James Lawton draws a parallel between the Premiership proposal and what the move of the Brooklyn Dodgers led to in the USA. (Insert craigy_f’s dismissive comment of Lawton here.)
I would happily link to a credible article that supports the Premiership’s ludicrous, ill-conceived and badly managed proposal but I have yet to find one. Almost all the stuff that is supportive is based on the concept of “I can see my team in Bombay” or “Money – Good, More Money – even Better”.
Raphael Honigstein on this season’s edition of Bayern Munich.
Simon Kuper spends sometime with Glenn Hoddle who is working on an interesting player development idea.
David Owen says that Manchester United has failed to punch its weight in Europe and it is down to the expectations of how the team should play.
Isn’t this convenient – international play takes a toll but travelling to Saudi Arabia to play a game doesn’t.
LGB: "And finally the lost profits I've been BLEEP ing on about...Again, what? I asked once IF they HAVE to report their full earnings and it was never brought up again. Nice try though!"
Nice try indeed, LGB.
Several threads back I listed in detail some of the rules concerning the reporting of LFC earnings- right after you asked that very question ... convenient to not see what you don't want to, isn't it?!
But to see what you "missed" the first time it was posted ... look here: Speakers' Corner #69 Responses (29 Jan), your question near the bottom of page 2, and my detailed answer right at the top of page 3 (make sure you read BOTH posts)-
[URL = http://community.foxsports.com/blog s/BobbyMcMahon/2008/01/29/Speakers_ Corner_69_Responses?page_no=3]
So no more excuses, LGB-
Where are the missing LFC profits you were on about so much?
And, how are the financial consequences of the acquisition of LFC by the Dynamic Duo not a potential disaster for the club?
Last edited by Ursusarctos on February 10th at 9:44 PM.
LGB: "So its conventional(read:crowd) wisdom that the owners brought in Torres? No thats a fact, not conventional wisdom. It didn't happen on any other owners' watch...
Yes I have still refuted your argument. Doesn't matter how many numbers you drop you still can't deny the fact that the "Dynamic Duo" brought in Torres. You just can't."
Having experience with your attitude to numbers, I shouldn't be too surprised... the sale of other players and loans from the bankers paid for Torres to be brought in, and LFC supporters will repay the borrowing costs. The only involvement of the Dynamic Duo was to bask in the credit from the fickle mob. Well done, LGB ...
Your reply to verbal 97 was also most interesting: "it doesn't matter what the owners do because its not the owners who set the morale."
"Set the morale"? What are you- a computer programmer?! Team morale is not something that is "set" by coding a series of instructions for player performance! Anything that affects the mood or confidence of players by definition affects morale- whether it is a Gerrard foray that increases players' belief and spurs them on to better efforts, or public stupidity from owners that causes headlines, distracting players and staff from match preparations and raising doubts about the future.
LGB: "You are allowed to read what want into [Carra's comments] but it still won't change what Carra actually said."
Endlessly repeating something without supporting arguments does not make it true, LGB ...
Bobby, from your point of view, do you think Setanta Sport which charges $15/m in canada will have any success? I think the premier league might be squeezing its loyal subscribers out.
I don't think there are many people in Canada who are soccer crazy enough to pay that kind of money. If it was hockey, yes. but soccer... I doubt. It's only the die hard or professional analysts like you who will pay for it.
I had a few friends from Africa who used to wake up every morning to watch the EPL, but now they don't really bother...
btw 300,000 subscribers in china on pay tv. wow. that is not even enough. how much do they pay per month? $15?
Last edited by Thierry_Henry on February 10th at 10:32 PM.
BOBBY
Maybe I'll insert something later on at my leisure (too busy for anything but a wuickie this morning)
Did you watch the Udinese V Juventus game?
Did it live up to your billing?
Did any other game surpass it?
Of the games I watched Atalanta V Fiorentina was the best. The comments from the commentator about having the 'bottle to stay in fourth" were quite brilliantly perceptive.
