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ESPN.com is running a fantastic series call Ancient Chaseology, where they went through the seasons from 1975-2003 to see what impact the Chase format would have had on the championship. Unfortunately (IMO) they minimized the amount of time they spent looking at the actual seasons. (This makes sense because as NASCAR's broadcast partner it wouldn't exactly be smart business to show NASCAR in a poor light.) It did get me curious to see how their final "Chase-d up" standings looked with the actual ones.
Now, for the purposes of this comparison it's important to note that the point of the Chase was to put drama in the last race of the season. Therefore, really a 100-point difference isn't a whole lot different than a 400-pont difference, because there is very little chance a driver is going to make up a 100-point difference in the final race (it's mever happened). For example, in 1975 Richard Petty won the Winston Cup by 722 points, while using the scoring reset from the Chase he won by over 200 points, anyway. That's not really doing what NASCAR wanted with the Chase when the last race of the season is irrelevant, is it? That gets a "same".
ACTUAL CHASE
1975 -722 -219 SAME
1976 -195 -125 SAME
1977 -386 -179 SAME
1978 -474 -55 BETTER
NASCAR gets their first "better" here. Cale Yarborough had a 173-point reduced to ten points over Darrell Waltrip at the start of the Chase. Cale won five races to take the championship, while DW won only one but had nine top-fives in ten races to finish second. Bobby Allison won three Chase races to finish third by 81 points, he finished second in reality, almost 500 points behind Yarborough.
1979 -11 -13 SAME
1980 -19 -14 SAME
1981 -53 -153 WORSE
1982 -72 -202 WORSE
1983 -47 -24 SAME
1984 -65 -25 SAME
People, this is SIX years in a row of finishes that came down to the last race. No Chase necessary here, right? Not only that, two of these years were made MUCH worse by the Chase, with DW winning five Chase races in 1981 (including four in a row) and 1982.
1985 -101 -62 BETTER
1986 -288 -129 SAME
1987 -489 -41 BETTER
I struggled to give NASCAR a "better" in 1985, but at least at 60 points there is more hope that at 101 points. Dale Earnhardt's 1987 gets a lot closer when Bill Elliott wins three of the last four races, only to come up short in the Chase a la Jimmie Johnson in 2004.
1988 -24 -65 SAME
1989 -12 -97 WORSE
1990 -26 -114 WORSE
1991 -195 -162 SAME
1992 -10 -79 WORSE
1993 -80 -234 WORSE
Five times in six years NASCAR's championship is separated by 80 points, including four by 26 or less. Note that in all those seasons the Chase would have made the gap to second WIDER.
1994 -444 -156 SAME
1995 -34 -106 WORSE
1996 -37 -69 SAME
1997 -14 -104 WORSE
1998 -364 -329 SAME
1999 -201 -119 SAME
I'm starting to question how far back NASCAR went with these numbers...
2000 -265 -79 BETTER
2001 -349 -12 BETTER
2002 -38 -64 SAME
2003 -90 -48 BETTER
Oh.
All-in-all, I came up with three "better"-s before 2000. THREE! Did anyone - you know - LOOK at this stuff before creating the Chase? I know the last four championships have been pretty close, but every year from 1979 to 1984 had a close championship finish, and the same thing happened eight times from 1988 to 1997.
I think the biggest indictment of the obvious lack of thought NASCAR put into the Chase is this stat.
FINISHES SEPARATED BY 100 POINTS OR MORE (1975-1999)
No Chase: 11
With Chase: 14
Um - HELLO?! That's MORE wide finishes, not less! I mean, how long would it have taken to figure THAT out? I got six better Chase seasons than actual seasons out of 29. And NINE worse ones. So, I think we can safely dispel any myth that NASCAR created a method more likely to get a close championship than they had in place already. (What I would give to see Kyle Busch win the championship by 329 points THIS year.)
