I won't be posting a blog on the game but here's a place tp post your comments. Eight minutes gone and Julio Baptista strikes early to give Brazil a lead then Riquelme thumps one against the post.
baptista needs a drug test after that wonder goal and l feel that argentina have been higgly over respected and this is the first time we are seeing, a team that can take it to argentina, and they are not that convincing and the absense of gilberto is helpfull because they can easily go forward in numbers
To me, while Brazil has played very well from front to back, Argentina has been a nightmare. Their back four have not closed down Brazil at all, allowing them to make passes and shots they should have no time for. Ayala's defence and Messi's poor pass at midfield seemed at fault for the first goal. I thought the problem was in the midfield but subbing Cambiasso and Veron didn't help at all and it's not just the defenders. Is it mentality, formation, or something else? Again, Brazil have looked excellent.
Also, is it me or does the ref seem to have very little control of this game? They are all going to need ankle surgery. I'm watching on uni-vision and I don't speak Spanish so I would love to hear the consensus.
henry14
I definitely don't think this was a striker problem. Messi and Tevez have looked good together before today. Not their best performance but I don't think they have gotten much support or service.
Rooney and Tevez do seem to be very similar and it will be interesting to see how they play together but you're just pissed you didn't get Tevez. I think you need to worry about Arsenals offence more than United's. Check that, try not to worry so much about anything... think happy thoughts. I worry about you. Me? I've got faith in my team and manager. SAF knows what he is doing.
Argentina have played the best football in this tournament until now; Brasil weren't even close and struggled for quite a bit prior to the final. My beloved team fell well short. I still love los albicelestes and I can only hope that justice will be served in 2010. There's plenty of talent coming up through the youth ranks.
I'm just more hurt than upset right now.
Like I said on my blog: It's definitely not the end of the world, but I still feel sick to my stomach. Argentina need a target-man and the defence needs to be revamped.
Brazil played a very physical game with many fouls and time-wasting. It's a victory for negative football--plain and simple-- ironic, considering Bobby mentioned this point earlier today on another game.
I'm still proud to be an Argentina supporter, even with this embarassing scoreline and performance in general. Great memories in this tournament, no doubt about it, but still sad to end it on such a disastrous note.
I believe that Tevez and Messi can play together but only with a real CF, Messi likes the right side and Tevez likes the left but w/o a CF penetrating the defense they can't make there darting runs b/c there is no space.
TH14- I agree the same problem will occur at Man Utd with Rooney and Tevez unless they get another striker or Saha stays healthy(yeah right), you just can't play two small strikers like that, really they are attacking midfielders, even then who sits out of Scholes, Giggs, Carrick, Hargreaves, Ronaldo. Tevez to Man Utd, will set Carlitos career back 2 years as when it doesn't work SAF will bench Tevez and blame everything on him, like he did with Veron.
In the end Argentina only have themselves to blame, again, very poor strategy by Basile. Milito should have led the line with Tevez and Messi in the channels and Riquelme in the center, with Cambiasso and Mascherano as defensive mids, Veron should have been in the stands.
Ahh, the harmonious twittering of two Arsenal supporters whistling past the tombstones.
Neither Messi nor Tevez flourished today because of a lack of service. Who exactly in the Argentine midfleld was delivering quality balls to them? They had nothing decent to work with and looked bad as a result. But it's not their fault.
That won't be a problem at ManU. Tevez and Rooney will see all sorts of decent service because Sir Alex doesn't lack for midfield options and has added some interesting new ones this off season. Quality players, from quality clubs in quality leagues.
Shan't berate you about ManU's repeat prospects but good luck to your club in its quest for a UEFA Vase placement next year.
And if that doesn't work out? Croquet at Emirates, anyone? Or would you prefer Corgi trials?
TTFN.
Congrats to Brazil. I really thought going into this match that there was no way that Brazil could win and it was obvious that up until today Argentina was by far the best side in CA.
One of the few ways to beat a marvelous side like Argentina is to knock Riquelme off his game, Brazil was masterful at that. If Juan had not hit the post and instead scored after Baptista's goal perhaps it would have been a different game.