James Lawton could draw parallel lines and his veracity would still be suspect.
Ursus-I'm sorry but I still have only asked once about those profits. I'm not ####ing on about anything....you keep bringing that up. If you'd like I can repost your past five responses to the one question I asked. It seems to stroke your ego quite a bit and whatever I can do to help raise your, erm, morale I have no problem doing.
The owners brought in Torres. No ifs, ands or buts about it. Including numbers dropping.
I'm not a computer programmer, I work in insurance. Funny thing is, is that anyone who has played sports on a high level will tell you that outside influences really don't effect team chemistry all that much. Not because there aren't other important facts in life but because of the hard work and dedication it takes to make it at such a high level.
The fact that an owner and a manager fight is not uncommon at all so its not new to most top players. Speculation that a manager might be fired is not new to playes either.
And finally back to what Carra says...Carra is my supporting argument. The fact the bad results started well before this owner/manager fight is my supporting argument. In fact the inconsistent league results started well before this year is another supporting argument. I'm sorry you had such high hopes, I had them too, but I'm used to being let down by sports and am able(obviously) to cope with it much better without making sorry excuses.
As a Buffalo sports fan I've seen it all. Last second misses, bad coaching, officiating costing the game but this is the first time that I've heard a bunch of fans ACTUALLY blaming the owners for
Griz, If I were you I would leave it be mate, you are b.a.n.g.i.n.g (edit bleep) your noggin on a rock, the latter of which will never crack.
Carlos Quieroz blames international friendlies, so what was Dubai? Perhaps #### are looking to buy out the Glazers after failing to dislodge Hicks??
Watford won at Ipswich and broke their 15 game winning streak at home. Is their blip over and could they run out Champions, to do a boomerang back to the premiership, to be a relegation contender.................
Dowie got fired so Coventry need a gaffer.
Man it is freezin up here today at -30C and windchill to 42C below. How do you live here Bobby?
David Villa looks the business. Hope the Rafalution hires him soon but with just 27 million in the kitty for the next 18 months I wonder if he will? Quality bit of finishing yesterday though and a better free kick than the Jimmy Bullard one.
Jose is quiet except for the puppet on Score on Sunday. I do wonder what he's up to?
What's your opinion on Inter Milan Bobby? Can Rafa's redmen overcome the blue of Milan do you think? Who is your favourite for this year's Champions League and UEFA Cups?
Last edited by redfan2000 on February 11th at 6:27 AM.
T Henry, a lot was said about the price when Setanta came on line last year.
I told Mr O'Rourke personally that I would not pay 15 bucks, JUST to watch my team, especially when they don't even carry all my team's games. I will not buy it until it comes UNDER the 9.99 per month mark and even then, I would like to see it bundled like any other channel.
The best bit of Matt Scotts artical is that British olympic sailors seem to like to get high on the high seas! A tad piratical me thinks!
Last edited by redfan2000 on February 11th at 9:32 AM.
Ummmmm...Ursus is latin for bear, hence griz (presumably short for grizzly bear).
And players are/were most definitely affected by off-field issues. They've admitted as much. A lot of them came to be at Liverpool because of Rafa (including Torres, who said that's why he chose Liverpool!), so if one of the owners is shooting his mouth off that he approached another manager, then yes, that can have an affect on how the team plays on the field! It's not that difficult a concept really.
Ok fine take Chelsea as an example. How do they keep winning even though they went through something more tumultous than what we are going through? Still Drogba says he wants out and they continue to win. Heck, I think most players there were brought in by Mourinho.
At the beginning of last year when Mourinho was saying that all the success was coming down to them being unified I garuantee that everyone here was saying it was because of the fact that RA had bought all those players and that Mourinho was just boosting his ego. So is it now he was correct?
Its not a difficult concept, its just a ridiculous one. I understand fully what you are saying its just something that has no merits or proof. They were winning when this happened, they continued to win after it happened and then on Dec 31st it all stopped.