I give NASCAR due credit where they've earned it on the Chase. Richmond and the races leading up to it seem a LOT more important than they used to be. People are more in tune with the top-15 or so drivers duirng the season than they used to, IMO. Those are GOOD things.
However, NASCAR hasn't had a driver lose the championship in the last race since 1992. Before that it had only happened ONCE before - in 1979. The common denominator through all those seasons has been the general points system used from race-to-race. Maybe NASCAR should have considered THAT before they decided the Chase was the way to try to guarantee close championship finishes?
A note from your friends at AT&T
Thursday, August 14, 2008, 08:00 AM EST
[General]
Although I am an AT&T customer, I'm posting this e-mail I received for a couple of different reasons.
1. I was curious to see if anyone else got it - though I suspect I'm in the minority since my e-mail is in my "about me" sidebar. 2. Although it is possible every e-mail she sends starts out that way, I was very impressed that she at least acknowledged that this would look kind of weird on my blog. Very nice, I thought - much better that your typical spam. (This is unedited.) Hi Jay Jay- Might be too consumer focused for your blog - but could be a nice bit of info for your readers. NASCAR fans can now be part of the action without being at the track, thanks to AT&T. Race fans can now watch live video coverage of the NASCAR Nationwide Series and the Sprint Cup Series on their mobile phones using ESPN's Mobile TV. Upcoming races include (all times Eastern on ESPN Mobile TV): Tags:
JJD's updated points standings after Watkins Glen
Monday, August 11, 2008, 06:51 PM EST
[General]
Dear ESPN commentator guys,
You generally do a swell job. Honestly. I mean it. DJ is a HUGE improvement over Rusty Wallace - maybe the biggest upgrade in NASCAR since Kyle Busch replaced J.J. Yeley. Love all of the pit lane reporters. AB does a great job, especially since he's dealing with Mutt and Jeff in the studio spot. Having said all that - WHAT was with you guys Sunday? Specifically, why didn't ONE person on the ENTIRE broadcast, see fit to mention that, in reality, what happened to Dale Earnhardt Jr. WASN'T SO BAD? Do you realize that there was ONE place for Junior to finish that would have made his Sunday REALLY matter? (That would be FIRST-place, btw.) Junior is basically IN the Chase - it's time for him to go checkers-or-wreckers, baby! Is there NO ONE on TV who gets that? I mean, *I* get it. Junior and Tony Eury Jr. seemed to get it based on their strategy. They were going for the WIN. Period. You guys seemed to get that when Jimmie Johnson was in the Nationwide race Saturday. Where was that thinking Sunday? Does NASCAR muzzle you guys so you won't write-off the top few drivers? What's the deal? It's not like it's a BAD thing - you could have revisited the point when Kyle Busch was trying to hold off Tony Stewart - Tony needed the POINTS because he was ninth in the standings, but Kyle needed the WIN because that's all that matters for him until the Chase. Of course, since you didn't *visit* the point, I suppose *revisiting* it was impossible, then. Head-scratchingly yours, JJD SPRINT CUP (DRIVERS) Rank Points LW 1 Kyle Busch 263 1 2 Carl Edwards 204 2 3 Jimmie Johnson 174 3 4 Dale Earnhardt Jr. 147 4 5 Tony Stewart 135 7 6 Denny Hamlin 128 6 7 Jeff Gordon 126 5 8 Kasey Kahne 114 8 9 Greg Biffle 108 9 10 Matt Kenseth 107 10 11 Jeff Burton 106 10 12 Clint Bowyer 96 12 13 Kevin Harvick 87 13 14 Kurt Busch 66 16 15 David Ragan 65 14 16 Ryan