Henry14 - 1.What do you think of Parlemo, l saw them play during the past two weeks and l was impressed with their attacking flair and talent within their ranks, do you feel with high profile victories over Milan and Fiorentina they can push inter all the way?
2. As a Gunner l have to say this in the line of the poor draws at home and the boos directed to Henry do you feel one of Wenger's worst decisions in charge was to make Henry captain when you compare his level of commitment to a Terry or Gerrard do you feel he has enough to lead the young Gunners squad?
Bobby – Palermo has made a great start to the season but it is far too early to think about winning Serie A. Coach Francesco Guidolin made a surprising return in the summer and Palermo has made some good signings over the last year or so – even though they lost Luca Toni relatively cheaply. Mark Bresciano and Simplicio, David Di Michele, Giovanni Tedescoand Andrea Caracciolo are all good players. However, Corini is the player that has impressed me the most since Palermo was promoted. He’s 36 but is still a very important player. At the end of the season I can definitely see a top five spot, maybe top 3, but not a Scudetto.
If you were a player who would you want on your team Terry, Gerrard or Thierry Henry? From what I have seen this season commitment or any lack of it is hardly the problem at Arsenal. Are you suggesting that if they just try harder that they will score more goals from the chances that they create? Did they try harder against Reading – 4 goals – than they did against CSKA Moscow – shut out?
Bigdavedisaster - Other than from free kicks (which Naka does a fine job at already) and publicity what does Celtic gain from Beckham? I just don’t see how he fits into the side as it is today, so unless players are lost in transfers at the end of the year I see it as a bad move.
Bobby – Bigdave, I’m with you on this one. Strachan had to reduce the age of his squad and the cost and remain successful. So far it looks as if he is on the road to achieving all three. How signing Beckham would help achieve these three objectives beats me.
Neophyte -1.Your top U-21 footballers - If you had to field a squad, who do you take and where do you put them? 2. Provided the squads maintain current form, is there a more important match than Man. Utd vs. Chelsea?
Bobby – In the World, in Europe, in England, in the USA, in Winnipeg? Picking an U-21 world team is not something I would attempt without a fair bit of research. Just checking on dates of birth takes a ridiculous amount of effort.
As for Manchester United vs. Chelsea – it is likely to be a more important game for United than Chelsea. Despite the win at Old Trafford last season Chelsea still have the upper hand since Mourinho arrived – same goes for Chelsea's record against Liverpool and Arsenal. On the grander scale the game will be hyped beyond believe but rarely does the outcome of a league race come down to a single game.
Gregz - What is this I hear of Basile thinking about recalling Veron to the Argentine national team. This would seem to be a desperate move on the part of Basile. Veron is 31 for crying out loud. Surely it must be obvious that recalling him is a short term measure. By the time the 2010 WC comes around he would be looking to retire wouldn't he? What do you guys think?
Bobby – If it is true it doesn’t seem to be a move for the future. However, all managers know that if they can get off to a winning start then it lifts the pressure they are under from fans and media and buys sometime to make the changes they think they need to make. That might be Basile’s thinking. Veron was never the same player after he moved from Italy. I thought the season at Parma in particular he was fterrific.
Henry14 - Is it me but the closest team Chelsea seem to resemble is Bolton, they are showing no skill but brushing and bumping into opposition, l thought that as they was so much talent on the horizon l would see a much open match but it was boring to be honest.
Bobby – I was disappointed in the Chelsea – Barcelona game as a footballing spectacle. It was a poor display by both teams. If they both keep this up we might see the equivalent of Portugal vs. Netherlands sometime soon.
Gunnersfan1 - I just don't get Arsenal, they play very well and still can't score a goal or even win at home. Do you have any thoughts on this?
Bobby – Adebayor seems to be the most “ruthless” finisher in the squad and that doesn’t say very much. The Rosicky, Fabregas and van Persie misses were quite something – although Helguera howler against Steauamatched them. If the chances were not being created then there would definetly be more to worry about. Wenger has never found his “fox in the box”. However, I think someone is going to get a real clobbering sometime soon.
Djnima - Examining the schedule Liverpool faces after playing Arsenal (Boro, City, Pompey, Wigan, Fulham, Charlton, Watford) and their recent performance against the Villains, do you think Gerrard is finally hitting form and could go on a scoring tear? How about Rooney? Some of his goals were grave defensive errors. Do you think United will slip with all the goals they have been scoring? Must have been a big snowstorm! Sad to not see you appearing on tonight's show . . . was looking forward to it!
