This BBC article explains how next year’s European places will be divvied out in England. Gretna hanging onbut the end seems to be near.
The chance to focus on the Scottish game doesn’t come around too often but hard on the heels of Rangers making it to the last eight of the UEFA comes the first major final of the season. Rangers has a chance to lift a cup for the first time in three years while in the case of Dundee United it has been closer to fourteen seasons since they had something to celebrate.
The Ibrox turnaround engineered by Walter Smith since his return to the club last January has been incredible. Inheriting a team from French Coach Paul LeGuen that had lost six of twenty-three league games and been knocked out of the Scottish Cup at the first hurdle, Smith went about restoring some much needed confidence and lost only two leagues (the last two and Celtic had already secured the title) the rest of the season.
A place in this season’s Champions League last sixteen proved to be too much but after dropping to the UEFA Cup Rangers have beaten both Panathinaikos and Werder Bremen and await their fate when the draw is made tomorrow (Friday).
Rangers also lead the SPL by three points and have a game in hand over Celtic. However, of the eleven league games still to play Rangers and Celtic have to face each other three times. Both clubs are still alive in the Scottish Cup and have been kept apart in the semi-final round. But first Rangers must see off Partick Thistle in next Wednesday’s rearranged quarter final match.
Rangers may retain an interest in four competitions but Walter Smith is well aware that the Rangers faithful are unforgiving if success is not delivered in regular doses and Sunday provides an opportunity to make it one down and three to go.
It is somewhat ironic that Rangers opponents are Dundee United – the first team Smith faced on his return (a 5-0 win) and a team where he got his coaching start under the legendary Jim McLean. Smith was on United’s coaching staff when they won their first major trophy in 1980 beating Alex Ferguson’s Aberdeen in the League Cup Final.
It was the first visible crack in the Old Firm’s domination of Scottish football and by season’s end Aberdeen had won the first of three league titles under Fergie and over the next six seasons Aberdeen and United became known as the “New Firm”.
The next eleven seasons would see United make it to nine domestic finals, the UEFA Cup final, as well as winning the Scottish League and coming within a whisker of a place in the 1984 European Cup Final.
But making it to the final of a competition is one thing, winning is something else and over the ten finals United won only two – the aforementioned League Cup win in 1980 and they repeated the year after.
After McLean’s “retirement” from the dugout after 22-years United went through a cavalcade of managers with a Scottish Cup win over Rangers in 1994 the only highlight. After a televised run-in with a BBC reporter in 2000 the McLean-era began to grind to a conclusion although it would take another couple of years before he sold his shareholding to local businessman and United fanatic Eddie Thompson.
Thompson soon showed himself to be a match for McLean in firing managers as he axed five managers in his first six seasons as owner. It has only been since the arrival of Craig Levein in late 2006 that a level of stability and success has returned to Tannadice.
Levein has United third in the league at the moment and they played Celtic to a scoreless draw at Parkhead on Wednesday night.
There is a real sense of optimism around the club that United can at again be a force in Scottish football although the halcyon days enjoyed under McLean are unlikely to return.
But even though some level of success may be in the future for United this might be the last chance that their owner Eddie Thompson will have to see his beloved side lift a Cup. For the man who put his money where his mouth was to the tune of many millions of pounds is battling what looks to be an unwinnable battle with cancer.
Thompson has already put his financial affairs in order with members of his family being appointed to various positions within the club and Levein was appointed to a position on the board of directors a few weeks ago.
United will be taking close to 17,000 to Sunday’s final at Hampden and many will be wearing special tangerine t-shirts to show support for Thompson with proceeds going to fund cancer research.
North American connection - When I first saw Dundee United play in the early sixties they played in various combinations of black and white. So where did their present distinctive tangerine kit come from?
The year after the 1966 World Cup the United Soccer Association (a forerunner to the North American Soccer League) decided to import twelve teams to play during the summer in North America.
Each team played under the moniker of their adopted North American city and Dundee United became the Dallas Tornado.
The Tornado colours were tangerine and the idea to change kit was planted back then. The switch was made in 1969 with the first British showing against Everton in pre-season friendly.(check half way down to see a United as Dallas team photo).
United’s centre half Doug Smith – a player who many considered one of the best players never to be capped by Scotland – made the Second All Star team along with some other memorable names.