Newman 64 15 17 Martin Truex Jr. 62 18 Brian Vickers 62 17 19 Mark Martin 50 19 20 Elliott Sadler 45 20 Last week, I casually mentioned that the Woo Brothers had finally led a lap in 2008, scoring their first JJD point of the season. Well, that must have made them hungry for more, because incredibly Marcos Ambrose finished third in the Wood Brothers Ford Sunday. It was a parity-filled finishing order, with nine teams in the top-eleven finishing spots. Only Joe Gibbs Racing, with their cars finishing 1-2-8, broke through with a good day across the board. Also, A.J. Allemndinger finished 11th to put his #84 Red Bull Toyota into the top-35 for the first time, an incredible accomplishment given how difficult it is to get out of GOGH-land. SPRINT CUP (TEAMS) For those of you keeping track, that puts Ambrose in company with Joey Logano, Brad Keselowski, and Scott Wimmer as Nationwide-only drivers (though Ambrose does have those two pesky Cup starts) to win in 2008. And we need to change the series, why, exactly? Also, Kyle Busch got into a car that had never seen the track for a team making their series debut Saturday. Naturally, he finished second, extending his JJD points lead. NATIONWIDE SERIES Rank Points LW 1 Kyle Busch 249 1 2 Clint Bowyer 189 2 3 Carl Edwards 166 3 4 Brad Keselowski 156 4 5 Denny Hamlin 143 5 6 Tony Stewart 124 6 7 David Reutimann 114 7 8 Kevin Harvick 105 10 9 David Ragan 100 9 10 David Stremme 98 8 11 Scott Wimmer 91 11 12 Mike Bliss 80 12 13 Joey Logano 77 13 14 Marcos Ambrose 71 18 15 Jason Leffler 66 15 16 Dale Earnhardt Jr. 64 14 17 Greg Biffle 57 16 18 Jeff Burton 54 17 19 Brian Vickers 47 19 Matt Kenseth 47 23 Kudos to Carl Edwards, btw. If you had to take someone out of the race Saturday, Clint Bowyer was as good as anyone. Anything to tighten up the points-race. NATIONWIDE SERIES (TEAMS) Rank Points 1 Brad Keselowski 272 2 David Ragan 234 3 David Reutimann 231 4 Mike Bliss 190 5 David Stremme 176 6 Scott Wimmer 151 7 Jason Leffler 134 8 Marcos Ambrose 112 9 Joey Logano 104 10 Mike Wallace 98 11 Jason Keller 95 12 Steve Wallace 85 13 Kelly Bires 78 14 Dario Franchitti 73 15 Bobby Hamilton Jr. 66 There was a Craftsman Truck Series race Saturday at Nashville? Why would NASCAR put a Truck Series race the same day as a Nationwide race? How am I supposed to remember that? Johnny Benson won, making it three-in-a-row and extending his JJD points lead over Ron Hornaday, who finished fifth. CRAFTSMAN TRUCK SERIES Rank Points LW 1 Johnny Benson 178 1 2 Ron Hornaday 165 2 3 Matt Crafton 125 3 4 Todd Bodine 116 5 5 Erik Darnell 113 6 6 Kyle Busch 109 4 7 Jack Sprague 84 8 8 Mike Skinner 83 7 9 David Starr 72 9 10 Rick Crawford 66 10 While Toyotas won two of the three races this weekend, Ford had a surprisingly good all-around weekend themselves, with Marcos Ambrose finishing first and third and Erik Darnell finishing second in the Truck race. In fact, it was a pretty parity-filled weekend (paritous?), as even Dodge put a finisher in the top-seven all weekend. MANUFACTURERS Rank Points LW 1 Toyota 1142 1 2 Chevrolet 1007 2 3 Ford 810 3 4 Dodge 452 4 Tags:
Is this year's Race to the Chase better?
Friday, August 8, 2008, 08:49 AM EST
[General]
I got a comment on my post the other day to the effect of "finally we have a good Race to the Chase", and I thought, really? I felt like I remembered all of the Richmond races having SOME level of drama, and we've had big-time drivers miss the Chase nearly every year. This year's Race to the Chase SEEMS really close, but is it any closer than in previous years? I thought I'd break it down.
