Final Preview Germany vs. Spain A simplistic view might profess that we have two countries coming at Sunday’s final from two very different perspectives. While Germany will look to embrace their football history, Spain will be fighting to overcome theirs.
But, as with many things, the simple view fails to consider the many subtleties at play. For, if Spain is the great under-achiever of European football, then Germany (and the former West Germany) must be the great over-achiever. That may strike some as a strange comment when a scan of the World Cup and European Championship record books show Germany as a six-times winner; runners-up on another six occasions and beaten semi-finalists four times.
When you include Sunday’s final it all adds up to reaching the final four seventeen times from a possible twenty-seven tournaments. And although there have been some outstanding German sides (1970-76 era being a stand out) there are a number of editions that, if described as average, it would be overly generous. It has been the habit of average German teams making it to the latter stages of major tournaments that fits the description of overachievers.
In Germany a side lacking top class talent in all positions isn’t an excuse for failure at the international level. Build a team around what you have, stay organized, wait for the breaks and always fight to the end even though on occasion it may be a bitter one.
And what Germany has had over the last half century or so has been at least one world class player around whom a competitive side could be built. From Fritz Walter to Uwe Seeler, Franz Beckenbauer, Gerd Mueller, Gunter Netzer, Bernd Schuster, Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, Lothar Mattheus, Jurgen Klinsmann, Mattias Sammer, Steffan Effenberg the mantle was passed until it reached Michael Ballack at the beginning of this decade.
All the German greats with the exception of Uwe Seeler won a major international and/or club trophy during their careers. Sunday may be one of the last chances for Michael Ballack to join them. And nobody is more aware of the need to win a major competition than Ballack. Before the Champions League Final he said, “People remember the trophies you win, not the quarter-finals or the semi-finals.”
He might have added finals as well. In 2002 while with Bayer Leverkusen they lost in the German Cup Final, the Champions League Final and completed a horrible treble by blowing a significant lead in the Bundesliga. Then only a few weeks later Ballack had to undergo the anguish of sitting out the World Cup Final against Brazil after picking up a suspension for bookings. Ironically without Ballack it is doubtful whether a poor German side would have made it to the final match.
After moving to Bayern Munich Ballack never got past the last eight in the Champions League and at the 2006 World Cup Germany lost 2-0 to Italy after the semi final went to extra time. This past season another case of “close but no cigar” with a penalty shoot loss to Manchester United in the Champions League Final in Moscow.
Whether or not Ballack can finally hold aloft a major trophy come the final whistle on Sunday will largely depend on his own performance and that of Torsten Frings. No matter if Joachim Lowe opts to play 4-4-2 with Ballack and Frings centering the midfield four or a 4-2-3-1 (more likely) with Frings offering cover as part of a defensive pairing behind Ballack , Podolski and Schweinsteiger the problem that German must solve is how to disrupt Spain’s rhythm.
Eyebrows may have been raised when Luis Aragones replaced David Villa with Cesc Fabregas (midfielder for a striker) but it turned out to be an inspired tactical change that only served to to solidify Spain’s solid start to the semifinal.
With Marcos Senna providing the defensive cover the midfield foursome of Iniesta, Xavi, Silva and Fabregas were free to dictate the pace and tempo of the game. Russia had no answer. If Germany is to win the final they have to control the midfield and that involves closing down space and shutting down passing lanes. If they don’t it will be a new reign for Spain and their first international trophy for 44 years. If Germany does it will be one more example of why you should never under estimate an over-achiever.
Comments of the Day "Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes and at the end, the Germans win," - former England forward and now BBC presenter Gary Lineker.
“Sure, it’s going to be easy for us; all we have to do is to beat Sweden who historically have better results than us, down Greece who are the reigning champions and then Russia and all that will be easy,” – Luis Aragones before the group stage.
Stat Facts 1. Spain is unbeaten in 21 matches (18 wins and three draws) since losing to Romania in November 2006. The Spanish record is 31 matches. 2. Aragones is the oldest coach to lead a team to a European Championship Final. He is 69 years and 337 days old on Sunday. 3. We have already seen 19 goals in the knock stage, that number blows away the 13 goals we were limited to four years ago. 4. Germany has scored six goals in the quarter and semi final games; all six goals have come from crosses delivered or moves started on the left side.