Ursus Arctos is the latin name for the brown (aka grizzly) bear, LGB.
Verbal, of course you are perfectly correct as is Ursus. However, I wonder how long we will chew the same cudd? I agree with mazmaz's comments below, this has become near as boring as the LFC.TV message boards. What's worse is the fact that it will all surface again in 18 months when the finances are renegotiated with the banks.
As for the Chelsea comparison EGB, when you take your MBA and do the dissertation, you have a very solid model for a comparative study on the effects of the two take overs, their successes and failures etc etc.
Last edited by redfan2000 on February 11th at 8:11 AM.
its going to be a great race for 4th I think but I don't see Liverpool failing to get there. I already posted on this earlier but the 3 chasing teams have the quality but not the experience and depth to pull it off unless Liverpool truly spiral out of control and Benitez is forced out. Aston Villa have a great future but I think their squad is too small and young, Man City could maybe pull it off if they got to play Man U every week but I think teams are figuring Sven and his players out and Everton the team I would rate as most likely to do it will crash their own hopes with fixture clog ups from the Uefa cup. Call it ironic but I seriously believe the added games from a deep Uefa run will hurt Evertons chances but if they finished 4th and qualified next year in the playoff the CL group stage is worth more money to them then this Uefa run. ps Sorry Craigy ;p
Bobby,
Did you see the Barcelona v. Sevilla match? La Liga still captures my respect. I love the style and pace I see there. Did you happen to see Capel? I believe he is only 19 yrs. old. He looked incredible. I have seen quite a youth movement in Spain more so than any other league (except maybe Holland). Am I correct or are there just as many U-20's in the Premership that I'm just not aware of?
Uggggghhhh...Remind me when Tom Hicks said they spoke to Klinsmann and then we'll talk. Also, nice of you to gloss over the fact that it was indeed Rafa and not the two stooges who brought Torres in (Torres said it himself!). You have no legs to stand on LGB.
For every Chelsea you throw out there, I can counter. For instance, I know you follow the NFL. Do you think it's a coincidence that the Giants and Eli Manning grew in confidence from the point of their near-defeat of NE in the regular season to the point they raised the trophy? Conversely, do you honestly think that all the distractions (Spygate, Moss' situation, Brady's playboy image, perfect season, etc) didn't have an affect on the Patriots? If you can affirm that it didn't, then I give up!
Jay, I agree, Everton are the only likely contenders for 4th.
History does have a habit of repeating itself as I said last week. LFC finishing 5th below Everton but winning the CL?
Capel looks very good.
So Bobby, if you were Rafa where would you strengthen?
Thanks for the link to Rod Liddle’s article “Entertainment is watching overrated stars sulk - Mr Capello’s Edwardian-style handling of pampered cretins strikes a happy chord in me”, about Capello’s handling of the England national team players. His articles are most entertaining, and I quote, “His attitude towards the players seemed to be one of patience bordering on mild distaste, which is exactly as it should be.”
I think that approach is what has made Sir Alex so successful. A common thread among all successful managers and their teams is discipline. Players are surrounded by enough people who constantly remind them of how great they are – managers are best served treating them like mere football players.
I will post more later in regards to the Setanta questions but it looks like Setanta is the subject of a takeover bid. Plug in Setanta takeover into a search engine and you will find a few articles.
I don't think Chelsea can be viewed as a model of success, in my humble opinion.
Abramovich is in his fifth season at the club and spent $1B and all they have to show for it is two EPL titles, and nowhere near European glory. In fact they are more of an example of division, because they are still suffering from a divided locker room after the Mourinho exit. Not coincidentally the other two big clubs are comfortably ahead of the rest.
Just read the Manchester Evening Post artical. 3 million subscribers all paying circa (C$15 a month) is a pretty healthy 250 million pounds plus income per annum.
Setanta were heavily in debt as of last fall so no surprise their soccer channel is more expensive than other premium channels. No surprise at all when you have to pay off 396 million pounds over three years, for their tranche of the premiership rights.
