There was a comment on the previous blog from travel coach.
“I've seen Bobby has no love for the England team -- though I do and support Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland whenever they play -- but I feel the need to rant about our abysmal performance--beginning with the $25 we had to pay to watch the game (so I missed it live)!”
Normally I let this sort of remark go but being in a particularly foul mood this morning I don’t think I will let this one pass. First of all any Scottish (Welsh or Irish) view of English football is ambiguous. Being the small neighbor there is the reality of living in the shadow of a larger, more powerful and richer neighbor. Travel coach you may support (I notice that you don’t love) Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland but you are an exception if you actually take an interest in the game in these countries.
It is rarely the case in reverse. If you are a football fan in Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland it is almost impossible not to have a lively and long standing interest in English football. For years our best players have played in the English league to the point that up until fifteen years ago it was almost inconceivable that a good English club side might not contain key players from the other three UK countries.
The performance of the English national team has always been given more prominence particularly around World Cup and European Championship time. However, much of that coverage is insular, myopic and in many cases xenophobic.
The problem comes when someone dares to criticize the English team. Many English fans are ill-equipped to come to a carefully considered opinion of their side and so criticism is often met with open hostility and an attempt to belittle. (It is usually the case that the people most openly hostile to comments are the ones that are the most critical when things do actually implode. Where is the "England must have an English manager" crowd now?)
The issue is not whether I love the English team or not. The issue is whether I am providing a fair and rationale assessment of the English team and performance. Based on my comments prior to the last World Cup and views on the hiring of Steve McClaren I am happy to allow others to come to their own conclusions.
Part 2
Passion - England (and often Scotland's) answer to any football problem. Could someone please explain to me why so many British fans seem to believe that passion is some sort of differentiator between British sides and foreign teams?
How does that square with the foreign (particularly Latin) stereotype of being hot tempered and dare I say overly "passionate"? Isn't the constant use of the word "passion" just another way of saying technically inferior and the only way that it can be covered up is running around more and trying harder? It may work in the short term but it has a limited shelf life.
Doesn't it strike everyone as a bit odd that while British fans worship at the altar of passion that it is other countries - who apparently are not so passionate - produce teams that win the WC and European championships?
The commitment to passion leads to the an over emphasis being placed of players that may be poor but try hard to the exclusion of players that are skilled but are seen as a liability because they don't show passion.
The media in the UK doesn't help either. With a few exceptions it continues to be distrusting of anything foreign and coaching to name only two.
How many times have you heard a commentator make a remark about a foreign signing - "they will soon find out that there are no easy games in the Premiership." What rubbish. First of all the idea that the Premiership is the only competitive league in the world is nonsense. Second it perpetuates the myth that somehow the rest of world lacks a competitive spirit.
And it is not only the English media. I heard one on the weekend when watching the Scotland – Italy match. The Scottish colour commentator (who was an embarrassement throughout) commented to the effect that Luca Toni was starting for Italy even though he was not a regular for Bayern Munich. His evidence – Toni was on the bench against Bolton. Insular and uninformed.
Bobby, wow that's why you are the best. Eloquently stated and rebutting the clowns that challenge you.
Hope you are not in a "fowl" mood because we are slaughtering turkey's down here in the lower 48.
Who here thinks Leo Messi is - and should be crowned 2007 Football Player of the Year?
There's a lot of debate around my work place regarding this matter, some ppl say it's Kaka, some Messi, some Rooney.
I personally think it's Messi. I haven't seen that type of dribbling skills sine (i dare to say) Maradona. I do agree though that Kaka has the best Long range shot, but his dribbling skills are nowhere near Messi's. Not to mention this kid also scores a handful of goals every year.
No need to answer, just though i's throw it out there....=)
Bobby - Nail - Head - almost but a pretty good comment nonetheless. I don't always agree with your opinions but your opinions almost always are more than a gut feel or a knee jerk. On the one hand you are just doing your job but on the other many analysts in football do their job without the knowledge and integrity you seem to bring to the table.
Happy thanksgiving - being English though I don't really DO this particular holiday.
English football has long used the talents of the home nations and basically treated them likes it's own in league play.
Welsh born people will support England then Wales - the chance for success is greater and the possibilities for dissapointment are less.
Rarely does an article give an unbiased opinion when England is concerned - that I have no problem with - I am totally biased when talking about England. What I don't tolerate is second raters who trot out the same platitudes about English football.
I also feel more than happy to criticise England - in footballing terms it is very important to me - I feel obliged to say when it's not good.
