The Nextel Cup has drivers and cars out the ying-yang, fans galore, 193 races per year, television outlets haggling for rights to broadcast each seven hour race, and a championship formula - The Chase - that's been modified, tweaked, and retro-fitted to produce a championship race that is as artificially close & exciting as their superspeedway races. It'll take the twelve best, and hopefully most popular drivers/car combinations, and over the final forty or so races of the season pit them in a heated, almost-from-scratch (see aforementioned tweaking & retro-fitting) race to the season championship. It was unacceptable to get to the last couple dozen races and already have the championship decided. So NASCAR stuck its fat little fingers into its racing once again, in an effort to manufacture greater suspense, and came up with the aforementioned Chase. Now NO ONE can run away with the race to the championship. Superiority throughout the regular season is barely acknowledged, and the top twelve racers are lumped together and considered nearly equal (I know, ... the bonus points ...). It didn't QUITE work perfectly last year - as Tony Stewart didn't make the Chase. So a little tweaking here, a little tweaking there, ... THERE, now we have it. Surely THIS time we'll get it right, and not exclude a fan favorite ...
... whoops ...
Meanwhile, the IndyCar series motors along uncomfortably. They typically field only 18 cars per race, and week in and week out there are three race teams competing for the win (the two Penske drivers , two Ganassi/Target drivers, and the four Andretti/Green drivers). But the finishes between them are very close week-in and week-out. Their season championship formula is the old fashioned one - win a race and you get more points (50) than the second place driver (40), who gets more points than the third place driver (35) & so on down to 10 "participation points" for all bottom finishers. They throw in 3 points for leading the most laps. The driver with the most points at the conclusion of the final race of the season IS THE CHAMPION. My DOG understands that formula.
Guess which series has boiled down to having the most exciting season ending? and guess which series has once again seen one of its most popular drivers excluded from a championship run?
There are three drivers with a chance to win the IndyCar season championship this coming weekend in Chicago: Scott Dixon, Indy 500 winner Dario Franchitti, and Tony Kanaan. Last weekend the series leader crashed near the conclusion of the race and in the process (intentionally?) took out his closest competitor for the championship, giving Tony Kanaan the win and enough points to also have a chance to win the championship this coming weekend. The points lead has ebbed and flowed throughout the season. The drama producing the ebbs and flows has been significant - points leaders getting crashed or crashing themselves out of races, different drivers/cars have seemed unbeatably superior at different times during the season - and you never know who Danica Patrick will take out in a given race, OR who Michael Andretti will be ranting about after the conclusion of another race during which his son DNF'd.
You can try all you want to engineer an exciting conclusion to a race or a championship season. You can add restrictor plates to cars, you can create body and engine formulas so tight that it takes half a day to complete inspection, you can throw yellows every time a spotter sees a dandelion spew dangerous seeds onto the track, and you can create a complex championship points systems that will befuddle a chess master - but such controls don't guarantee superior racing. To excess, they can (and DO) actually DETRACT from superior racing.
Human skill, bravado, and luck produce superior racing.
Whether by hook or by crook, IndyCar produced and FEATURED superior racing this season.
The superior racing (which was abundant once again) in NASCAR was BURIED underneath all of the pulleys, cogs, and filters by which and through which it attempts to produce tight finishes.
I enjoy the flash and spectacle that surround Cup races. But give me the good ol' fashioned racing of IndyCar, or late model stock car racing, or any of the formulas which feature RACING, and not the fabulously popular but highly processed Cheese Whiz that is Nextel Cup racing.
Dave in Indy
Whilst NASCAR on the face of it is exceedingly more popular amongst the masses. To me it's the Indy series that's more appealing in terms of the sheer driving ability of the competitors. But it's their management style that has made the situation all the more intolerable for the fans. Tony George and his hierarch are a messed up bunch of individuals. The best thing that could happen is for both series CART and IRL to merge and re-emerge as a bigger and better organization. But thier egos are far too inflated to deall with the issue the right way.
I've a new post up under this guise titled Tell Me Why It Is I'm A Chelsea Fan Once Again ?
Let me know what you think as to the merits of the piece ?
I'll look forward to reading your comments.