Bobby – Liverpool needs to go on a run – first of all they need to get back into contention for a top 4 spot and then go from there. Things balance out so Gerrard’s goal against Bordeaux might be a sign of things to come in the Premiership.
Bolton made defensive mistakes against United that they rarely make. But as with Gerrard, things balance out and Rooney was due a goal or two or three – he took all his goals very well. As for United’s overall goal production – if the squad stays fit there is no reason why they shouldn’t keep scoring a lot of goals but perhaps not quite at the same rate. The best United has ever done was back in 1999/00 season when they avearged 2.55 goals per game – the poorest rate of return was 2004/05 with only 1.53 goals per game. At present their strike rate is 2.3 goals per game which – if they maintained – would be their second best performance ever in the Premiership. Over the last 14 and a bit seasons Manchester United has averaged 1.95 goals per game.
As for Monday night the snow storm was not the reason for missing the show. Sometimes life gets in the way of football and Monday was one of these nights. I had a long standing commitment that could not be moved.
Thanks for the contriuitions this week - there were real crackers.
On a closing note I managed to catch “Once in a Lifetime” this week. I thought it was a great movie. The story telling was fantastic and the soundtrack hit all the right notes – so to speak – with Steely Dan’s “Dirty Work” providing a fitting end.
A few things to chew over after another weekend of interesting performances and results around Europe.
This week Arsene Wenger will complete ten years in charge at Arsenal. Considering Wenger arrived to headlines of “Arsene who” and scurrilous gossip you would have to say he has not done to badly. As far as Arsenal fans are concerned, I would have to reckon that only the great Herbert Chapman would be considered along side Wenger. Chapman died prematurely while in charge at Highbury and never lived to see the full fruits of his labour.
However, what about the great managers who have been in charge of English clubs over the last 40 years or so? How will history rate Arsene Wenger against the likes of Sir Alex Ferguson, Brian Clough, Bob Paisley, Sir Matt Busby, Bill Shankly, Don Revie, Ron Greenwood and Bill Nicholson?
Taking trophies into consideration is one way to look at it but the transformation that Wenger brought to Arsenal in terms of the quality of the football has also to be considered I would think. Has their been a more entertaining side than Arsenal in recent memory?
Ronaldo turned 30 (he is younger than Ruud van Nistelrooy) last Friday and he should have at least another two or three seasons of goal scoring left in him. Should he just retire or should Fabio Capello find a place for him in the Real Madrid starting line-up? Alternatively, come January should he be looking for a change of scenery and if so where should that be?
Hernan Crespo seems to be settling in at Inter Milan. With three goals in two games over 5 days, Crespo seems to be one of the few consistent things about Inter. They sit top of Serie A but they do seem to enjoy making things difficult. Three goals down to Roma in the Italian Super Cup they then scored four to win in extra time. In the first Serie A game of the season, they led Fiorentina 3-0 before holding on for a 3-2 win then this past weekend they went one-step better. This time Inter led struggling Chievo by four before allowing the Verona side to score three times in the last 13 minutes to set up a storming finish.
It is early days in Spain but La Liga does appear to have to makings o####reat title race this season. Real Madrid took advantage of Barcelona and Valencia drawing at the Nou Camp while Atletico Madrid brought Sevilla’s great start to a grinding halt. Two goals in the last five minutes turned a 1-0 deficit into a 2-1 win for Madrid’s other side. Of course Sevilla will point out that they played a quarter of the game after having both Escude (46th minute) and Navarro (66th minute) sent off.
Next weekend Atletico travel to the Bernabeu for the Madrid derby. Atletico and Fernando Torres have horrible records against Real since Atletico returned to the top flight in the 2002/03 season.
Up in Scotland Celtic drew first blood as they increased their lead to seven points over Rangers. It looks as if a quick turnaround in fortune under Paul LeGuen is not going to happen. Do Rangers have any other option other than being patient and staying the course with LeGuen?
Finally, is there any club that has undergone a crazier September than Gretna? Gretna started the month at the top of the Scottish First Division but were soudly spanked 4-0 by Dundee at home before losing 3-2 to Ross County in the Scottish League Challenge Cup.