I'm sure you've explained this to the old-timers on your blog, but for us newbies:
You have mentioned being a lifelong Dundee FC supporter, if I'm not mistaken. How did you end up supporting Dundee, instead of neighbouring United? Was it personal preference, or related to a split of some sort in traditional football allegiances in the city?
Last edited by Ursusarctos on March 14th at 12:24 AM.
"We are trying to figure out the probability of all four EPL teams missing each other in the UCL QF’s. I come up with 22.6% for all EPL teams to miss each other."
"Think of it this way- all four English teams avoiding each other is exactly the same as saying that each non-English team will have to be paired with a PL one. So no matter who is drawn first (English or non), the odds of the next team meeting those conditions are the same: 4/7. And so on.
A quick back of the envelope:
First team drawn if English has 4/7 odds of being paired with non-English (four of the seven remaining teams are not English), or conversely if non-English has 4/7 odds of being paired with a PL rep. Second therefore has 3/5 (no matter who), third then has 2/3, and last of course has 1/1.
So: 4! / (7x 5x 3x 1) = about 22.9% for all four events to occur sequentially."
Bobby, if you can have a peek at your crystal balls(certainly not on air) and foretell that 'Gers will remain in first at season's end, I just might lean a little toward the Tangerines.
That's a good story they've written for themselves this year - a great performance to pay tribute to their ailing owner.
More than that, it's nice to see the wealth get spread a little in Scotland. The Old Firm have their staunch backers, but I think any Scotsman who gives a dram about the state of the game gets behind any of the lesser Scottish teams when they're deserving.
Wouldn't mind seeing Caley Thistle earn some reward for all the entertaining trouble they've caused bigger clubs recently.
I think the Ultras have chased away family viewers though their constant violence and the stadiums in italy are empty. surely, if I want to go watch the game with my son, i would not do so in italy.
that is the problem the serie a has to address. Break away from hooligans, find a way to bring in families with kids to watch the game, that is how you grow your fan base.
TWO CENTS
ULTRAS are first and foremost diehard fans who love to support their teams on a weekend. Go to a Curva Sud on a regular weekend and be humbled by the displays. In 20 years of going to Italy I've never been assaulted or threatened.
A minority will be violent.
Just like football everywhere
Italian stadiums have been half full for a while - unless the game is deemed BIG. Even the San Siro is half full unless it's a derby, juve or maybe la viola come to Milan.
MAO
Injury reports prior to the game cite Manny Ossie and Nuno as injury doubts.
Cahill seems to operate better in a five man midfield
Ossie put in an enormous performance.
Basically I dunno.
VVV
The second leg performance was as dominant for the home side as the first leg was for the home side.
PK are a b-itch. They were practiced on the WED.
We should have buried it in the first 120, Frey and some unfinished chances kept it to two.
It'll be a harsh lesson for DM et al; one that will become useful next season in Europe.
Some good Serie A games this week and better still some of them are actually on FSC.
SPECIAL
He's in Pole position to get the job he wants.
Duty calls so I'll carry this on later of you're interested.
URSUS
In amidst all your research heavy posts I didn't see any mention of what EFC do with Yob, Jags and Lescott. Does that mean you can't or you won't?
BOBBY'S TIES
OK so he's wearing a uniform, but does he actually wear the pants or is he kicking back in a pair of denims of pajamas and bunny slippers behind the desk?
EUROPE
ROMA
BAYERN
Will be the don't want draws.
Fenerbache and Schalke will be favoured (which just goes to show)
As it is I'd like to see at least all one PLvPL tie
LGB
Repetion of utter shiite doesn't make it any less utter shiite though!
Ursus-YOu mean having a representative in the last three finals, an average of two teams in the semi's the past three years(with three last year), and four this year in the QF isn't making it consistent?
As for the UEFA Cup, two of the English teams lost to Champions League squads. Tottenham and Bolton were more than competitive in the ties, as was Everton in theirs.
Craigy-Repetitively saying its utter shiite doesn't make it utter shiite, either.
So we got the Gunners. Thats the team I wanted to avoid the most. I was hoping that we got Schalke or Barca.
Oh well, if we dispose of Arse looks like another Chelsea/Liverpool semifinal!