Also do check the following To All My Peeps In Da House !
Dave in Indy
Tell me why it is that Dale Jr is so popular ? 'cause if it's not for his driving then what is it ?
He's failed to make it to the season ending 'Race For The Chase' and we're meant to be upset by this ? Well if he were driving a helluva' lot better instead of making excuses then I could relate to his plight. The same for that #### Kevin Harvick.
We'll see if IndyCar lives through it's management nightmare. I don't know if the ChampCar fiasco last weekend will result in them folding the tents or not (surely the departure of Bourdais doesn't help either). If it does, and resources are pooled again in IndyCar, we might see them beginning to catch on with a broader fan base.
I actually like Dale Jr. - he's a pretty compelling figure, trying to honor his father's legacy without being overwhelmed by it. Maybe a guy worried about appearing to be too balanced/too nice to yet be a winning racer.
The reason why Jr. isn't in The Chase has nothing to do with his driving ability. He's gotten killed with engine and tire problems entirely out of his control during the stretch run.
Sure, his fans are going to be upset. That's why they run the races.
Dave, what you don't get about why NASCAR has The Chase and why it is thriving while open wheel is dying in the US is story telling.
The "old fashioned" scoring and no playoff approach reduces the opportunities for compelling drama.
The Chase uses the story telling device of raising the stakes. The Chase creates a season where you have a three act structure. The Chase works for creating the greatest number of opportunities for drama.
Current tweaks have kicked points racing to the curb.
Even SPEED's open wheel-NASCAR hater Robin Miller acknowledged that without the controversy at the end OF LAST WEEKS TIMED RACE IRL put on an exceptionally boring show.
IRL needs the small number of competitive drivers they have to pull some WWE style showmanship (or show up on "Dancing With The Has Been Stars" in order to get any attention -- it simply isn't good story telling or exciting racing.
The argument that open wheel drivers are more skilled is flawed logic and typical conventional wisdom.
People act in their own interest. If given a choice between driving for more money in front of larger crowds, with better sponsors, who wouldn't?
Last edited by ccr1d3r on September 4th at 10:35 AM.
The best open wheel drivers in America are voting with their feet. One of Tony George's points in the big Indy split was a commitment to Indy's oval heritage -- that's been lost and so has the fan base.
And oh, by the way....
CHAMP Car even had to cancel their season finale.
Open wheel needs to take a step back and do some serious retrofitting and tweaking of their own.
Last edited by ccr1d3r on September 4th at 10:37 AM.
My post wasn't about which series pays more money (in most cases, NASCAR) or puts a driver in front of more fans (clearly, NASCAR). It was about drama and its origins.
IndyCars comes PURELY from the racing. Very little has been contrived to create a very compelling climax to a great season of high quality racing.
NASCAR buries much of it's truly high quality racing underneath a layer of contrived #### (restrictor plates, predictably routine yellows, mid-season formula adjustments, etc.) that actually detracts from the appreciation of truly quality racing. At this point, the IndyCar finale is far more compelling than NASCAR's highly contrived affair.
And I also mentioned the ChampCar deal. I see that as only a positive ... although I agree that IndyCar is the chaser now and has to figure out what to do different to reattract a desirable fan base (not necessarily Cheese Whiz lovers).
As far as the drama in IRL coming from the racing, I'm sorry, I just don't see it. The drama in IRL is coming from things off the track (when will Danica win, does she have power steering, who is about to #### slap who and so on).
The story paradigm just isn't there in IRL. It is and it is working in NASCAR.
By "isn't there in IRL", do you mean having three drivers racing for the championship in the final race of the (not unbearably long) season? Or dramatic racing incidents over the last five races significantly affecting the championship runs? Or just the off-track shenanigans?
The off-track shenanigans are interesting. But the wide open race for the championship in the final race of the year is what I mean when I say the IRL has real drama, while NASCAR has manufactured drama.