Riquelme was double and triple teamed most of the match. It's a no brainer how to beat Argentina, stifle their possession. The rest of the Arg. midfield did not help.
Argentina's backline was dreadful. Tevez and Messi were easily handled by Brazil's backline. They did not get great service and weren't particularly adept in their runs off the ball. I am not sure if you put the best target player in the world today up with T and M that they would have scored.
Brazil were certainly the better team on the day and shockingly Basile was outcoached by Dunga.
I still think Argentina is one of the best sides in the world and would prefer to see them play along with Brazil, Italy, Portugal and Spain more than any sides in the world.
Cheers
Mas - Veron was given every opportunity to settle at United. Some players, especially it seems South Americans, who do well in other leagues just don't settle into the English game. Veron did well in Italy but never looked comfortable or effective at United. I'm not sure how SAF could be blamed for Veron's failure to settle at United, and you make it sound as though SAF will sit Tevez down and "blame" him like a bad child. Did I miss that with Veron?? Most teams have had some players come in with high expectations and fizzle. I pay so little attention to Arsenal these days.... but Julio Baptista, Kaba Diawara, and Christopher Wreh are a few from recent years that come to mind who didn’t work out at Arsenal, would you blame Wenger? Come to think of it Veron didn't look very hot at Chelsea when he left, either. Was that SAF's fault? Just more of your typical “I hate United” BS, Mas.
Having said all of that, I too am curious to see how Sir Alex will play Tevez with Rooney but I have a feeling that I'm gonna get to watch you eat your words a little later this year.
Mas and all you other Gooners out there: You have more important things to worry about next year than how Tevez will do with the Champions, you should be thinking about a place in Europe. What’s it like to finish fourth in the Premier league, anyway? Didn’t you finish 12th one year? Jeez that must be awful. Well, good luck. I’m pulling for you.
Well done flash. I hadn't read your post before I put mine through. Poor little buggers. I think Henry14 just switched teams with his namesake but Mas is in for a long one.
Oh FlashPan, I'll take a well written ribbing anyday, much better than the tripe we've been subjected to recently.
There was no space for good service today b/c both Tevez and Messi need the ball at their feet. Imagine if you will, the spacing if someone tall like Milito were able to knock balls down, the depth of the CF would immediately create space. Argentina need to rely on their offense to provide defensive cover, we saw what happens w/o that.
However I am not trying to convince you of anything. I observe and reflect that's all. ManU's problems in repeating will not come down to offense but in their lack of depth at CB and RB, and a decided lack of quality at RB, even more problems if they lose Heinze. My comments were directed towards the interests of Carlitos Tevez' career which I believe will be severely hurt by his move to ManU. We shall see.
And for the money spent by ManU they have done nothing that I would consider good business at this point,besides Hargreaves, but we shall see. As far as Carrick is concerned those were 2 very expensive goals against Roma.
Arsenal will finish in the top three for certain and who knows may make a run in one or two competitions, not bad for not having spent a penny on aggregate.
Let me just say I don't blame SAF for ruining peoples careers, he has developed many a world class player, it's just that I see a logjam and believe Tevez has earned the right to be 1st or 2nd on the team sheet wherever he plays, that is all. He is now my 2nd favorite player and I am loyal.
I did not realize that I come off as sooo anti-United. I don't mean to. Maybe Utd supporters can't take even the slightest bit of criticism which corresponds to what many believe about them.
I have been a fan of the beautiful game for quite a while and the Brazil victory was not a shock. In world football there are teams and there are champions. Over the past 50 years Brazil has proven this time and time again. Brazil knew just what to do to subdue the Argentines and they did it to perfection. In many ways Brazil played just like Dunga used to; Hard nosed, gritty, no nonsense and clinical. This is what was displayed today and it did not come as a shock.I really felt that this was the right balanced Argentine team but I had a feeling mentally the Brazillians would have been more resiliant. We must remind ourselves that in football only one statistic matters, that being the team with more balls at the back of the net over the course of 90 mins. and/or extra time. One thing I have learnt over the years is that Brazil in a final is not the same Brazil in group stages and we learn this in many tournaments. So Kudos to Brazil, it may not have been pretty but it was effective and a fine demonstration of what champions are really made of.