Ripe for the picking now, with two plus years to run the the premiership rights. I should think the Irish founders are rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of early retirement. May be they will buy a football club? Setanta is after all 'in bed' with Liverpool TV.
For Arsenal to proove they can be title winners they have to win tonight. At home with a chance to go 5 points clear. Do what Real did when they where presented with the opportunity be ruthless and show the world that you are indeed capable of been champions.
i agree gunner44. i am staying home from work today just to watch the match. i am suprised no one has commented on real's performance this weekend. I love La Liga. I love how teams go for the jugular against real and as gunner44
mentioned, but real seem to be taking their chances so well. sergio ramos's goal was a fluke, but it looked pretty cool anyway u must admit.
bobby, do you think shuster deserves the credit for real madrid's success?
robinho is blossoming under his care and old horsie face is showing he still has some magic left in those boots. robben also looked like his first season with chelsea. i understand valladolid is not a top class team, but the performance was one for the record books.
Last edited by djnima19 on February 11th at 11:21 AM.
I've directed you to a detailed answer to your question whether LFC HAVE to report their full earnings (in short, for the reasons set out there- yes, they do). You said you would explain where the missing LFC profits were once I provided that info. I have. Please answer.
This is not idle back-and-forth- the issue of LFC financing is absolutely crucial for club results in the future. The financing arrangements and resulting NEW interest payment burden from the acquisition of the club by the Dynamic Duo will far exceed any annual LFC profit made in recent years. Since revenues cannot be appreciably increased until the new stadium is open, the loans will have to be serviced by reducing expenses elsewhere- and the only line item where sufficient amounts could be found to cover GBP 20 million + of NEW annual interest (from the Duo's acquisition costs) is in the player transfer budget (or one can borrow more to finance the prior borrowing cost- an even stupider idea ...). Is that ugly picture finally clear?
You claimed that there are "hidden" profits that change the scenario I've presented. Where are they?
Well said. I have nothing to add that could improve on your comments, except a very brief clarification (sorry, MasMaz!):
LGB said: "... this is the first time that I've heard a bunch of fans ACTUALLY blaming the owners for the way a team is playing. When do the players start being held accountable?"
If you actually paid attention, my position- and, if I read them correctly, redfan and verbal- has always been that results have been due to a number of different factors (redfan listed many possible ones), with responsibility for them being shared between the players (in part), the staff (in part), AND the owners (in part).
Unfortunately, of the three the owners should have no role- and that is why their responsibility has been particularly singled out.
Next stop Old Trashford. for once I'm looking foward to an Fa cup game that not reached the last 8 yet.
Adebayooooo continues his amazing goal streak. I was pleased to see that even after having a bad game he didn't put his head down but kept trying and got his reward at last with another brillent goal.
Helb was magnificent tonight and he had two great shots. Deserved a goal. When at his best he is better than Cesc.
Lehman could very well play a role in Arsenal winning something. I am glad he stayed Arsenal have the best back-up keeper in the league, whoever starts.
Problem with Helb is that he is not as consistant as Cesc and doesn't have the leadership qualities that Cesc posesses, but then again few players do especially at such a tender age.
Thierry, haven't you ever heard of jinxing yourself? There's three months left to play - don't forget about injuries, relegation scrapping teams suddenly playing good football, and Man U and Arsenal have a head to head left. It's not over by a long shot. It's a good start, but it's not permanent.
Bobby - my speaker's corner question - last week you posted an interesting article by a journalist regarding playing into his late 30's in a recreational capacity, and the subsequent physical toll. Since I have seen you post about still playing the game today, I am curious what your experience has been relating to your overall fitness and football abilities, and overall knowledge/instincts as you transitioned from 20's, to 30's, 40's and onward. Being in my 30's, and still loving playing the game, just curious to see what I have to look forward to. :)
I'd be curious to see what those who actually know something about the game think, but shouldn't Benitz get rid of Crouch immediately?
