We’re talking about the GOLD GLOVE AWARD. What third-baseman should be held up as the example of fielding excellence. Brooks Robinson. Clete Boyer.
Did Gold Glove voters consider Ozzie Smith’s hitting or base stealing abilities? To not consider Mr. Felix for a Gold Glove because of his lack of hitting, or because nobody knows him, speaks of big-city / regional media bias. Perhaps the Gold Gloves should be divided between the Yankees, Mets, Dodgers, and Red Sox!
Games played should be a factor, though it’s not as big a deal as when determining the MVP. Perhaps it’s like having enough at-bats to qualify for the batting title. Fielding percentage, range factor, great plays – yes, they all should be considered. Errors are a valid statistic, certainly not antiquated.
The MLB rulebook concerning Official Scorekeeping addresses errors in section 10.12. When it comes down to it, it says: “…in the scorer's judgment, the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, the official scorer shall charge such fielder with an error.”
While there may be minor differences in judgments of official scorers in different cities, those differences are minute. Review each error? I trust the scorers…they’ve attended tons of games just to qualify, many more than you or me. You could review the errors to see how greatly they contributed to the outcome of that game. The Mets had a losing record in games Wright committed an error.Great plays could be reviewed and tabulated as well.
Players make spectacular plays, but Zimmerman and Wright botched ordinary plays twice as often as Felix, Ramirez, and Jones. For that reason alone the GOLD GLOVE shouldn’t be given to Zim or Wright.
We’re pulling each other’s chains here. A bunch of words and pretty pictures aren’t convincing arguments, guys. I’ve only been watching / studying / loving baseball over all other sports for 45 years, but I don’t know everything. My oft-mentioned CPA friend is more of a student of the game than me. He agrees that Wright shouldn’t have won. Perhaps I can get him to render his opinion. The last post gave the opinion of a veteran MLB beat-writer (who’s always respected Wright’s hitting), who was similarly perplexed.
Upon further review, perhaps travesty is a strong word. Between Zim, Wright, Felix, Ramirez, and Jones, there are numerous arguments and perhaps no clear favorite. But using any quantifiable measure of fielding, what places Wright first?
I say nothing does; however, I take him in a sample size of two that involves Wright and Chipper Jones.
Errors should not be the sole (if any) basis for a gold glove. As I noted in the prior discussion, and as you cite in the rule, much is left to judgement. Errors should be used in the context of chances; however, if one believes that the erro is a flawed stat, any statistic that is a derivative of the error would also be flawed.
One metric we have ignored is fielding runs above replacement. What do we make of the balls hit with runners on that are snagged in the hole (or in the gap for outfielders), and prevent runs from scoring? No hit or error is in play here (in the sense that the hit or error could be attributed to a fielder).
Wright FRAR = 20 FRAA = 5
Jones FRAR = 12 FRAA = 1
Zimmerman FRAR = 36! FRAA = 21!
No disrespect Murph, but I'm starting to get the impression you're a crazed Braves fan who won't be satisfied hearing anything but, "Chipper deserved to win the Gold Glove."
It was a ####-shoot with no one player clearly above the rest. Wright isn't Scott Rolen or Mike Lowell, but when guys of that elite fielding caliber don't play a full season, the next in line get first dibs at the award.
Had Chipper played 30 more games and had 150 more fielding chances, then I'd say you'd have more of an argument. But he didn't.
And truth be told, whether you want to believe this or not, Chipper Jones is an average fielding 3B at best. His athleticism is shot, his range is awful, and he often gets bailed out at first where his throws in the dirt get scooped. Does he have great instincts? Yes. Does he make great plays? Yes. But on a level of consistency, he's average.
Nobody is saying Wright is great and Chipper is bad. But when you're an MVP candidate with ridiculous numbers, and you play solid defense over the course of a full season, you're going to get a little edge.
Chipper has never won a Gold Glove, and he never will. Accept that already. And unless Rolen plays a full season, or Wright gets hurt, Wright is going to be in the mix for the award for years to come.