A mid-month top of the table clash with Livingstone ended in a 1-1 draw while last Wednesday Hibernian thrashed Gretna 6-0 in the CIS Cup. Saturday brought about a turn in fortune when they beat Partick Thistle by the same score and Gretna returned to the top of the Scottish League.
It has not been easy for non-Italian soccer fans to follow the specifics of the scandal that has engulfed Italian soccer the last few months. I have pieced together from various sources the charges, the original punishments, the appeal punishments, the reaction and finally my take on the present situation.
In some cases, the information has been paraphrased or the tense changed.
The Background and Charges - Juventus, Fiorentina, Lazio and Milan.
“How did this investigation begin?
Police, looking into an alleged betting ring wagering on matches in the 2004-05 season, heard a suspect boast that he had a close relationship with Luciano Moggi, the Juventus general manager at the time. This was not true, but police tapped Moggi’s phone and heard him trying to influence the appointment of referees. The transcripts were handed over to the Italian FA in September and were leaked in May after it became clear that there was little likelihood of further action.
Who is also involved?
Five other clubs — Siena, Reggina, Messina and Lecce in Serie A, plus Arezzo in Serie B — have also been indicted but, because they did not qualify for European competition, will be dealt with later.
Will anyone be jailed?
Not at this stage. This was a sporting court, but it means the threshold of proof is lower than in a civil trial or criminal trial.
What were the clubs and individuals accused of?
Attempting to fix a match, fixing a match and failing to report match-fixing or similar “unsporting” behaviour.
Why are Juventus facing the most severe penalty?
Lazio, Fiorentina and Milan stand accused of far lesser crimes. Milan had a consultant who made idle boasts to linesmen. Fiorentina were victimized by match officials controlled by Moggi until the club agreed to stop campaigning against the Juventus general manager, at which point they got a few favourable decisions late in the season and avoided relegation. Lazio lobbied league officials, but there is no evidence that they spoke to anyone involved with referees.”
The Times
“Alleged that Moggi and Giraudo set up a system of influence and corruption whose tentacles reached everywhere, a structure based on threats, intimidation and patronage whose main purpose was to favour Juventus and their allies.
The transcripts of these conversations unveiled the sheer size of Moggi’s operation. There were no bribes or brown envelopes, the evil genius of the system lay in the fact that it was all about influence peddling. Moggi is alleged to have essentially controlled Franco Carraro, the head of the Italian FA, and the two men charged with assigning referees, Pierluigi Pairetto and Paolo Bergamo. The phone taps show Moggi would freely discuss the referee assignments with them, effectively deciding which referee would get which game.
At the same time, it was made clear that a referee’s career would suffer if they made mistakes which damaged Juventus. They would be suspended or sent to officiate in Serie B. In one case, Moggi went even further, underscoring the degree of impunity he had acquired. Following a controversial 2-1 loss to Reggina, he burst into referee Gianluca Paparesta’s dressing room, berated him, then locked him inside before disappearing with the key. On the other hand, those that did Moggi’s bidding would be rewarded with prestigious matches and even spots in Uefa’s list of officials. And those officials who were deemed “untouchable” – like Pierluigi Collina and Roberto Rosetti – were generally kept away from Juve.
As a result, they generally received a helping hand from officials, both directly and indirectly. Teams who were due to face Juventus the following week were regularly hit with a hail of red and yellow cards, ensuring players who were one booking away from a suspension would miss out against the bianconeri. Indeed, during 2004-05, 25 players were suspended the week they faced Juve.
Moggi’s system was so refined that it was used to damage his enemies too. When Fiorentina returned to Serie A in the 2004-05 season, the Florence club had big plans for change. However, allegations claim Moggi saw the club as a threat and Fiorentina were systematically victimized by referees to the point that, as late as April 2005, they faced the threat of relegation.
The allegations also claim that wire-taps suggest there was a deal with Fiorentina officials, whereby the club would drop its campaign for reform in exchange for “better treatment” from referees. It’s unclear whether Fiorentina accepted, though the record books show that they won eight of a possible 12 points in their last four matches to avoid the drop, at a time when the Viola stopped talking about reform.”
The Sunday Herald
The Original Verdicts and Verdicts on Appeal
“A brief rundown of the original sentences and again after the appeals verdicts were delivered.