Believe it or not, I'm not trying to slag off Crouch, but realistically, Crouch is nowhere near the level of talent you need at striker to content for the league title. He'd be great at Blackburn or wherever.
But here is what happened in the game. With a six foot seven dude up there Liverpool's entire attack was guys trying to pick out Crouch's noggin. Of about thirty crosses, only three or so found his head, and since Chelsea obviously knew to look for those nothing came of them. The ones that didn't find his head resulted in a turnover of possession.
Liverpool might have done better to play with only ten guys, because Crouch on his own is too easy to defend.
Its different if he comes on in the 80th minute to change things up, but I think this accounts for Liverpools lack of apparent attack.
Since Torres likes to run at defenders, and Crouch likes to back in to a set defense, it seems to be an incompatible duo.
Not sure what happend to Kuyt, didn't he used to be a striker?
FOURTH
No not the interminable paint job thingy!
We are in it.
Have been for a while.
We intend to keep it.
Liverpool, Villa, City , Pompey are chasing US.
JAY
Sevilla had two good UEFA Cup runs and now are doing well in the CL.
Leeds leapt at the chance to play in the CL.
Newcastle went into the CL, now look at them.
I can't claim that we have Leeds dodgy financials or the Toon's albatross, or Juande Ramos; what we do have is a manager/chairman with a proven record of steady progress.
We are still in fourth despite the absentees from the ACoN. Some injuries but nothing major. We aren't leaking goals and play well away.
The two games against Brann don't really get in the way of any Premier League games.
A good cup run is blessing for a team not a distraction.
Ask our red friends - what the CL cup run in 05 meant to them. As progress in that comp continued it gave the team confidence and the fans a reason for cheer.
Fiorentina will be the acid test.
The goal this season were/are:-
Avoid relegation - DONE :)
Have a good Cup run - on track for at least one, a good run in another - mostly done
Finish in a European place - certainly doable.
If we won the UEFA Cup I wouldn't care about the anfield result.
Simple really, Inter play like shiite and still win, Liverpool play like shiite and get beat.
Quite possibly the toughest two legged tie the RS will play. Something like no losses in 70 odd games, they only went out of the CL last time around on Goal Difference.
An if you've been lucky enough to see them play when they ar
MORALE
Boss's behaviour affects employees to some degree or other.
Any other opinion is plainly deranged.
PREMIER LEAGUE 39
"We've been reluctant to have official games played in the US," US Soccer chief Sunil Gulati told BBC Sport.
"We'll be guided by Fifa on this matter. But if it's not in line with its rules then we won't sanction it.
OMG A REFEREE ADMITTING HE MADE A BALLS UP
“Just now I have seen the Cambiasso goal on TV for the first time and I have no problem saying that I made a mistake,” the respected official said on Rai.
I was pleased by how well Arsenal played today. Against a difficult opponent, they were able to maintain their composure and get a result rather than throw away a lead, which would have probably happened the last two seasons. They defended very well without the ball. As I've mentioned in past posts, it's not the pretty play that impresses me as much as the mental toughness and improved concentration levels. The kids are growing up fast.
For those that didn't catch the match, Adebayor's goal is worth catching -- fantastic technique to flick up Hleb's pass to avoid the defender's leg and then smash it into the corner where Friedel couldn't get his mitts on it. I'm sick of commentators talking about him being "in the form of his life." Let's try "world class" out on him, gents, he fits that descriptor far better than, say, Michael Owen.
Friedel was fantastic tonight and Arsenal can blame him if they lose the title on goal difference.
"The critical reaction to this sickening absurdity has already been both hostile and acute and scarcely needs any elaboration here."
Same pompous arsehole he's always been. Cack parallel.
Now if he'd used the Dogers to compare to Wimbledon he'd be onto something.
BOBBY
Would you attend a Premier League game in the US or Canada?
Do you always watch football with the same mindset ?
Anyone in football you would refuse to interview?