Spain should win the game on Sunday based on football,however,the Germans have their traditional arogant confidence that is their "trademark" and it works for them...
What do you think about one of Germany or Portugal failing to qualify for the 2010wc since the last 2 semifinalists who managed to qualify for next wc were France and Poland back in 1982.
Bobby: Is the dress shirt with no tie or jacket and rolled up sleeves now the official dress code for German managers?
I would recommend it for Slaven Bilic. But I suspect the tie and jacket are the only things that keep him from pulling off the shirt when Croatia score and waving it around his head.
And based on their performance in the Euro qualifiers, I think Scotland have to be quite happy with the group they're in and the prospect it offers for advancement.
England will be nervous. So will France. Germany's group suddenly doesn't look so cut and dried either. Perhaps the manager will need a jacket to hide his nervous sweat stains.
Have you heard the high number of corners that Germany haven't scored from? It's well into 100-110 corners in a row that they haven't scored from. I wonder why they can do so from set-piece crosses but not from corners. Very strange.
Both teams look good going forward and less than convincing at the back. The winner will be determined by whether Senna or Frings gets a grip on the middle of the park.
A couple of Canadian commentators have parroted the line that the Euros are a showcase for better quality football than the World Cup. One of them even mentioned this after watching Austria play. The last time I had this argument with a friend who subscribed to this point of view was when we watched the Czech Republic get destroyed by Ghana in the 2006 World Cup. After that match, he conceded that perhaps the media tend to dismiss the quality of some of the non-European teams at the World Cup. Until a European country can claim the World Cup outside its continent, this argument should be retired. No football tournament is "better" without the likes of Brazil and Argentina.
I am an unabashed admirer of Spanish football. I think Spain have played by far the most balanced football in the tournament.
Even w/o Villa I see them as a powerful attacking side.
I think Fabregas will again shine in this match.
Spain's defense shut down passing lanes against Russia and also their marauding fullbacks. I can see them quite possibly doing the same with Germany.
Germany always seems to be in the mix but I have not been as impressed with this side's performances I was with their WC'06 side.
I think Spain's defense is more solid than Germany
and that includes keepers.
We all know of Spain's terrific ball handlers and winners in midfield.
Upfront I guess it's a draw with healthy arguments for either side having the better players.
I don't think an European country can claim the world cup 2010 title. There are just too many other good national teams from around the world. Brazil and Argentina in South America, Japan, Iran and South Korea in Asia, Egypt and Ivory Coast in Africa and of course Italy, Germany, Spain, France, Portugal and Holland in Europe.
Anyway, the world cup should be interesting as long as FIFA can help build the stadiums and the economy in South Africa.
Rafa says, "the key is to not talk about winning the title but to talk about being around there at the end so we can win the title."
He then goes on to say that if we are indeed around there, "we can go on and win the title."
Well there goes our chances...
But he did say something that interested me and could infuriate our Spanish "contigent". He said winning the PL is harder than winning LL. I do agree and would assume that it goes under the category of saying the PL is a better league but I wouldn't want to stretch it out...:)
Two points about the level of competition at the Euros. Like the World Cup, every European championship has at least one nation of chancers who lucked their way into the finals and were exposed as out of their depth. This year, it was Austria. In 2004, Latvia and Bulgaria were the punching bags. And in 2000, it was, of course, Denmark and England who displayed their technical incompetence and tactical witlessness.
By the way, it looks like the Euros will be further watered down by 2016 after UEFA's member nations universally supported expanding the championship to 24 teams. Read about it here.
'Every club in the world would love to have Ronaldo,' he said. 'It's part of the system we have today, that players move from club to club.
'Madrid would love to get him because the big clubs always want the best. They've had Puskas and Di Stefano in the past and it's normal for them to want Ronaldo, because he is one of the best in the world today, if not the best.'
What exactly in this statement is untrue or inappropriate? Michel Platini is the author. The English media are up in arms and practically calling for his dismissal.
Sounds like something football fans the world over are say to one another on an ongoing basis.
Ballack may be hurt, if he was unable to play would Lehmann be captain? Personnally I would like to see Bastian Schweinsteiger replace Ballack as captain. What would happen to the betting odds? Will Mario Gomez get another chance and replace Ballack? or is it all a rooz to throw off the spanish! We'll find out tomorrow...