If NASCAR is going to insist on this Chase nonsense, why not just crown a regular season champ and call the Chase the playoffs - even structure it like a tournament as suggested by one or two of the contest participants? That seems WAY more real and WAY more interesting than forcing everyone into a little group just before the end of the season, and then letting them go. Of course, that would be ENTIRELY fitting within the restrictor plate paradigm of "great racing".
ccr1d3r
If it's not then his driving talent and his team aren't doing their jobs. Then who's really to blame ? If he's that good a driver shouldn't he ought to know and have a feel as to what's going on with his vehicle ?
Isn't that what seperates the 'men from the boys' in this type of racing ?
You either make your own luck or that proverbial m*nkey will always be hanging around your neck.
In Dale Jr's case it's an 800lb g*rilla !
What's killing Open Wheel is the ego of Tony George ! He's the guy who couldn't sell ice to the eskimo's let alone make his sport a success. It's a one trick pony , dog and pony show all rolled into one. As Patrick she's about as relevant to the sport as Wie is to the LPGA.
Hell I'd rather see the both of 'em naked rather than participating in their respective sports. Has Wie done a centerfold as of yet ? Oh never mind she's not legal as of yet is she ?
rampant'
Last edited by rampantfanatic on September 4th at 12:22 PM.
ramp - Bad luck is to blame for Jr not making it. take away 2 motors going bad and a tire deal and he is in and Kevin Harvick is out. None of them deserve to be going for the championship if you ask me. Only the top 5 should be in.
Last edited by Forensic2 on September 4th at 12:39 PM.
as far as IRL and Indycar.. they are so freakin boring!!! no wonder you dont like a longer season. If I watched anything besides NASCAR, I too would want it to end as soon as possible.
What exactly do you find boring about IndyCar? (not that 100 billion NASCAR fans isn't already mighty persuasive - cuz it is, makes me want to stop being a crybaby 'n crawl back in my open wheel only hole in the ground)
One Hundred Billion? That number might be a shade low.... I have the exact number at Eleventy GaZillion... give or take....
Dave, could it be that it comes down to a matter of taste? There are people out there that would chose Spam over Filet Mignon. (Not many, but some...)
So, it stands to reason that there are a hal####ozen or so folks that prefer open wheel go carts, to Stock cars.
Well Dave, the 100 Billion isn't much more of an exaggeration than your numbers.
What professional sport crowns a regular season and playoff champion? You go for broke in the regular season to get an advantage for the post season. NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL. College FB is a bizarre exception and everybody hates that system.
Sports is life. The story telling paradigm is something you are missing in open wheel. There are too few drivers who have a legit shot -- there isn't parity. The structure just isn't there for a great story.
Ramp, if you are passing cars and the car is running fast while you are heading to the front and suddenly flames come shooting out from under the hood, it isn't on the driver. That's been Jr.'s story during the run up to The Chase.
You can't put the open wheel debacle all at the feet of TG. There were plenty who participated in killing that golden goose. If IRL had stayed true to their oval history, they very well may have a much different story.
good post dave. i don't like pink floydd for the same reason. the music is just so over produced it sounds like cheese whiz. my only knock on the irl is the wide open nature the cars run at on ovals. it makes the racing all momentum. when i watch racing i like corner speeds to be dramatically slower, and the drivers required "work" the corners with their machines. nascar has been able to do this with their lead sleds. it is interesting that all the gains in nascar in the last 15 years have been in the cornering speeds. imo i think this is the number one reason for the cot. to reduce corner speeds thus putting the race in the drivers hands a little more.
Agree on the Pink Floyd comment (except "On The Turning Away" ... don't know why ...). Good analogy too.
And agree with CCR that others carried significant blame for the split debacle (largely, the nearly equally greedy owners). But what story is there to tell in NASCAR? Jeff Gordon was running away with the championship, so we made it harder for him to do so? I don't believe there is a story telling paradigm that is freed-up by the Chase, short of the drama that's already developed by each driver and their fans (and would be there without the Chase, albeit differently - no less compellingly IMO).
Over-production hall of fame (in addition to Pink Floyd):
Boston
Chicago (albums after Chicago III)
The Moody Blues
Abba (but that's hardly the main issue)
Queen (ditto - although they could play great raw rock 'n roll in concert)
Styx
Good arguments on both sides of the fence. I like both INDY and NASCAR. I fell out with Indy a few years back when Indy teams split and Champ cars was born. Felt they should have worked out an agreement to remain a singular.