Juventus Relegated to Serie B with a 30-point penalty – reduced to relegation to Serie B and a 17-point penalty Stripped of last two titles Handed three-match home ban Fined 120,000 euros
Fiorentina Relegated to Serie B with a 12 point penalty – remain in Serie A with 19 point penalty Deducted 30 points from their 2005-06 tally Handed three-match home ban Fined 100,000 euros
Lazio Relegated to Serie B with a 7 point penalty – remain in Serie A with 11 point penalty Deducted 30 points from their 2005-06 tally Handed two-match home ban Fined 100,000 euros
Milan Deducted 44 points from 2005-06 tally – reduced to 30 points from their 2005-06 tally Remain in Serie A with a 15-point penalty – reduced to an 8-point penalty Handed one-match home ban Fined 100,000 euros
Qualify for 3rd round Champions League subject to UEFA acceptance.
Club officials Luciano Moggi (ex-Juventus) banned for five years Antonio Giraudo (ex-Juventus) banned for five years Adriano Galliani (Milan) banned for nine months Leonardo Meani (ex-Milan) banned for two years and six months Andrea Della Valle (Fiorentina) banned for three years Diego Della Valle (Fiorentina) banned for three years Sandro Mencucci (Fiorentina) banned for two years and six months Claudio Lotito (Lazio) banned for two years and six months
FIGC officials Franco Carraro (ex-President) fined 80,000 euros Innocenzo Mazzini (ex-Vice-President) banned for five years
Referees and officials Tullio Lanese banned for two years and six months Pierluigi Pairetto banned for three years Gennaro Mazzei banned for six months Pietro Ingargiola cautioned Massimo De Santis banned for four years Paolo Dondarini cleared Gianluca Paparesta banned for three months Fabrizio Babini banned for six months Claudio Puglisi banned for six months”
Channel 4
The Reaction
“Juventus' former general manager Luciano Moggi and other club executives were found guilty of conspiring with referees and linesmen to rig games during the 2004-05 season.
Italy's system of 'sporting justice' offers one more level of appeal for the club, the Chamber of Arbitration of the Italian National Olympic Committee (CONI), before they can turn to a civil court
"It would have been OK to have Serie A with penalty points and maybe one, not two, of our titles revoked and they shouldn't have removed us from the Champions League," said Cobolli Gigli of Juventus.
Of the four clubs charged, only AC Milan, who had their sentence reduced allowing them to play in the qualifying round of the Champions League next season, have said they will not be appealing the decision.”
The Guardian
Giovanni Cobolli Gigli, the president of Juventus, was equally pugnacious. “We are very disappointed and we refuse to be turned into scapegoats,” he said. “We don’t understand why we’ve been treated more harshly than everybody else. You can be sure that we will appeal in the strongest possible terms. We owe it to our fans and to our shareholders.”
The scandal — the biggest in the history of Italian football — centred on what prosecutors called a “pathological web of influence-peddling” skilfully manoeuvred by Luciano Moggi, the former general manager of Juventus.
With the support of the highest echelons of the Italian FA, as well as an array of agents and journalists, Moggi effectively controlled a number of referees, promising career advancement to those officials who favoured his club and “punishing” others with relegation to minor matches and lower leagues. Fiorentina, Lazio and Milan had faced lesser charges and the court was persuaded that their misdeeds were a means of sel####efence against Moggi’s “system”.”
The Times
But the cut on appeal has met with an angry reaction around Italy. "This is not a hard punishment, this is a bland punishment," said Alessandro Vocalelli, the editor of the Corriere dello Sport. "This is a message that nothing happened but actually a lot happened - the biggest scandal in Italian football happened, and lots of referees and individuals got banned for five years."
With only the tapped phone calls as evidence, much wrongdoing is a question of interpretation. The evidence on Lazio, for example, points at one disputed game.
Rules of the Italian Code of Sporting Justice only require the clubs to appear to be trying to fix a game. No actual evidence of money changing hands is needed to condemn them.
Oddly, a delegation from the Turkish football league were in Rome yesterday, to observe how the Italians had dealt with their probe and to make recommendations to the Turkish FA. Denizlispor are accused of rigging a game last season to avoid relegation. "An inquest will be held," promised Kemal Kapulluoglu, the Turkish FA's vice-president”.