Rumors like this always surface before big matches - most players at the end of a long season are carrying knocks. Ballack will play tomorrow, and receive the trophy at the end of the day.
Spain are too cautious and deliberate, and do not put opponents under much pressure. It will be difficult for them to get anything out of the German defence. The Germans look far more likely to get something done against the Spainish back four.
If my memory is correct, Ballack actually missed the Champions League Final in 2002 due to injury. I remember during the World Cup later that year thinking how unlucky he was since he would now miss that final too due to suspension. Am I wrong? Or is perhaps some parallel universe, space-time warp thing?
I admire the Germans and their style of play. They are very skillful and they do not get enough credit for their impeccable technique. I even enjoy watching Ballack, Klose Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Podolski, Meertesacker. These are very, very good players.
Spain is another case altogether. Poetry.
*Puyol and Marchena will finally be tested. There is no doubt Germany will test them with set pieces but they will also run at them with and without the ball. Puyol is getting burnt at least once.
Re success in European Championships not a passport to World Cup qualifying success. Best example I can give is for qualifying for the 74 WC Scotland knocked out Czechoslovakia. Czechoslovakia then won the European championship in 1976 beating the World Champions West Germany in the final. Scotland then drew Czechoslovakia in the WC qualifying group for the 78 WC and beat them again. As a post script there was a certain ESPN Euro 08 presenter (no not Tommy Smythe) who played in the first qualifying game in Prague which Scotland lost. The ESPN Euro presenter was sent off for (if my memory is correct) having a wack at the giant Czech centre back Anton Ondrus.
Last edited by BobbyMcMahon on June 28th at 4:14 PM.
that ESPN presenter was Andy Gray and you know what, he did mention that incedent during Russia-Greece match, he said Nikopolaidis let down Greece just like he did against Czechslovakia, "I was only 20 yrs and when we got back, the first person who was waiting for me was my Mom."
"[Benitez] said winning the PL is harder than winning LL. I do agree and would assume that it goes under the category of saying the PL is a better league but I wouldn't want to stretch it out...:) [emphasis added]"
No, you most certainly wouldn't want to "stretch it out", particularly if you had also quoted the rest of Benitez' sentence ... which I will do now for your convenience:
'"Winning the [PL] title would be the biggest achievement of my career," said Benitez. "It's more difficult than in Spain because teams here spend big money." [emphasis added]'
But if spending more money equates to being a "better league" for you, I won't stand in the way of your curious need to constantly rank the unrankable ...
Tomorrow's final should be exciting Germany vs Spain. Looking forward to a great match.
On another note more problems at Arsenal, and what's this Walcott to wear "The King" Thierry Henry's number 14 jersey next season. Still don't see any major signing for us to rectify our problems in the CB position and CM position.
Bobby good job...Anton Ondrus from Slovan Bratislava was amongst the Slovaks playing on that team...Moder,both Capkovic's, Koloman Gogh,etc...and etc...
From 01.01.1970 To 30.06.2008Date Venue Results Competition
Scotland 2:1 (1:1) Czechoslovakia
26/09/1973 GLASGOW FIFA World Cup™ Qualifier
Czechoslovakia 1:0 (1:0) Scotland
17/10/1973 BRATISLAVA FIFA World Cup™ Qualifier
Czechoslovakia 2:0 (0:0) Scotland
13/10/1976 PRAGUE FIFA World Cup™ Qualifier
Scotland 3:1 (2:0) Czechoslovakia
21/09/1977 GLASGOW FIFA World Cup™ Qualifier
Scotland 1:2 Czech Republic
31/03/1999 GLASGOW Continental Qualifier
Czech Republic 3:2 Scotland
09/06/1999 PRAGUE Continental Qualifier
Czech Republic 3:1 (0:0) Scotland
30/05/2008 PRAGUE Friendly
The Continental Qualifier played in Belgium in 99 was the hardest for the Czechs.
"Two points about the level of competition at the Euros. Like the World Cup, every European championship has at least one nation of chancers who lucked their way into the finals and were exposed as out of their depth. This year, it was Austria..."