Note: I think Jeff Gordon is IN the Chase, and he is 166 points above 12th-place right now, so I'm making the cut-off for Chase spots that appeared to be clinched at 150 points above the cut-off for that season. 2004 - after 21 races Chase spots "clinched": 6 out of 10 Drivers <150 points ABOVE the cut-off: 4 Drivers <150 points BELOW the cut-off: 5 The first Chase for the Nextel Cup. Nobody really knew going in what to expect, including NASCAR, who had that silly 400-point cut-off built as though it was even possible. (Over the last five seasons, being 400 points behind the leader would put you no worse than NINTH in the standings with five races to go.) At this point, there was major star-power locked into the Chase, with Jimmie Johnson (seeking his first title), Jeff Gordon (looking for #5 and coming off Indy win #4), Dale Earnhardt Jr. (in his finest season), Tony Stewart (the '02 champ), and Matt Kenseth (the defending champ) in the top-five in the standings. Elliott Sadler, fresh off a third-place run at the Brickyard, was sixth in points and 163 points clear of 11th. Behind those six guys was a real dogfight. Kurt Busch was seventh in points, 104 ahead of rookie Kasey Kahne in 11th. Between them were Bobby Labonte driving a Joe Gibbs Chevrolet, Kevin Harvick, and Ryan Newman in the last Chase spot. Right behind Kasey (and I mean RIGHT behind) was his Evernham Motorsports teammate, Jeremy Mayfield, just one point back. 1999 series champion Dale Jarrett was 55 points out of the Chase in his Robert Yates Racing Ford, and he had just finished second at the Brickyard. Jamie McMurray was 109 points out of the Chase in his Ganassi Dodge, and Mark Martin sat 15th, 123 points out of the Chase. 2005 - after 21 races Chase spots "clinched": 6 out of 10 Drivers <150 points ABOVE the cut-off: 4 Drivers <150 points BELOW the cut-off: 4 After 2004's extremely close fight to make the Chase, 2005 brought a different sort of wild lead-up to Richmond. A couple of familiar names were atop the standings - Tony Stewart and Jimmie Johnson, but Greg Biffle's breakout season had him in third-place, and Rusty Wallace had a rebound year that saw him move from 17th in the standings after Indy '04 to fourth in '05. Kurt Busch was well-positioned to defend his '04 title from fifth-place, and Mark Martin was sixth. The next group of drivers was an interesting mix of younger drivers and veterans. Ryan Newman was seventh, followed by Jeremy Mayfield, Dale Jarrett, and Carl Edwards, who was in his first full season for Roush Racing. The guys trying to get from the outside-in were led by Jamie McMurray in 11th, Elliott Sadler in 12th, and Kevin Harvick in 13th. However, none of the drivers I've mentioned were the REAL story of the RttC '05. Notice who I HAVEN'T mentioned yet? Jeff Gordon was mired in 14th in points, 87 behind Edwards, but he was in MUCH better shape than Matt Kenseth, who was 158 points out of the Chase. And if Kenseth barely had a pulse, what did that say for Dale Earnhardt Jr., himself 23 points behind Kenseth? 2006 - after 21 races Chase spots "clinched": 5 out of 10 Drivers <150 points ABOVE the cut-off: 5 Drivers <150 points BELOW the cut-off: 2 I should put an asterisk of something by the "clinched" drivers for 2006. Jimmie Johnson and Matt Kenseth were WAY out in front in points, but third-place Jeff Burton was only 174 points above 11th, and Kyle Busch and Kevin Harvick were tied for fourth, 158 points above 11th. Behind them were five drivers separated by 100 points - Mark Martin, rookie Denny Hamlin, Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, and