DanG: Brazil were fortunate. Fortunate to get that single piece of brilliance from Baptista so early on. More fortunate to have Riquelme knock the paint off the goalposts soon after with Doni cleanly beaten. Lottery-winning lucky to have Ayala panic and knock in a ball that wasn't going to cause any real trouble.
Riquelme's near miss seemed to frustrate Argentina and they began playing tight and tense. They looked like players who strayed from a game plan and couldn't get back.
I'm sure it's reassuring to Brazilians to know that their 'ugly' team won today, minus the silky skills of Ronaldinho or Kaka. But I'm guessing that style points go out the window when it comes to beating their biggest rival.
Our mistake was stubbornly insisting on offensive and attractive football.
The world has changed. There are too many talented teams playing neutral or defensive games that offensive formations like 4-3-1-2 and 3-4-3 had long been rendered obsolete.
It's pretty obvious that formations such as 4-2-3-1 and 3-5-2 are more advanced and more reliable defensively. And Argentina has always had the players to play these more practical strategies. Instead, we wanted to play offensive football, even if it meant we get knocked the #### out over and over...
The only real senior level success we had in the past 15 years was 1990 worldcup. the 93 copa was not even close in term of prestige. If wasn't for the garbage mexican ref, that 90' worldcup was rightfully ours. Because we played practical and defensive in that tournament.
A successful national team picks its talents first, then build the strategy around the players. Argentineans senior NT does things the other way around. They choose the stupid doctrine first, then find best suited players...
Even our youth team had shown more flexibilities and adaptabilities. Perhaps that's why we could win youth WC, but not even copa.
I'm from Brazil and I'm still stunned. My family and friends are as well. I have joined in the national criticism of the dreadful Brazilian football on offer at this tournament and I truly love the Argentine side. They're an incredible team and I wanted them to slaughter Brazil so we can reconsider our choice to out-Europeanize the Europeans. That said, I am shocked that Brazil performed as strongly as they did--I always prefer to see Brazil win so my feelings are quite mixed. I was very happy to see Baptista show his worth--he has actually been very good at this tournament. I'm a gooner who believed that he just needed more time to adjust to the Prem, as Drogba did. And Brazil were not just "fortunate" to win this game, as one churlish poster said. They EARNED their victory, they worked at it, they suffocated Argentina and they scored goals. I was also shocked to see how stunned Argentina were and how they were unable to come back. Why did Riquelme do all the free kicks? None of them were effective. Why didn't Basile put Crespo on the pitch? Hadn't he recovered from injury?
What I do not like is that Brazil has now become the new Italy: organized, efficient, clinical, disciplined (in keeping to their strategy), relentless, ruthless, utterly brutal. And only rarely attractive.
We are all shocked that Brazil outplayed Argentina so thoroughly..
Argentine may have been overconfident and was stunned and never recovered from being 2-0 down so early..
Second Brazil did not leave any room for Messi and Tevez to play. Alex used his big frame to just push Messi aside and Riquelme though a great player, is the symptom of what fails Argentine soccer.. when his free kicks do not do it he runs out of ideas.. and that was the Albicete problem for 90 minutes on Sunday.. They ran out of ideas and still are behind Brazil when it comes to winning Championship games
As for Brazil by 2010 a number of the Under 20 such as Leandro Lima and Pato under the disciplined approach of Dunga will be adult and Brazil will be again ready to put on the show in South Africa..
Congrats Brazil
Some are so sore after this lesson Brasil taught Argentina (again) and are allowing emotions to control the thought process. "Victory for negative football." Please, this was a victory for a championship team who's leader is a champion and who's B-team now has demonstrated the heart of a champ. Brasil has always been much better than the Argies and this is just another reflection of that. C'mon Argentina can't even beat a B-team Brasil and some want us to think it's negative. Yeah, okay.. Grow up Argies and move on, 2nd best is your rightful place in S. America so accept that. Enough with the envy, it's pathetic.