Chipper is a shadow of himself in the field. He use to be very good in my opinion. But, the gold glove has lost its significance. Too many scorekeepers not giving errors on obvious plays or players #### to the MLB office to get it changed. In 2006 A-Rod had what I counted 6 errors against the Blue Jays in a 3-game series. He was only credited with 1. Bet the pitchers were thrilled about that!
And it has become an award that brings recognition to a fielder based on their hitting. Brutal. Derek Jeter is an above average shortstop but nowhere near the best fielder in the AL. Yet he has a gold glove.
I remember back in the day when an error was an error, and now there are all these excuses ("the ball was hit too hard," etc.). Errors were given when players botched a play they should have at least made a good attempt at. Now, it's like every play is a tough one except for the routine, and one must botch a routine play in order to get an error.
Only thing I disagree with you, Dan, is on Jeter's fielding. The guy has never been an "above-average" fielder although he has made some spectacular plays (then again, who hasn't?). And now, forget it. The guy easily has the worst range in the majors. He needs to be moved to one of the corner outfield spots eventually. I don't see this guy playing short in two years.
Chipper... I never heard anyone ever give him credit for his defense, but I have heard plenty of people criticize his D. I always thought he was solid. One of the greatest hitters ever.
Last edited by TrainOntheBall on November 13th at 5:05 PM.
Fun stuff! Do I want to known as a crazed Braves fan? Dunno...I'm much happier about Francoeur and his 19 assists winning his first GG.
Too bad fielding is becoming a lost art.
Official scorekeeping too, it seems.
You wonder how Chipper will finish his career. As a Brave? He seems to keep an eye on his accomplishments as a switch-hitting third-baseman. Some say he'll resist a move to first...would he extend his career as a DH? The money these days seems hard to turn down.
You guys are amazing, all the sports y'all keep up with.
Good to hear from the Dan.
I've gotta go put the kids to bed!
Last edited by DMurphy on November 13th at 7:27 PM.
I don't know if we're arguing an aside, or if you are using scorekeeping as a defense. But if scorekeepers are lenient (as I assert the error is flawed as a telling stat), then wouldn't the person with the fewest be the benificary of lenient scoring? Thus, the person you assert to be the gold glove winner has lost his lustre.
Official scorekeeping would be a dream job for me. I score most games I attend, mostly for my own enjoyment. That's why I brought it up. Earlier this year I even looked up the rules for scoring errors just to make sure I had it right.
Was a good choice, as far as I can see.
attend many games and watch most on t.v. sometimes the stats do not tell the whole story.He gets to balls that most other can not touch I.E. topped balls in front of the catcher or come accross with a bare hand pick-up on a nubber, he is the master on that play no one is in his league.
David will make an error on a easy one 1st. b/f ever on a difficult one.
Watch him play and you will know why he has the G.G. and will for many year's to come.
Ever since Palmero won the gold glove after playing something like 30 games at first and DH the rest of the year, I have had a hard time even caring about the gold glove winners. It's a popularity contest and not much more.
Last edited by Bolt Backer 21 on November 19th at 3:03 PM.
Pre-game Mike HartCentral Florida has the NCAA's rushing leader, Kevin Smith. Smith has rushed for 2,448 yards this season, and he needs 181 yards to be officially recognized as the NCAA's single season record holder. Barry Sanders currently owns the record, with 2,628 yards in 1988 when he was at Oklahoma State. That was back when the NCAA did not count bowl games as part of the total stats for a season. So Sanders accumulated that yardage in just 11 games. If you added Sanders' yardage from the Holiday Bowl that year (222), he would have 2,850 yards in 12 games. Would it be right to call Smith the record-holder since he will have played in 14 games? I don't think so.
No relation to Dale! Lifetime Georgia boy...enjoys visiting the rest of the USA. The CPA is my buddy with a finger on the pulse of MLB. I'm a GT grad who also appreciates UGA. Love the Braves & MLB, tolerate the Falcons, Hawks, & Thrashers. A worker bee enjoying Little League & ballet - my excuse for not having hours to write & research. More ramblings can be found at www.sacrifice fly.blogspot. com