L fancy arsenal to go simply because liverpool are more suited to the european approach than the english style and that arsenal simply have a better team.the big bonu is that it allows wenger to play 4-4-2 which l think arsenal enjoy and this whole anfield fortress #### is ####
More disappointed that Arsenal would most likely play two English teams to make the final. Could be exciting but still wanted to see some action against the other leagues. This means Arsenal play Liverpool 3 times in the course of 1 week.... I guess that will settle who has the better central midfield.
I think all the ties are pretty competitive with the possible exception of Barcelona - Shalke.
Liverpool vs Arsenal and Man United vs Roma are toss ups. While Chelsea is slight favorite against Fener.
In the UEFA Cup
PSV vs Fiorentina should be great and could go either way. The same goes with Rangers vs Sporting.
Bayern Munich will be the favorite over Getafe, but an upset is not out of the question. Zenith is also slight favorites over Bayer Leverkusen.
I am feeling confident about liverpool's chances.People wrote us off last season when we were drawn against barcelona and we dealt with their case with pure class. We beat them so convincingly that the catalan fans were singing You'll Never Walk Alone at the end of the gsme. We have a more potent history in this competition than anyone remaining. Plus we have Terminator torres who is in better form than any other center foward right now and one of the best cup managers in the world things are looking very good I just hope our defense can hold up over 2 legs and our midfield is going to have to work their arses off
Also: May the good Lord strike me dead if Atleti lose against resurgent Levante. LEVANTE, for christ's sake! They've managed to close the gap quite a bit with few wins recently.
THE UEFA CUP TIE: BAYERN v GETAFE (SUPERGETA)
My money is on Geta.
Interesting thing about the 8 clubs in CL is that they are all in the midst of very intense domestic races, whether for titles or CL placings for next year.
Even Liverpool, with no title hopes, have to keep playing their best players each week to retain fourth. Otherwise, they're all in tight title races.
That should mean good value for fans with the intriguing series of upcoming Premier League games amongst the contenders.
But if there's one club that I think would sacrifice a league title in order to fulfill its churning Euro ambitions, it's Ar5ena1. For all the domestic succes Wenger has brought them, to say nothing of jealous glares from the Kirov Ballet, they still haven't won as many European trophies as Tottenham Hotspur.(couldn't resist)
Plus, they've looked a little delicate this year. I heard that Fabregas had to be stretchered off the training ground clubhouse floor after nicking himself shaving after practice.
I know Fergie wants the European Cup badly, but he wants it all, all the time, and he's about to assume pole position in the Prem. Ar5ena1, I'm willing to bet, will take a more pragmatic approach and save their best for Europe.
It'll be interesting, too, to see how Roma's domestic fortunes play out. Inter have the tougher sked and if they slip up, Roma may be tempted to put the priority on a storybook comeback to win the league.
I guess liverfools is not that bad. All u have to do is stop Captain Fantastico and Torres easier said than done.
A great possibility of another repeat final Arsenal V. Barca, Wonder where Henry's heart will be when that happens?
As a football fan I would absolutely hate to see another Liver Vs. Chelsea semi.
Best option would be a Arsenal vs. Fernabache and Barca Vs. Roma, whoever would make the fianl from that it would still be an all out attacking final.
Last time Arsenal had to play liverpool more than once in a week we beat them 3-1 and the famous 6-3 at Antfield. So hopefully it will be the same story only this time we have to make it 3 wins in 3 games.
Where is the first game Antfield or Emirates?
Last edited by Gunner44 on March 14th at 11:40 AM.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I never watch the Blue-side (except in derbies, of course), so I don't have an opinion. Just not interesting enough, you know ...
Maybe next year when DM has them crashing out of the CL instead, eh?
"YOu mean having a representative in the last three finals, an average of two teams in the semi's the past three years(with three last year), and four this year in the QF isn't making it consistent?"
The number of PL teams in the Semis and Finals is not as reliable an indicator as the Quarters, due to the CHANCE operation of the draw.
If Chelsea had just been drawn against United, as well as LFC-Arsenal, that would mean a maximum of two English teams in the Semis this year, against three last year- surely a sign that Premier League domination of Europe is on the wane, right?!