"Like the World Cup ... at least one nation of chancers ..."? If only there were only one , or even only a few, at the WC.
Take the 2006 WC: out of 14 non-UEFA/ CONMEBOL teams, exactly 3 made it to Round 2, and none to the QFs (13 of 18 UEFA/ CONMEBOL teams advanced from the groups).
How many of those 14 ex-Europe/ S. America teams would you qualify as "chancers"? Many more than the one or two one can name from any Euros ...
To put it another way, 10 of the top 15 teams in the world have just been facing off against each other in the Euros, and the lowest ranked non-host, Sweden, is currently at 30. What do you think is the average ranking of all the countries in the WC group stage?
"Until a European country can claim the World Cup outside its continent, this argument [that the Euros are a showcase for better quality football than the World Cup] should be retired."
Until a non-European country other than Brazil, Argentina, or Uruguay can win the WC-- or even make it to the final-- the argument that the Euros are in general more competitive than the WC holds up (I'm agreeing with LGB's formulation) ...
There is nothing wrong with playing the World Cup...However,in the first round there are many many countries who only qualified because they were seperated in very weak regions and helped along the way in the FIFA's structure....
If you took Mexico,Brazil and Argentina to the current Euro,you would have a real World Cup,then....
First, don't diminish yourself by quoting the FIFA rankings. They don't belong in any serious debate.
Second, don't muddle the issue. I was weighing the relative merits of the Euros versus the World Cup. South American countries compete in one competition not the other and was the point of mocking the notion that the Euros are inherently better.
Third, using the 2006 World Cup is what pollsters would call a selective sample. For the record, the other regions all did reasonably well in 2002, when the World Cup was held outside of Europe. North America, Asia and Africa countries all reached the quarterfinals, Korea made the semis and a non-European country, Brazil, won the tournament. Yes, I know they made your subjective list of countries I can't use as an example of why the World Cup is better than the Euros. When the Selecao are allowed to enter the Euros, I'll cede the point. Until then, your point is, well, pointless.
Fourth, I have watched the World Cup since 1986 and have seen the gap continue to narrow between the established footballing powers in Europe and South America and developing footballing world, particularly the west African powers. I'll be interested to see how they do with home continent advantage in 2010. I'll make a wager that one of them will reach the finals and may even reach the finals, particularly if the officiating is as friendly for them as it was for Asian teams in 2002 and European ones in 2006.
Last edited by albertagooner on June 28th at 8:49 PM.
"First, don't diminish yourself by quoting the FIFA rankings."
Do you have a better way to establish the relative merits of various national teams? If so, I'm all ears. If not, then FIFA rankings it is, flaws and all.
"Second, don't muddle the issue. I was weighing the relative merits of the Euros versus the World Cup."
Don't muddle the issue-- I was replying to your statement that "Like the World Cup, every European championship has at least one nation of chancers". As I pointed out, the number of what you qualify as "chancers" is vastly greater at the WC than at the Euros.
"Third, using the 2006 World Cup is what pollsters would call a selective sample. For the record, the other regions all did reasonably well in 2002 ..."
So let's combine 2002 and 2006, for a sample that includes a European and a non-European host: out of 26 non-UEFA/ CONMEBOL countries, 8 made it out of group stage, 3 to the QFs, and one (host South Korea in a one-off miracle) to the Semis. That's it.
To repeat the question you so artfully dodged, how many of those 26 ex-Europe/ S. America teams would you qualify as "chancers"?
Your point is, well, pointless. Next ...
"Fourth, I have ... since 1986 ... seen the gap continue to narrow between the established footballing powers ... and developing footballing world ..."
No question. But that is beside the point about the relative competitiveness of the Euros and the WC, except to emphasize that the gap was even worse 20 years ago.
Last edited by Ursusarctos on June 28th at 9:18 PM.
"Do you have a better way to establish the relative merits of various national teams?"
Jeez, I guess I'd go with performances at tournaments.
Having the read the rest of your post, it's pretty clear you're trolling for a fight. And you know what -- it's not worth my time, sport. Enjoy the final.
""Do you have a better way to establish the relative merits of various national teams?"
Jeez, I guess I'd go with performances at tournaments."