Are you a left footer or a right footer?
What's the most trouble you've gone through to see a game?
Craigy:
The ref from the Catania-Inter match actually acknowledged that his linesman made a mistake. At the end of the match he acted like a punk and left the field immediately without proceeding to midfield to shake hands with the players. He is the senior memeber of the Serie A refs and needs to set a better example - he has been called out by Collina and I'm sure will now sit a week or two. There a lot of new refs in Serie A this season, most of whom are in their early or mid thirties. They are under a tremendous amount of scrutinty, but Farina needs to do better given his status.
Read this article by Rod Liddle: "Premier greed goes global - Fans are treated like mugs again by football’s merciless money men"; a plan to remove the last English aspect of the EPL – the fans.
www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/col umnists/rod_liddle/article3341857.e ce
Last edited by Venti_vidi_vici on February 11th at 7:36 PM.
It obviously is not over, but well done Gunners! Take advantage of the situation and lead from the number 1 spot! I did not see the whole game, but did watch most of the replay on Setanta. Friedel was amazing. Arsenal did have a fair amount of chances if not consistent play, and he kept Rovers in the game.
Atleti,
If they play at Giants' Stadium, I'll try to get there.
Bobby,
Thanks for the links to the articles. A good batch this post! Also, nice commentary this evening on the FSR.
Craigy I think you mis-interpreted what I meant by the UEFA cup games getting in the way. Its the potential injuries and fatigue and the distraction of another competition that is the problem. I think Everton have a shot but I would love their chances much more if they suddenly bowed out of the tournament this round and especially if Liverpool beat Inter and faced another round of games. Being able to concentrate on one objective and having a thinner schedule is hugely underrated in my opinion. At least I know one manager in Steve Coppell shares the same opinion when he admitted earlier this year when fielding a weak Carling Cup squad that the only thing that mattered to Reading was staying up in the Prem not sideshow cups. Didn't help them next game when they lost 7-4 to Portsmouth but the idea was still there.
Verbal-Hicks talked to Klinsmann? Yes but Christ, Abramovich HIRED(!) Jose's replacement before he even fired him and Jose knew he was there to be his replacement. And Chelsea still continued to win...(RF the situation's are comparable because Chelsea continue to win ON-THE-FIELD despite problems OFF-THE-FIELD. Its why they are two seperate things)
As for the Giants I already used them as an example for me. Coughlin was about to lose his job and his team was trailing 14-0 at the end of the first quarter against the Bills. The following week they had the Pats and everyone knew they weren't going to win that game so they had to come back and beat Buffalo or face being out of the postseason.
Amazingly, even with the off-the-field distractions of Coughlin being let go and that they were in a do-or-die game of not making the playoffs AND they were down 14-0, they were still able to pull it together play awesome and then go on and win the super bowl.
Oh and I never said Rafa wasn't the main reason they brought in Torres. All I said is that Torres was brought in under the new owners watch.
Ursus-No I never said I would come up with "missing profits". I just asked the question.
If they do indeed HAVE to report everything, then I was wrong on the business end.
Verbal, RF and Ursus-Look if it were a one or two game situation I'd understand. But these results happened well before the "fight happened", they won and continued to won even after the "fight happened" and now its been over a month and a half of bad results.
If you ask yourself what would help us win the title: bringing in new players or new owners? Than from there you will get the real answer for why we are playing so bad.
As you said Verbal, its not a difficult concept.
I've had my say, I'll stop talking about it. As my girl says I have this insatiable need to be right and I guess I do. I apologize about that but I hate seeing people lie to themselves.
Are any of you three really concerned that we won't get the fourth spot?
I am the soccer analyst for the Fox Soccer Report and appear twice a week - every Monday and Friday at 10:00 EST. I have also been a regular contributor to the Fox Soccer Channel website since the summer of 2004. Over the last twenty years I have contributed to various radio and television programs throughout North America as well writing about the game for newspapers, magazines and websites.
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