Dale Earnhardt Jr. Gordon and Junior were trying to make the Chase after failing to qualify in 2005, and Stewart found himself just 44 points above the cut-off to make the Chase while trying to defend his 2005 championship. They were not lacking for talented drivers trying to Chase them down, either. Kasey Kahne and Greg Biffle, each trying to make their second Chase, were 11th and 12th in points, with Kasey only 37 points behind Junior for 10th. However, there were no other drivers within shouting distance of the Chase - Kurt Busch was next in 13th, 164 points back, and Carl Edwards was 14th, out by 232 points. Of course, we all remember what happened - Kasey finished third at Richmond and knocked Tony out of the Chase. In response to seeing Gordon, Junior, and Smoke all miss the Chase in a two-year span, NASCAR expanded the Chase to twelve drivers, and in response to Tony's three race wins during the Chase, NASCAR changed the seeding in the Chase as well. 2007 - after 21 races Chase spots "clinched": 10 out of 12 Drivers <150 points ABOVE the cut-off: 2 Drivers <150 points BELOW the cut-off: 2 Last year's RttC? Not an all-timer, let's just put it that way. Jeff Gordon was out in front by a country-mile (366 points!) and the top group of drivers had pulled away, leaving essentially a three-man race for two Chase spots. The only redeeming thing about the '07 RttC was that the third guy in line was Dale Earnhardt Jr., whose repeated expired motors placed him 13th in points after Pocono, seven behind Kurt Busch and 45 points behind his Dale Earnhardt Inc.-teammate Martin Truex Jr. Junior's pending move from DEI made it more interesting, but it didn't make the competition any better and ultimately, and fittingly, Junior's motor blew up again at Richmond, putting Bowyer and Busch in the Chase. 2008 - after 21 races Chase spots "clinched": 6 out of 12 Drivers <150 points ABOVE the cut-off: 6 Drivers <150 points BELOW the cut-off: 2 The 2008 RttC at this point most closely resembles the 2006 version, with six drivers bunched tightly above the cut-line and only two drivers really within striking distance. None of the drivers currently in the top-12 would be in their first Chase if they qualify, so it is a fairly veteran group. Tony Stewart is in ninth, just as he was with five races remaining in 2006 when he (cue ominous music) missed the Chase. Matt Kenseth is 13th, 11 points out of the Chase in his bid to join Jimmie Johnson as the only drivers to qualify for all five Chases. And David Ragan is 14th, quietly lurking only 56 points out of the Chase. Drivers have come from further back to make the Chase twice, and Ragan has put together a very Clint Bowyer-in-'07-ish season, with only four top-five finishes and seven top-tens, but only two DNFs. I guess after looking at it, I'd say we're not looking at the BEST Race to the Chase EVER or anything, but at least we seem to have some serious potential for drama over the next five weeks. Of course, after the nearly foregone conclusion of last season, it was going to be hard NOT to improve the Race to the Chase in 2008. Tags:
JJD's updated points standings after Pocono
Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 06:47 PM EST
[General]
The
second Pocono weekend has finally come-and-gone - man, that race is
interminably long. I realize the track owners are looking to make as
much money as possible, but with both races so close and rain delays
seemingly every year, they REALLY should make those races 400 miles
long. Count me in with everyone who is thinking that way.
