It's being reported this morning (by WGCL TV out of Atlanta, GA) "federal prosecutors are offering Falcons quarterback Michael Vick a plea deal on dogfighting charges that would require Vick to serve at least one year in prison. Sources have told CBS 46 that Vick has until 9 a.m. Friday to accept a deal or face new charges in a superseding indictment".
What is our fascination with sending people to prison? In what way has that been shown to be the best method of preventing a person from repeating their crime, or to discourage others to not engage in such behavior?
Per capita crime in the U.S. has increased only marginally over the past several decades. Yet our incarceration rates have skyrocketed over the same period, putting us in the ugly position of leading the world in per capita incarcerations. We have five to ten times as many inmates per citizen as most other developed countries around the world.
WTF?
The greatest nation on the face of the earth? We incarcerate more than 5.6 million of our citizens (# of citizens who have been incarcerated at some point during a given year)? That's an incarceration rate of one in thirty-seven (about 3% of our adult population). And this rate has been streaking upwards for several decades. Our prisons are estimated to be constructed to handle just over one-half of that number. The over-crowding conditions are making prisons no better than the gulags of the old Soviet Union, where basic human standards of care are not being met - let alone efforts to genuinely rehabilitate offenders.
THIS IS A NATIONAL DISGRACE, one that we the people perpetuate.
Prosecutors get elected to lucrative local offices based largely upon their ability to market their "toughness on crime" - which almost always means their conviction rate and their ability to boast of long sentences for cases they've prosecuted. Judges, in many locales, are elected in much the same way. That's what the electorate want to hear, that criminals are being put into jail, and often.
And now folks are likely feeling good that Michael Vick faces more than a trivial stint in jail.
What is this INCREDIBLE investment in one method of punishment/rehab buying us? Little if anything that I can see. From 1987 to 1995, state government expenditures on prisons increased by 30% while spending on higher education decreased by 18%. Worse, it may well be hardening criminals - moving them to a point where a life of crime is all that seems feasible for them. Even WORSE, it may be moving us further from a nation deserving of respect, and to a nation characterized by shallowness, impulsiveness, a convenient blindness to the suffering of others.
Just one more thing deserving of your increased attention and action (at the very least, pay attention to who you elect to the offices of Prosecutor and Judge - typically Superior Court Judge, although ANY elected judge - and see what your mayoral and gubernatorial candidates track records are on this issue too).
How will sending Vick to prison help society? How will it impact Vick? How does sentencing marijuana smokers, or vandals, etc. to stout prison terms help society or impact the violators? Is yours a gut reaction to those questions, or a decently well thought out response, based on a review of available literature?
Everything you said is correct but I think you're barking up the wrong tree to justify those stats to excuse Vick being held accountable. this country has more than a million pot arrest people in prison and 3 million non violent drug users it was reported some 2-3 year ago. Now it may be more or less today but it's still an unacceptable level of poor people going to prison for non violent crimes. Dog fighting is not a non violent crime.
By the way, being a libertarian myself I find it abhorrent that those 3 million people in prison for drug related non violent crime? We keep them at an average cost to the taxpayers of the states and federal govt of 38,000.00 a year EACH.
Last edited by OneLastOutlaw on August 16th at 9:36 AM.
Personally, I'm not among those that are screaming "Fry Vick" but I do think if he's found guilty, or cops a plea, then the punishment should fit the crime. Now who's to say what that penalty is.
There's no doubt the amount spent on prison-building instead of education is an upsetting trend.
But just to play devil's advocate with you... if Vick IS found guilty, or pleas, what should his punishment be if not jail time?
Outlaw - Certainly prison is an appropriate outcome for some crimes. Maybe prison is appropriate for Vick. I just HATE the knee-jerk reaction we have to crime here: "send 'em to jail" - without truly delving into what such behavior produces in terms of an impact on crime, the criminal, the victim, and society in general.
Rev - Not sure - could be a short prison sentence and a large financial fine - felony conviction is possible and that alone (convicted felon status) would be a heavy burden. Maybe a suspended sentence. This is a first time offense of this magnitude for Vick (at least I think it is). That's my gut reaction - sentences should be well thought out and tailored to each crime, within general guidelines.
Last edited by Dave_in_Indy on August 16th at 9:51 AM.