I wasn't shocked Argentina lost. Too many times in the past a team has coasted through a tournament scoring at will only to be shut down and go down to defeat. The question was what would Argentina do if things didn't go their way. We saw a brief flurry from Argentina after the goal but Brazil killed off the midfield and you could see it in Argentina's body language. Lots of sour grapes from Argentina supporters about the hard tackling by Brazil and their gamesmanship. Gamesmanship is entrenched in the culture of South American soccer. It's only when the opposition works the refs better does it seem to bother Argentina. There are only two powerhouse teams in South America and one clearly has the number of the other.
The best goal in the tournament killed off the second best team in the tournament.
Killer finish, killer pass and Vagner Love stripping the ball from Argentine and Liverpool hardman Mascherano, wonderful.
Dunga's the manager and people are suprised by the way Brazil play?
Basile made an error having Messi and Tevez up front, admittedly the service wasn't great but Milito or Palacio would add an aerial game. Three Argentine corners were dangerously delivered with no one on the end of them.
Tevez and Rooney (if it happens) would put the heeby-jeebies up any Premiership back line.
WC 2010 - Basile will bring a much changed team
Dunga's will be much more similar to his current look
thanks guys and gals for not being foul mouthed and ignorant, comments on some of the other articles are very sad
:P
Be ware of Riquelme. Brilliant yes, but there is good reason why he did not stay at Barca, and Villareal. I think we saw that against the samba boys. Where was Carlitos?
BlackSoccer-
Well said. The only thing I'd like to add is that Brazil just spanked Argentina who had no solutions, on or off the pitch.
This rubbish that Brazil played "negative" football is just so tiring.
Cheers
It looks as though the days of Jogo Bonito are gone and that is a shame. I am a fan of the Brasilian team and am happy they won the game Sunday and do feel they were the better team. I think what many fail to realize is that the game of soccer is changing, evolving. The Brasilian method of play is also evolving as most of the top players coming from Brasil are in Europe and are learning the European style of har5d nosed organized futbal. As this trend continues so will the Europeanisation of Brasilian Futbal. This team, under Dunga, played a pragmatic hard fought game. Gritty would be a good way of describing it. How often could anyone say the words Brasil and Gritty in the same sentence in the past?
Not often, but the players and team mentality have evolved because to play a completely forward running, attacking, defensively irresponsible style of play would not bring results and trophies back to Brasil. They played a non spectacular brand of futbal and STILL won 3-0.
Does this mean Joga Bonito is dead? No, it just means that at the moment, the cyclical evolution of brasilian futbal is at a stage where it was back in the mid 90's under Perriera. Win even if it means winning ugly. Come 2010, which is 3 years away still, it is possible that Dunga (A protege of Carlos Alberto Perriera) will not be the coach, as Brasil tends to go through coaches in quick succession.
Argentina? They played beautifully but in today's futbal world, one must balance beauty with functionality. A lesson that Argentinian futbal must learn if they are going to break the cu
Last edited by Danteslnferno on July 18th at 12:10 AM.
Dante Love your thoughts. It seems many fans are stuck on the prettiness and style of a team and pay no respect to anything else. 2010 is a long way off and the are lots of changes that will happen between now and then. Unknown players will develop and some stars will fade. The question for Argentina should be wheter or not they can overcome their tendency to self destruct. As far back as I can remember, they go into a tournament as favorites, win convincingly early on and then are upset and start whining.
blacksoccer
Brazilian footballer still play the the jogo bonito, just that they have some bite in def and midfield, Maicon is a perfect example, when told to sit back he is an accomplished fullback, but when he gets a licence to go forward he can deliver the killer ball after beating players or get in the box to score.
I think Argentina play a more rounded game than Brazil, they combine European obdurancy and south american flair, they don't play rhythm like the brazilians.
Winning is everything.
DL- Brazilian football of 2007 is like a 1974 Ali, still got all the fancy moves but with a little bit of added steel
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