jim torre has been with the yankees?? how many years??? and that bone headed statement made by GS yesterday BEFORE THE GAME???? god if i was joe , win or lose id pack my bags and say seeya!!!!!
Joe could care less if he gets fired. It's not his fault they are not playing well. I'm no fan of the yanks but GEORGE, GET A GRIP. Blame the Indians for kicking yall's a_s. Go RED SOX. Only in Chicago will you find a Sox fan.
Hay,EIL.Its great to here from a long time Yankee Fan,My first game 1956,Upper decks,right field,My Pop took me,He also was a big Yankee fan,The Mick in center and Yogi was in right,Bob Cerve was in left,thats all I could remember of that game,who new,that was the year Larson had the Perfect game in a world series.Yah,I did read that comment about Damon,Yah when he played for Boston he was the best center fielder that lived,now they say he is washed up,but no comment on there center fielder,who?Coco who,another guy they will drop after this year,Hay wait till Lowel walks,they will bash the heck out of him,Hay pal,give a call,Joe.
Hay Joe...
Nice to meet you, you New Yorker!!!
I was 5 in 1956, but a Yankee Fan since 3 because stuck myself on Dads lap pestering the heck out of him which is how I learned.. Daddies little girl!!
You are right,Poor Lowell will get it soon for no reason!! The hate A'rod so much because they don't have him!!
I feel very strongly we will win tonight Joe. If the Cleveland manager was at all wise, he would have started CC and if there is a tomorrow, Carmona!!
Enjoy the game, Good Luck to us...
I think the Yankees have fallen in the same situation as the Red Sox were in for years. 25 players and 25 cabs. The Yankees are a group of me players. They won when they had the team players. Jeter, Rivera, and Posada can only do so much. The Giambis, Rodriguez and Damons are not of the same make. Given some time to develop more players like Melky and Cano, they will have a chance.
Long Island-Mantle probably ran himself ragged the day you saw Berra and Cerv. From everything I read Cerv wasn't very mobile and, of course, Berra was a catcher. I knew he played LF after Howard came up, but it had to be a stretch for him to play RF.
Mean-I suspect Steinbrenner won't mind losing this year if he gets to be rid of Torre. They are pointing to 2009 and the new stadium. When they get there Mattingly will be the manager.
torre has done a awesome job for the yankees. nobody is the blame cashman and torre are builing the youth along and they didnt trade any youth for a quick fix this year. clemens farnsworth were to make due til the youth moves in instead of trading the future away . they still had a great year and are still in the mix yet against a great indians team.i hope steinbrenner doesnt pull a red sox deal by getting rid of of players or manager because of 1 year
As a yankee fan, I'm kind of bittersweet about the whole thing. I love Torre (most people do- he's a great guy), but I am also curious to see how the Yankees would do with Don Mattingly as the manager. I love Mattingly's no-nonsense approach to the game, and like you said, he's the heir apparent.
As a Yankee fan who has lived in New England 17 years, don't worry about "The Saawx". If they win the world series, just bought it. Welcome to the world of mlb. They spend just as much on payroll: hello Daiske but you never heaaar about that. The players respect Joe, George is failing, great owner, we will be back, estimated 100 mil extra revenue. We will build our organization overseas, which we are doing, and in Latin America. Tough call about Joe. I do think that the Boss, supposedly willing to pull the trigger on anyone,
has been patient. Anyway, we have 26 titles, Yankee fans, take that to the bank, and there will be more, Henry and "The Snake" Lucchino. Remember 98, gm of the Padres, dusted 4-0. Case closed, Tom.
for all of the AROD bashing people in this forum...in 35 previous playoff games his stats were as follows:
.280 batting average with a .375 on base average and a .485 SLUGGING average
yet people havea problem with this. let's not forget if it wasn't for arod's exceptional playing throughout the end of the season the yanks wouldn't even be in these playoffs. baseball is NOT about a one man team, there are 8 other batters that should be able to carry one batter should he go into a slump. there are other batters that have not preformed this season too, not just arod. personally if torre is asked to stay, he should tell steinbrenner to stick it where the sun don't shine or give him the big fu with a smile on his face!
Torre has to thanks Showalter, Michael,Watson and the people who suspend Mr Steinbrenner in the 90's that allow them to do the winner yankees of late 90's. After this team dissapear Torre's magic was gone for good. FIRE HIM RIGHT NOW!!!!! AHORA!!!!!
yanks51, the numbers u r bringing up also include a-rods postseason numbers with the mariners. if u look at his postseason numbers with the yanks alone, they're much much worse...a-rod gets paid the most in baseball. thats more than twice as much as albert pujols, david ortiz, jim thome, all of whom have won a world series within the past 5 years. all have a stupendous postseason resume (in at least 25 postseason games, they all have 10 HRs and 330 avg)(bernie williams has 22 HR in the postseason-most all time.. if ur gonna get paid,then u gotta produce. a-rod jus cant stop once its october. thats why people get annoyed. everyone knows he has talent (i.e. 500 HR at age 31) but it has to carry into october.
the yanks have their backs to the wall,this is when they are at their best.the yanks have been my team for 45 years,they seldom have let me down.i don't expect them to this year.the yanks will win over cleveland and will smash the red sox,and go on and take the whole thing.
I appreciate your loyalty. We'll see who is right, but I don't see the Yankees pulling it out against Cleveland or beating the RedSox if they did. The starting pitching for NY is just too thin. Granted, they get as far as Chamberlain and Rivera they can be tough, but who other than Wang and Pettite do you feel comfortable with?