The Daily Telegraph
My Take
Juventus is very lucky still to be in any league let alone getting away with relegation to Serie B and a 17-point penalty. The level of manipulation grossly exceeded that of Genoa at the end of the 2004/05 season and they were demoted the equivalent of two divisions to Serie C given that their promotion to Serie A was rightfully annulled. They have got off very lightly.
Fiorentina and Lazio’s original sentences – in comparison to Juventus and I stress the words in comparison – seemed overly harsh to me. The appeal verdicts do not seem out of line however.
It seems commonly accepted that in Milan’s case there was no systematic attempt to influence games on an on-going basis. In fact, their “attempt” was a bit comical given that the focus was on an assistant referee. A sort of poor-man’s attempt compared to Moggi. Perhaps it could be argued – actually it was argued – that the penalty deduction was too high. Maybe – but I do not believe they should have been reinstated to the Champions League and I hope that UEFA refuse to accept their nomination.
In terms of perception the reduction of sentencing on appeal gives the overall impression that the four teams involved have been let off lightly – and in some cases they have. However, if the original sentences had held up we would heard and read less furour.
One last thing. When posting comments please keep to the facts and away from hatemongering, stereotypical comments and overall ignorance. As one poster pointed out, there are many other juvenile boards that you can post ill-conceived and hateful rhetoric on - so smarten up or my finger will gravitate to the delete button.
No nation or league should consider what has happened in Italy as unique to that country. Dig deep enough and ever country has their skeletons.
All four Italian clubs have had their sentences reduced. All the clubs have seen a substantial reduction in their original punishments. Milan has been reinstated to this season's Champions League.
"Fiorentina and Lazio were restored to Serie A, while Juventus had its points penalty in Serie B cut almost in half after successful appeals in the Italian match-fixing scandal on Tuesday.
AC Milan also had its points penalty in Serie A cut from 15 to eight. Juventus went from 30 to 17. Fiorentina will have 19 points docked in the Italian topflight next season, while Lazio will be minus 11.
The sports court also upheld the July 14 ruling stripping Juventus of its last two Serie A titles. But Milan has been allowed to play in the Champions League preliminary rounds this season."
Juventus now have an extra incentive to hold on to some of the better players as promotion back to Serie A is a more realistic possibility.
The verdict is due very soon but Gazzetta dello Sport reported this morning that the sanctions will be:
Relegated to Serie B and docked points for 06/07 - Juventus, (docked 20 points) Fiorentina (docked 7 points) and Lazio (docked 10 points)
AC Milan to remain in Serie A but excluded from the Champions League and docked 10 to 15 points for 06/07 season.
I will not be surprised if these are the sanctions or something very close. With a 20 point deduction it is the equivalent of demotion to Serie C.
The ramifications are extensive and the impact long term.
The sale of players will take a number of Italian players to other leagues. Traditionally Italian players do not play in other leagues. Vialli, Zola and Di Matteo (Chelsea) are probably the highest profile Italian players to make a living in another league. Di Vaio, Viera, Corradi are either border line or past their best.
Loss of revenue to the clubs and Serie A in general. I saw one estimate - from a reliable and credible journalist - that the loss to Juventus over a three year period (before they could return to Europe ) of close to $500M. That also takes into consideration the required firesale of players e.g. paid around $20M for Patrick Vieira but will be lucky to get $5M tomorrow.
The over supply of quality players will further depress the transfer market and impacts all teams in Europe. Manchester United is rumoured to want $15M for a 30 year-old Ruud Van Nistelrooy - will they get that when you might be able to pick up a 26 yesar old David Trezeguet for maybe half of that.
The quality of Italian teams in the Champions League will be less which means less money flowing to Serie A and an opportunity for other European leagues to fill the vacuum.
I am sure there are more. If you support an Italian team - and particularly one of the four - how do you see it impacting your team. For supporters of other teams how do you think the verdicts will affect your team.
And last but not least will Inter now win Serie A!
Henry Winter says that Alan Shearer will be Steve McClaren’s assistant.
Argentine World Cup winner Ossi Ardilles believes it is time to drop David Beckham. An idea that I think is absolutely daft but perhaps more on that later.
I am the soccer analyst for the Fox Soccer Report and appear twice a week - every Monday and Friday at 10:00 EST. I have also been a regular contributor to the Fox Soccer Channel website since the summer of 2004. Over the last twenty years I have contributed to various radio and television programs throughout North America as well writing about the game for newspapers, magazines and websites.
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