There are also, inevitably, one or two significantly weaker teams in every draw, that every other participant could reasonably expect to defeat. If English teams are lucky enough to meet them in the Quarters several years in a row, up goes PL representation in the Semis purely through chance (since if those "weak sisters" had been drawn against Italian teams, Serie A representation would improve instead of that of the PL).
If you insist on using Semis or Finals places, then you will need more than three years to "prove" anything with a high degree of confidence. A multi-year trend in the number of teams from each national league making it to the Quarter-finals might be interesting, due to the larger pool and draw preventing national ties (I don't know if there is such a trend or not).
As you said: "As for the UEFA Cup, two of the English teams lost to Champions League squads."- which makes my point about the effect of chance in draws!
Flash your honestly more obsessed with Arsenals Europe record then Arsenal fans are. Anyone of sound mind knows these tournaments are a cruel fate of the draw, injuries and where the fixtures land. Not sure exactly how you save your best for Europe when you play the same team 3 times in a week, especially if Arsenal are carrying any of the same injuries currently they wont even be able to change the line up between the 3 games.
LGB, I'm NOT saying the pronouncements about PL dominance of the Champion's League are necessarily wrong.
My point is only that they are at best over-hasty (and at worst ... well, I'll avoid an anti-media rant ...).
Until one can discount the effects of chance to a high enough degree of confidence, the superficial "conclusions" are simply mistaking the results for the causes (we see factual "dominance" in terms of places, and we ASSUME causal "dominance" in terms of team quality has led to it), without accounting for the effects of chance.
Test that assumption by reducing the possible effects of chance, and you may well have a case- but not yet ...
"Flash your honestly more obsessed with Arsenals Europe record then Arsenal fans are. Anyone of sound mind knows these tournaments are a cruel fate of the draw, injuries and where the fixtures land."
Hhmm, are you sure you are not already preparing the excuses for the conclusion of the LFC-Arsenal tie?!
No this has been my stance on the CL and any type of knockout tournament forever. In the run up to that week if Torres goes down with an injury I would accept that as a huge turning point in the ties. Same goes for Arsenal and there key players. People always try to gloss over the importance of injuries as it happens to every team but when they happen and who it is should not be ignored. I'm still someone who is confident Chelsea win the league last year if Cech doesn't get his head cracked. Lets hope that each teams fields their relatively best lineups for the week but why do I have a horribly sinking feeling that RvP will be just peaking back into form as he goes off to play in a meaningless international friendly and gets injured again. Spain vs Italy March 26th 1 week before the first leg.... both teams will be heavily invested in that game.
To me Liverpool fans have many reasons to be happy facing an Arsenal team who 1)are not in form 2)only getting players back from injuries 3)boast inferior quality on the bench. Great as the Milan games were, it covered Arsenal's weakness, which may well be exposed to Liverpool's direct and more physical approach. ManU and Chelsea must be cheerful now.
Hey, c'mon. Those were gentle digs at club l'arse. Comes with the territory.
I'm not bashing 'em here. They've done very well to get this far, but I think the drive to win in Europe outweighs all other considerations. Wenger wants this very badly. It's the next level of success he hasn't achieved yet.
There was nothing said earlier that they'd forfeit, but they'll govern their resources carefully, especially if depth continues to be an issue.
I think they'll fight hard to win the Prem, but they'll probably fight a little harder to win CL. Given a choice of committing the best resources between a closely-scheduled league game and a CL matchup, I think they're at a point where the latter would be the priority.
Last edited by flashman on March 14th at 12:30 PM.
1) are not in form. The games are over 2 weeks away and 3 matches away.
2) depends from what angle you approach this. some people will say RvP hasn't played all year and is out of form others will say that just means hes not tired and has 3 games to get back into form. I mention him as hes by far the most important player Arsenal need to come back strong with maybe the exception of Toure who will be back anyways at full strength as hes beyond a warrior.
3) I can understand saying Arsenal lack depth when compared to Man U and Chelsea but to Liverpool come on. Pools 7 man bench vs Inter was Riise, Crouch Pennant, Benayoun, Voronin, Arbeloa and Itandje... Hardly a player I'm scared or envious of. Arsenals bench is not much better right now but if some players can get back from injury I rather have guys like Walcott, Bendtner, Senderos, Denilson and even Eboue backing up the first XI.