I agree that building more prisons and spending so much more on prisons than schools is a dead end society. We imprison more people than any country in the world except China and "we're the good guys?" But we all know the first story of the california "3 strikes law" but there are many more. 2 time homeless offender yanked a slice of pizza out of someone's hand on the street costing 1.25 and went to prison for 25 to life. A guy named Stoney brooke (underground legal name of a radical newspaper in "Dallas" radical being defined as a guy who was openly in favor of smoking pot and sold "swinger ads" in his newspaper, got caught with 3 joints in the late 70's got 30 years. It goes on and on. People everyday are released from prison (including death row often) when it's proven they had nothing to do with the crime they were sent to prison for. Several in the past month were sent to prison on the testimony of the person they had "just found out" was the actual perp. So we're on the same page here Dave but I do think Vick ahs gone about this the wrong way and he's needs a year because of one thing. Sending the kid on the corner to prison for a pound of pot being a runner doesn't deter the next kid. Sending people with high profiles and lots of money says we just might have a reasonable move towards the rich getting at least some time and maybe the rich would slow down in their abuse of society just because they are rich. and i particulary want the black kids on the borderline between being future hall of famers possibly but more likely to be a "name" who goes to strip clubs and s
Last edited by OneLastOutlaw on August 16th at 10:04 AM.
The real punishment is going to be held for Vick after he gets through with all of this. While it does look that he is going to go to jail now(which I have no objections to). When he gets out of his probably incarserations, he is going to face the real possibility that he is going to be a man without a job. Its hard to believe that any NFL owner will roll the dice on Vick when various sponsors redraw their support just because Vick is on the roster. He might end up in Canada or the Arena League, but its hard to believe that anybody is going to want him on their team.
and instead of showing inner city kids you can be famous and rich if you apply yourself, but stay out of trouble. No wanna be "thug" athlete in america today in high school or jr high want's vick to go to prison and don't think he will. Somewhre along the line the Pacmans in jr high has to be mentally imprinted, "you only go pro if you got your act together and your momma can love you to death but her and the team owner and all the money you signed for won't save you"
if he goes for the plea deal (which he should do) he will get 1 year in prison, 5 to 6 months for good behavior (which is more likely). He will probable get fined heavily as well.
At this point I think prison is unvoidable and he should think well 5 months is better than 5 years.
Just a guess, Im no lawyer.
That's not really true with regard to the amount of time he'll serve vs. what he's been sentenced. Federal courts' sentences get served at an average of around 85%. If he gets one year, he's like going to serve close to that.
Personally, I see a lot of truth in Dave's comments. However, it is important to find a balance so that the punishment reinforces the message that what was done is wrong. Does a one-time drunk driver who injures someone in an accident deserve to lose his freedom for a period of time? What purpose would that serve for the convicted, if that person feels actual guilt over their actions and the result? Will six months in jail make that person feel "guiltier"? I tend to doubt it, and in that case it is largely (only?) about making that person suffer.
However, in THIS case, Michael Vick (allegedly) repeatedly and willfully harmed these animals. I think sentencing him to prison is entirely appropriate, not so much because the crime was so horrific, but in this case to send the message to Vick that his poor judgment can lead to serious consequences. What if a person had been maimed or killed by one of those dogs? Vick's situation could be MUCH worse.
Not quite everyone incarcerated is a citizen. There are non-citizens that are also in prison. The BOP.gov website says that of all the "residents" in their care it has 17.6% non citizens. Also, to put a spin on your statement since we are the most civilized nation, we have more stringent laws. In Saudi, it isn't a crime to beat your wife, she belongs to you and is your property. After 2 tours over there, I have seen it. Over here, if you beat someone, it is a crime. So that isn't mentioned in your column. You can spin statistics just like I can to justify my point. When you add that 17.6% non citizens into your equation that is almost 3 million people that aren't citizens in there. We also keep documented records for entry into the penal system. Try to get a number for the people that were in Iraq's prison prior to Saddam being ousted. So based on that your ratio to people incarcerated isn't "true" and it doesn't make sense. In addition to that, there are people in prison awaiting deportation and those are added. However, countries like Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam will not accept convicted felons back into their country even if they were citizens of that country.
I agree. We are a nation of spin truths. we believe what we believe and in all my time since 93 on the net I have never seen another person say to another person "you're right. You've changed my mind on this hot blood issue. Never once. Sometimes compromise which is a good thing, but seldom.