I think I'm as objective as an Englishman can be when discussing the English team. LGB might disagree :)
Stuart Pearce is the U21 manager - a player for whom passion has always been more important than skill. He gets his hands on the younger Englishmen before they come into the Full National Side. Why? Really just look at how bad that is.
England's game has always been about giving your all, Heroism in English football is Terry Butcher playing with a bloddy head or Gas
or Gasgcoine crying. Successful English Teams have included players and managers who add just a little bit more than that.
The English don't have a monoploy on passion, four world cups and five European Champiuonships have shown me plenty of passion from all corners of the footballing globe.
The english just like to take things and make them their own then guard them jealously and often ridiculously.
The English can be split roughly into two camps.
Thise that wear 1966 coloured glasses and those that can split the myth and hype away from the reality.
I think the FA has more in the first camp.
I'm a son of a RUDE ISLAND RACE who for hundreds of years strode the globe taking what we wanted and kowtowing to no one. Some English, the media, particularly denizens of the sports world can't lose the weight of all that hostory when they write.
English football is broken. Platitudes about 'root and branch' review from a man who is part of the problem fill me with no sense that things might change.
Do you have any thoughts on who might be a replacement?
Can you speculate on why Barwick is still in a job and likley to be central in picking the next man for the hotseat?
Of all American holidays-- Thanksgiving is my favorite. What's not to love? Lots of good food (although I'm not a big fan of turkey)!
After four games, here's how the WC Qualifiers have shaped up (no more until the summer):
Paraguay 10
ARGENTINA 9
Brazil 8
Colombia 8
Venezuela 6
Uruguay 4
Chile 4
Ecuador 3 (manager sacked; no surprise)
Peru 2
Bolivia 1
Colombia 2-1 ARGENTINA
Unfair result, considering Colombia's goal was blatantly offside. Ironically, I think this was our best performance in the Qualifiers so far. We played with 10 men for a large portion of the game, too (Tevez was sent off). At the end of the day, it wasn't meant to be. Upwards & onwards, Albicelestes!!
Addendum: I'm in agreement with this blog entry, particularly the 'passion' bit. The overall 'hyperbolic claptrap' surrounding England is just ridiculous.
Last edited by atleti on November 22nd at 10:33 AM.
I am thankful for Bobby's well mannered blog. I am thankful that I have a place to share the world's only game with many insightful and classy people (even Ulster). Thank you.
4-5-1 was the right formation when you need a draw and 2 of your best 3 strikers are injured. With Rio, Terry and A Cole (and James, I would have started James) the England defense is a fortress as it has been for many, many years.
I am England fan second only to France. I am upset. I am happy for Becks, he has shown, again, that he is the only ENgland player with any heart and desire. The truth is England's strength is tough, tough defense looking to score a goal on a set piece, long ball, cross, or scramble. That style has served them well for the 10 years I have watched them.
McClaren is not tough he oozes spinelessness and a self serving nature. Where is the British spirit that allowed 3 small islands to dominate the world(good or bad fact) for several hundred years.
Last edited by MasMaz on November 22nd at 10:41 AM.
Atleti - I agree that whoever gave the English a free pass on purloining the term "most passionate" was mad as a bag of cats. What an insult to the rest of the world.
The Death Watch on Sky Sports News is just non-stop.
Macca's toast.....
I think Craigy nailed the problem with England best last week when he stated and I am paraphrasing, how England refuses to perform the self examination required to resurrect their National Side.
Now they have plenty of time.
If they hire the right gaffer and select the right squad and those are a big IF. I expect to see England seriously challenge to qualify and be in the round of 32 for WC 2010. England do not have a "birthright" to qualify or to assume the ridiculous expectation to win any European or International competition.
The game passed them by years ago and there's a lot of hard work and catching up to do.
second this exact same analogy exists in hockey when Canadian players are just plainly overrated for work ethic and passion when compared to technically superior players. The difference in hockey where this type of talk holds some merit is that hockey is a much more physical sport where yes the "more passionate" player can make up the technical difference by smashing players into the boards until his technical ability is in the dressing room getting treatment.
for an example within the epl you don't need to go much further then Ronaldo who is obviously technically superior to maybe every single player on the English national team and the only solution some teams have for him is to cut him down as much as possible.
back to the hockey analogy some instances of hes Canadian he plays with more heart are especially true in the playoffs where there are well documented cases of amazing European players shrinking under the pressure but this is more do to the fact of the physical part of the game and what they are playing for. The Stanley cup does not mean the same thing to everyone and yesterday it was pretty obvious that winning the Euro let alone attending it didn't mean much to several English players.
mazmaz - 4 5 1 isn't a set up that works for england
You saw how confused the front 6 were, they couldn't decide when and where to operate or run or pass
the confusion was heightened by the fullbacks not being covered and getting caught in two minds.
a lone stiker like crouch hollers for dull, aimless balls upfield, england played much much better with 2 up front
Palacio the fact that your workplace is mentioning Rooney over Ronaldo who was clearly their best player last season and still this one shows that there is some bias that is infecting the pool of candidates.