Don't know how many of you get the Guardian's 'Fiver' gossip sheet emailed each day, but occasionally they come up with some brilliant turns of phrase.
Today's include "...a worse record away from home than Eliot Spitzer...", a cheeky reference to Glasgow Rangers as the "Lhight Bhlues" and this passage relating to our current topic of discussion:
"Of course, if Arsenal make it to the final they could also wind up meeting Barcelona. Which begs the question: exactly how loudly would Gooners yelp if Thierry Henry chose that match to finally prove he's no big-game bottler? More or less loudly than if their domestic and European campaigns were sabotaged in the space of a few April days in by another Arsenal legend? Over to you, Jermaine Pennant."
Personally, I'm not thrilled about getting Liverpool. Yes, we've played them well in the Benitez era and I think we match up against them nicely in the back -- where Gallas and Toure have the pace to play against Torres and front -- where I expect Adebayor to do well against Carragher/Skrtel/Hyppia (Agger's absence will help us in this regard). But all that said, Benitez is a pretty canny tactician, maybe the best of the remaining managers. Having the return leg at Anfield is a huge advantage, too.
Chelsea had better win against Fenerbache or they'll need to be buying out another manager. I think they'll negotiate their way through, but it will be a lot closer than people expect.
Barcelona should comfortably ease past Schalke 04.
I'll take Roma to upset Manchester United. Just a hunch based on Roma's recent form and United's unimpressive display against Lyon and the club's recent European history.
Nooooo not Liverpool, out of all the teams Liverpool was the team that I did not want to face. Damn it man.
LGB - Inter ain't no Arsenal remember that!
All in all this could work in our favour. Fenerbahce will definitely be a challenge to Chelsea, for this will be Chelsea's first real challenge of the tournament. Manchester United vs Roma II. Roma will be going into to this tie having something to prove. A much stronger team than the one that got whipped by Manchester United. Could Schalke upset Barcelona? YES, they will.
Gunners Sound It ... BOOM!!! "We don't sign superstars, we make them"
Last edited by ReggaeGunner on March 14th at 1:59 PM.
Ursus - Afraid so. Ouch...
Don't really want to sit through another three and a half hours of nothing only to lose another penalty shoot-out ,Cech never has saved a penalty.
I'll take Liverpool in the PL game in between though.
I'm discounting Fenerbahce ,the effect of the crowds in Istanbul is over-rated ,Welcome to Hell? Chelsea's two previous games there have been a 5-0 win over Galatasaray and a 2-0 over Besiktas.
After re-doing my calculations I still come up with a Chelsea/Roma final.
I have a hot tip for tomorrow ,Sunderland 1-0 Chelsea.
Heard it on the 'radio' from someone we all know.
I'd have to go with the first choice because the goal is still CL action for next season. Aguirre really needs to get sacked though. He really is an awful coach.
Agree Roma is a different Team then last year, but so is United. This year when faced by Roma we did fine a win and a draw. United has a much deeper squad this year, and I believe they have the skill and fortitude to see off the Roman threat.
I'm not crazy about drawing the pool either but I prefer them to the mancs and the chavs. Arsenal have a killer fixture schedule and something will definitely give way. We don't have the squad for it, all this nonsense talk about "the double" is just that, nonsense. We just have the luxury of hoping for a single trophy this season, we don't have enuf for more than that.
I love Wenger but this constant lack of squad depth is a really stupid choice on his part. Our style of play causes frequent long-term injuries, more so than a lot of other clubs. Wenger refuses to compensate for this with a deeper squad.
Rafa gets so intensely criticized for his rotation yet look at how the pool look at the business end of the season. They're on fire, with fresh legs.
Still, I think we have a good chance against them in the CL, at least. The league game is another question.
And for someone so supposedly informed and fixated on Arsenal, I'm surprised at flashy's ignorance about Wenger's priorities. Any informed gooner who's paid attention these last 12 years will tell you immediately that Wenger's #1 priority is ALWAYS the league, the league, the league. This year it is ESPECIALLY the case because he hasn't won it since 2004. Yes, the CL is very important to him, he desperately wants a European trophy but push comes to shove, he won't sacrifice the league for it as long as that title is within reach. He'll do it only if he believes that the league is lost. That's what he did in the 2005-06 season when we reached the final. As long as the league title is within his
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