We know Vick is guilty. Just no way around it because of the financing issue. Is the Legally court wise guilty? I don't know. We all expect money to walk. Or at the worst a hand slap. But however it shakes down, however many millions yet another brain dead pro athelete, sociopathic tendency of "thug culture influence" to not care about anyone of anything else except for your personal male friends will get less than your or I because Vick has already spent more to this point that we could afford for the next 10 years. I would like sternly lecture "this has to stop". It won't. But whens society gets one of these seriously bad pro athlete role models screwing up about killing dogs, from my personal viewpoint, as long AS don't they manufacture evidence? NAIL HIM.
There will not be 5-6 months for good behavior. This is the federal system, circa SRA of 1984. Vick will do the absolute minimum 87.5% of his time that all Federal Felons do.
Personally I think that the sufficient punishment is that he is banned from the NFL, which they have a rule that a player is banned for life if they gamble. Now if they found that the dogs were inhumanely harm then he should go to jail or prison for such acts.
Comparing our nations imprisonment #'s is a joke. We have to put people in jail because it is our society's only way to discipline criminals. We cant publicly beat them or cut off appendages. People in other countries are scared to break the law unlike here in the good old USA where we take care of our prisoners and people actually have rights, even the bad guy. I know its not plush accomodations but it beats getting pulled out of your house in the middle of the night and shot infront of your family. Do not try to justify not disciplining a member of society based on $ and prison population. The US Government has $$$, fighting to get them to spend it on what you want is another story.
Its not if you are going to prison that matters. Its how long and most importantly "where" you have to stay. You can bet MV wont be staying in Alcatraz if and when he goes to jail.
Its not a fascination, its the only thing we are allowed to do to deter criminal behavior. You break the law, you get punished. If you have a better way of dealing with society's misfits I would love to hear it but until then they have to go to jail.
Beatings? amputations? - do Japan, or England, or France, or Germany, or Ecuador for that matter, do these things? Hell, I don't even think the Aussies do these things.
Why you believe Sharia Law is the only other alternative to imprisonment to reduce crime in our society?
Last edited by Dave_in_Indy on August 17th at 8:15 AM.
it's unreal to have these debates .. when the #### hit the fan this billy martin should of taken my advice ( he recieved my letter go to my blog )at this point all da other guys have already dumped on him (Vick). and with gambling issues and the RICO laws on the horizen his bargaining position has been compromized. and still this martin stalls the feds ... who will react by pressing new charges ... at that point Vick is goin down #### creek with-out a paddle ...it's to bad ...if he would of listened to me he'd of been playin football in the NFL not Folsom prison ... i feel his pain... i know he done wrong but this billy martin seems to be incompetant in this particular case ... negotiation # 101... you negotiate from strength not weakness ....
Dave - A great post. You really hit the key to the issue - how effective is our current criminal justice system at stopping crime. Alot of peole think "he got sent to jail" is the end of the story, but what are we accomplishing by sending people to jail? If it is to change behavior or deter future crime it is not very effective.
It's obviously a huge problem for our society and we need alot more emphasis on prevention from an early age. I know there are alot of criminals who need to go to jail, but that isn't always a great "victory" for the system.
Dave In Indy
Whatever the outcome in all of this. The large majority of the public will not be satisfied with what's done to Vick. What's even more unnerving are the latest reports coming out that he'll not allocute to the original charges brought against him. He's now trying dictate the terms of the plea agreement. That's most certainly not in his best interests. As he's open to the presiding judge's own interpretation as to what he believes is fair in terms of his sentencing.
Apart from treading on thin ice he's still facing the wrath of the NFL and the ownership the Falcons. Intelligence was never a big seller or a bright point for Vick was it ?
I've a new post up that I think you'll be interested in. It's written under this guise and titled Not Necessarily Two Different Cultures But We Do Have Something In Common Don't We ? Let me know what you think as to the merits of the piece ?
tophatal aka rampantfanatic
Last edited by tophatal on August 24th at 11:56 AM.
Dave In Indy
Also written under the rampantfanatic guise there's To All My Peeps In Da House. It alludes to what I feel are the real problems that've arisen as of late with regard to this fiasco.
Again let me know what you think as to the merits of the piece ?