Agreed-- which is exactly what I was doing with my WC performance comparisons. Unfortunately, that approach doesn't support your position either, so we then get this classic cut-and-run:
"Having the read the rest of your post, it's pretty clear you're trolling for a fight. And you know what -- it's not worth my time, sport."
Fascinating, since I was either replying to your points, or quoting your own (trolling for a fight) words back at you. But then, if the argument is failing on the merits, the old standby of a personal attack and then passive-aggressive avoidance always works, eh?!
Tell you what, sport-- forget about my points, Mirocz made a similar point very succinctly:
"There is nothing wrong with playing the World Cup...However,in the first round there are many many countries who only qualified because they were seperated in very weak regions and helped along the way in the FIFA's structure...."
The implication of Mirocz' point is that in the opening rounds, the variation in quality between the teams is greater at the WC than the Euros.
He doesn't want to respond ,because he knows that I am right...
Countries in some of the FIFA regions just do not play at the level as Europe and/or some countries in Europe...
We all want Canada to qualify for the WC 2010,at whom expense?
England,Denmark,Uruguay,England,Ser bia? and etc and etc....
A country that has no national league,be it junior and/or senior will go to the WC as someone who shouldn't really be at?
I love Canada,however,we need a lot of work here,before we can say we are a WC country....
It's not just Canada,Canada is one of the Countries that come close as should be there,but there are worse examples....CostaRica,Trinidad,some of the African countries etc...and etc...
I know that Canadians' love ice hockey, but I can't understand why football did not maintain its own popularity, given the close relationship to Britain (when compared to the US). Not to mention the stream of immigrants from footballing nations.
If someone can explain this or direct me to a reliable link with more info on this, that would be great.
Is it true that when the four British teams (England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Irland) fail to qualify to a big tournament, they start talking about expanding it?
Actually I didn't want to waste my time with a troll using absurd logic and artificial contructs such as the FIFA rankings. However, I'll respond to your statement -- "Countries in some of the FIFA regions just do not play at the level as Europe and/or some countries in Europe..."
Really? That's a pretty patronizing statement. Well, I actually attended several games at the 2002 World Cup, where the United States and South Korea came out o####roup with Portugal and Poland. In fact, I was at the match in Suwon, when the States beat the Portugese golden generation. I also remember watching the world champions lose 1-0 to Senegal. That's why they play the games, sport, otherwise the Czech Republic would have gone through instead of being beaten like a gong by Ghana in 2006. Did you bother to catch that match?
How long have you followed football? Just curious because I've seen the gap narrow substantially between Europe and the rest of the world since Canada embarrassed itself in 1986, particularly with African countries. Mexico regularly impresses by beating European teams as did the United States.
Here's a couple of points for your edification. The FIFA rankings, while dismissed by most knowledgeable fans as an exercise in piffle, DO have an influence when it comes to seeding teams. Because the rankings give more weight to games played between European and South American nations, it has the effect of keeping apart the traditional powers. This is why England -- technically inept and tactically witless is currently rated ninth . . .
. . . What this does during the World Cup draw is pretty much rig the groups to allow enough of the European powers go through, an arrangement that certainly would be supported by FIFA's commercial partners and who want attractive matches to broadcast to their audiences. It's one reason why sponsors were moaning about England missing the Euros, who didn't really miss the Three Lions. Of course, this is context is missing in any serious discussion about the merits of the World Cup versus the Euros, but that's fine. If people really think a competition with Austria or Latvia is better than one with Brazil and Argentina, that's your subjective opinion.
One last point. This, um, debate highlights a major problem with the Internet is it provides great access to facts without knowledge or perspective. When I went to Spain's match against South Africa in 2002, we wound up sitting next to some wonderful folks from Sevilla waiting for an eternity for the train to take us back from Taejeon. They were struck by the quality of football in the match by both sides and agreed Bfana Bfana were unfortunate to lose 3-2. One older gentlemen recalled one World Cup from the 1970s when a Zambian defender embarrassed himself against Brazil by kicking the ball against the Selecao, who were lining up a free kick. The gap had narrowed. Now a Wikipedia cowboy with access to the stats would only see the 3-2 scoreline rather than the big picture. That's why I'm beginning to realize its pointless to argue some posters in this forum. Enjoy the final.
Last edited by albertagooner on June 29th at 10:10 AM.
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