What do people even take into account the 2007 calendar year only or the 2006/2007 season the player played? if its only 2007 Cesc is a candidate then also.
I think its pointless this year as whoever wins isn't the clear best player. At the end of last season my list was Drogba, Ronaldo and Kaka. Messi played himself in at the Copa and Kaka failed to seal the award by skipping the event.
The question I have is will players like Theo, Aglobhore(can't spell his name), Crouch, Lennon, e.t.c end this whole passion thing coz they seem to carry more technic than just passion. Rooney has both but his passion actually seems to do more harm than good sometimes.
Carrick is a player England should try and bring in too coz his passing ability surpasses all England central mids. If you are going to play 4-5-1 have Carrick, Owen .H. and Gerra in the mid.
And as for Messi being player of the Year I don't think so coz you have to go back to earlier this year to and Kaka was by far the best player when you look at what he did for Ac. and although he hasn't hit pick this season he still I think Milans top scorer this season. If not Kaka as much as this hurts to say you have to consider C. Ronaldo as 2nd choice. Then Mess and Cesc can compete for third. I have to add Ronaldo and Kaka won trophies something Messi couldn't do even with Argentina in a final against a not full strength Brazil. Young players have taken over though
England only need to look at one factor for their failure: They glorify their players... They're superstars without winning anything... How can you be the best player in the world without winning the european championship or the world cup...
The standard is so low now. en one look at the great like Franz Beckenbauer, Paolo Rossi, Diego Maradona, Pele... they all won international trophies... but now we have the Rooney, Lampard.. players who haven' won nuttin for england called the greats...
Finally the english media and press is to blame...they elevate their players to stardom..they haven't won nothing in this world... PAY THE PRICE!!!!!!
gunner44 - passion is one of the components that make up a good footballing side -
Brazil, Italy, Greece, Denmark, Germany, France etc etc etc all had their fair share of passion, they also had many other things which made them successful sides.
The bunch of losers on Wednesday night displayed NO passion - apart from Sir David (eventually!)
4 5 1 only really works when you have the wide players.
Craigy-
You are off point re: Crouch. He played as deep as he has ever played yesterday because he HAD to and his useless midfielders could not hold onto the ball.
He played his #### off. With Beckham he was MOTM. Crouch's goal was world class from a similar cross from DB.
gong - crouch's work rate wasn't bad, he was the least worst of the rest of the bunch after Beckham.
My point about having him is a lone striker up front is that a poor midfield will hoof the ball to him rather than play him in, tactics which are amatuerish and easy to defend against. He dropped deeper in the second half more when he had company up front.
This page from the Beeb is EXCELLENT as it tracks the players location throughout the match - Crouch is #12
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foo tball/internationals/7106418.stm>
PS: If crouch played for any other team I might be a bit more gracious in my praise :)
Last edited by craigy_f on November 22nd at 4:33 PM.
The problem with England national team is that they think they are good, but actually they aren't. You english fans need to face the facts. When was the last time England won anything??? Oh yeah, about 40 YEARS AGO!
Make sure you always blog in a foul mood -- awesome post.
If I may take it a step farther, I'd suggest this myopia extends to the Premiership, where Fleet Street assigns far too much credit to domestic players and not enough to foreign stars. A case in two is Liverpool's comeback in Istanbul, where a cult of personality has developed about a swashbuckling Stevie G.'s role in driving forward in a gutsy, passionate performance. Relegated to a smallish sidebar is the tactical switch performed by Rafa at halftime and the crucial role played by Didi Hamann that freed Captain Courgeous to drive forward.
Another case in point is the plaudits assigned to Chelsea's "English spine" (JT, Lamps, Cole) in their two titles while assigning supporting roles to Gallas (their best defender and man marker -- that's why Jose threw a hissy when he left), Essien (who dictated play from midfield) Makelele (who won the ball and shielded the back four) and Drogba, who created a lot of the goals was dismissed as a diving clown. Even after last season, it was interesting to see commentators invariably refer to DD as "in the form of his life" as opposed to "world class" reserving that designation to strikers such as Wayne Rooney and Michael Owen, neither of whom has ever topped 20 goals in the Premiership.
And if people are honest, how many English players would make a Premiership XI? And really, don't trot out the usual suspects because based on that rubbish last night and their performances for club AND country, you could make a case for Rio Ferdinand . . .