For some reason I didn't think the reason for the split was in the best interest of open wheel racing in general. Actually it splintered the sreies into two seperate entities that caused both to bleed profusely and also splintered the fan base..
NASCAR on the other hand has remained some what stable and grew exponentialy over the years with their slick marketing, constantly changing championship rules, and fixed racing. Although it has alienated some of the fan base, NASCAR still brings in the mega crowds for each event.
Give me back the old INDY series and I might well spend more time at the INDY races.
I take it, hyrtwe1543, that you have not seen the entire NASCAR season then. If you had, you'd know there have been some races where watching paint dry would have been far more exciting.
I've said it before and I'll say it again; both are completely different tastes and should not be compared to each other....although listening to all the whining when they are is rather amusing I must say, so good job Dave (and ccr since that challenge thing between you two was your idea, lol) :P
ccr1d3r
It was greed on George's path that almost led to the demise of his sport. And it could very well be that way. Especially if he's not willing to deal with the hierarchy of CART realistically.
As for NASCAR and the drivers are you trying to tell me that they're no t aware as to when they've got a problem with their vehicles whilst racing. For all of the technological advances you're making it sound as if they're driving a vehicle that was once used by Fred Flinstone.
If the drivers and their crew like I've said are not in sync then they're bound to have problems.
Cornering speeds are everything right now. The COT crushes that. You have tracks in NASCAR that people used to have to use the brakes in order to turn ten years ago. Today everyone is running wide open all the way around (without the COT).
Three of the best COT drivers (Gordon, Hamlin, Stewart) also do very well in the spoiler car at road courses and big flat tracks like Pocono and Indy where the best drivers use the brakes later and harder than the other guy.
While I would like to see a bit more down force on the front of the COT (in order to prevent crashes) the big change needed is cooling to the brakes.
Tez, you are 100% correct that there have been some real snoozer races at SOME OF the cookie cutter tracks (and Sonoma) this season. MIS gets a bad rap, but Chicago is the one that I can't stand.
Rampant, I'm wasting time, but....
Out of the 200 some odd people supporting a single car, if one of the PHDs in the engineering department screws up and makes something happen to blow up an engine mid race, the driver is powerless to know or act.
Mid race, even if a driver does know, acting costs a lap every 15-55 seconds under green.
Go back and watch Watkins Glenn or Michigan and tell me what the #8 should have done different and exactly where he would be in The Chase if he finishes. BTW, Jr. isn't one of my three most favorite drivers.
Last edited by ccr1d3r on September 5th at 7:29 AM.
Eh, we've thrashed the IndyCar vs. Cheese Whiz debate for a couple of months now. I'll say that you guys have a great point regarding cornering (in any racing series).
Flat-out and two and three wide throughout an entire race is NOT good auto racing. Both IndyCar and NASCAR have shown they want to feature driving a bit (to a lot) more than has been over the past on some tracks. The COT has been NASCAR's step in the right direction in this regard; and, reducing wing size, playing around with various aero configurations, and playing around with horsepower has been IndyCar's method.
I'm looking forward to enjoying Sunday's race in Chicago, and then a full season of college and pro football and then another full season of college basketball. I'll check in every once in awhile to see how a Cup race is going, but will be content to have about six months to focus on other sports and to recharge my auto race spectating batteries.
it wasn't gordon they changed the format for .. it was changed to keep the roushe cars who finished high every week without winning much from winning championships kensith only won 1 race when he was champ
Dave - Tell us how you really feel! I prefer stock car racing, but I will admit that I have been more interested in IRL this season then I have in years and I will definitely be watching the finale in Chicago.
I am not a big fan of the Chase, because I want a system that rewards the best driver/team - not the best driver for the last ten races. For those of us who don't like the Chase there is a perfect storm brewing.
Gordon is having one of the greatest seasons in NASCAR history, is chasing history (Earnhardt & Petty's 7 chamionships), is one of the most popular drivers, and his fans like to point out that he already lost one championship (2004) to the Chase format. If he runs well, but falls short of the Championship (or worse gets wrecked out) NASCAR will face alot of scrutiny.