Exceptional post! But I wonder if sometimes "they will soon find out that there are no easy games in the Premiership." actually refers to the concept of there being no patsies in the league. That statement would be not completely accurate, but that's my immediate interpretation more often than not.
As the catalyst for part one, I have to say I thought your post didn't reflect a foul mood at all; I think it was well considered. I'm glad I provoked you into writing part one.
For those who didn't, I recommend they view my post, but note I conclude with: "The quality of managers and players has gone down the drain. I don't know what the fix is."
It is true that I do not love the Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland teams. What I do is catch their games whenever I can and cheer my heart out for them when they play, especially the Northern Ireland v. Spain and Scotland v. Italy games this past weekend.
Criticism of the England team doesn't bother me. They've earned it; As I mentioned, I am very disappointed with them. Certainly, Scotland and Northern Ireland were more deserving of a berth in the European tournament.
However, I don't understand cheering for England's opponents. Being English, why would I cheer for Spain and Italy, for example? Why would I want Scotland or Northern Ireland to lose? I wouldn't. I didn't. I would be happy to have a British team in Euro 2008 and am unhappy that it won't happen.
I don't know what role the English leagues have in this. I think it's fine that a good English club have British players; the same with clubs in Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. For that matter, why not merge? Why not have a British football team rather than splitting up great players (ooooh, there's fuel for the fire, eh, to follow on the Olympic mess?).
(Continued ...)
Last edited by travel_coach on November 23rd at 8:17 PM.
I guess I don't understand it all. You'd never see me in a bar cheering against Wales, Scotland, or Northern Ireland. Of course, if they were playing England, I'd cheer for England, but would not cheer against the other teams and would be happy if they upended England (as a fan, two teams you want to win are playing each other: nice).
I find your analysis spot on--like it, enjoy your broadcast. You forecast the lame 4-5-1 approach McClaren started with (and clung to way too long) and wanted a 4-4-2, which he switched to. And, England is a mess, yes. (I refer you to my previous post.) So, perhaps the anti-England "passion" is just a figment of my imagination?
Last edited by travel_coach on November 23rd at 9:13 PM.
I don't think I provoked part two, but I have some ... thoughts. When I was growing up, we actually had a fight at a wedding between the United and City sides of our family. There was passion, all right. I'm a City fan, because of a favorite cousin; my dad was a United fan (I never heard the end of it, even though United wasn't from Manchester).
I don't know that the problem is a lack of passion, but perhaps part of the problem is an overly large number of delicate prima donna multi-millionaires?
(Which is not to say I'm a fan of Joey; I'm not. I'm glad we sent him packing and he shouldn't be in the game at all. But Owen and Rooney seem to spend a lot of time injured, don't they?)
I don't believe the answer is to set a 50,000-pound a year cap on salaries (though it might help some people afford tickets). I do, however, think that some players (Lampard and Owen come to mind) who seem to be entitled to play for their country. I want some scrappers.
Something has to be done with the academies. And, something has to be done to get British players playing more--EU rules be damned. A British manager? I don't care. Despite them bring from London, and despite the fact that they are one of two teams I cheer for United against, I do love the way Arsenal possesses and moves the football (not local boys, I know and wonder ...), and I do dislike the long-ball style of play.
But you know what? I don't know what the fix is. That's above my working-class pay grade. I do know that what's happening now is broken, and has been for a dozen years or more.
Last edited by travel_coach on November 23rd at 8:38 PM.
Great post. I do love your analysis. WRT passion - I think sometimes this gets misused. I think that sometimes what the English players lack are the killer instinct. The ability to kill teams off when you're up (Russia) and the ability to claw back when you're down (Croatia).
Michael Owen talked about it saying that fear and pressure were the problem with the team and that would not be something that people like Tiger Woods would succumb to. He also said that, at this level, success is 99% mental - something I've always thought about the NFL.
I think some of this is on the manager for not pushing the right buttons - the buttons that Bilic was able to push amongst his squad or the buttons that these English players' Prem managers are able to press in league play. You look at the legend of the 1980 US Hockey coach addressing his team after they shocked Russia in the semi-finals, saying something along the lines of "It's great that we beat Russia, but if you lose the final against Finland, you'll take it to your #### graves." I'm sure Steve McClaren played Care Bear Christmas for the England team.
I am the soccer analyst for the Fox Soccer Report and appear twice a week - every Monday and Friday at 10:00 EST. I have also been a regular contributor to the Fox Soccer Channel website since the summer of 2004. Over the last twenty years I have contributed to various radio and television programs throughout North America as well writing about the game for newspapers, magazines and websites.
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