With five races remaining until the Chase for the Sprint Cup, it looks like eight drivers are battling for six spots. The standings 1-14 are as follows: 1 Kyle Busch 3059 2 Dale Earnhardt, Jr. 2883 -176 3 Carl Edwards 2874 -185 4 Jimmie Johnson 2859 -200 5 Jeff Burton 2833 -226 6 Jeff Gordon 2678 -381 7 Kasey Kahne 2592 -467 8 Greg Biffle 2589 -470 9 Tony Stewart 2569 -490 10 Denny Hamlin 2547 -512 11 Kevin Harvick 2520 -539 12 Clint Bowyer 2512 -547 13 Matt Kenseth 2501 -558 14 David Ragan 2466 -593 The top-5 drivers are most certainly IN the Chase, and I'm reasonable sure Jeff Gordon is not going to lose his 177-point cushion over 13th-place. What is interesting is looking at where the eight battling drivers are in point over the last five races. 7 Kasey Kahne 2592 -467 Last 5 races: 634 points (6th) 8 Greg Biffle 2589 -470 Last 5 races: 570 points (14th) 9 Tony Stewart 2569 -490 Last 5 races: 661 points (3rd) 10 Denny Hamlin 2547 -512 Last 5 races: 539 points (16th) 11 Kevin Harvick 2520 -539 Last 5 races: 630 points (7th) 12 Clint Bowyer 2512 -547 Last 5 races: 588 points (12th) 13 Matt Kenseth 2501 -558 Last 5 races: 609 points (11th) 14 David Ragan 2466 -593 Last 5 races: 621 points (10th) ALL of those drivers have been VERY close, with none slumping too badly. What that means is while you would tend to follow the drivers up-front - check to see if any of these eight guys experience misfortune and end up near the back. One 40th-place finish could be enough to knock a driver out of the Chase. Incidentally, a guy who should be REALLY hacked off is Martin Truex Jr. Without the 150-point penalty he would be 52 points behind David Ragan, and he has scored the eighth-most points over the last five races, so he would be poised to capitalize on misfortune instead of 17th in points. In JJD points news, Carl Edwards has finished second and first the last two weeks, and with Kyle Busch's two subpar results (15th at Indy and a bad-luck 36th at Pocono) he has closed right up on Busch. Kyle and Carl each have a series-leading eight top-two finishes in 2008. (Jimmie Johnson is next with five top-twos, and Kasey Kahne is the only other driver with more than two.) SPRINT CUP (DRIVERS) Rank Points LW 1 Kyle Busch 240 1 2 Carl Edwards 200 2 3 Jimmie Johnson 167 3 4 Dale Earnhardt Jr. 146 4 5 Jeff Gordon 126 5 6 Denny Hamlin 123 5 7 Tony Stewart 118 11 8 Kasey Kahne 114 7 9 Greg Biffle 108 7 10 Jeff Burton 106 9 Matt Kenseth 106 10 12 Clint Bowyer 96 12 13 Kevin Harvick 79 13 14 David Ragan 65 17 15 Ryan Newman 64 14 16 Kurt Busch 63 15 17 Brian Vickers 62 15 18 Martin Truex Jr. 52 18 19 Mark Martin 50 20 20 Elliott Sadler 45 19 JGR continues to lead the owners points as Hendrick and Roush continue to chase. The last two weeks have seen top-three finishes of HMS-RFR-JGR at Indy and RFR-JRG-HMS at Pocono. And - a big shout-out goes out to the Wood Brothers, who scored their first JJD point of the season when Bill Elliott led lap 170 Sunday. SPRINT CUP (TEAMS) However, Ron Fellows winning in Canada? Cool. Same with the overall experience of watching a rain race. Now, just put some REAL headlights in the cars next time (like ALMS cars) and have a REAL rain race. NATIONWIDE SERIES Rank Points LW 1 Kyle Busch 232 1 2 Clint Bowyer 189 2 3 Carl Edwards 166 3 4 Brad Keselowski 148 4 5 Denny Hamlin 143 5 6 Tony Stewart 124 6 7 David Reutimann 113 7 8 David Stremme 98 8 9 David Ragan 96 9 10 Kevin Harvick 93 10 11 Scott Wimmer 91 11 12 Mike Bliss 80 12 13 Joey Logano 71 13 14 Dale Earnhardt Jr. 64 14 15 Jason Leffler 60 15 16 Greg Biffle 57 16 17 Jeff Burton 51 17 18 Marcos Ambrose 50 21 19 Brian Vickers 47 18 20 Mike Wallace 46 19 Despite Joey Logano's unfortunate crash at the race's end Saturday, the 20 team continues to be way out in front. Interestingly for this week's race at the Glen, we'll get to see Kyle Busch in probably the worst car he's driven all season (at least on paper) - the #92 D'Hondt Motorsports Camry making its maiden appearance of 2008. Kyle's win at ORP (less 15 or so HP, as you know), amazingly bumped the part-time #18 Camry up to third in the JJD owners standings. Random aside: I wonder why Jack Roush doesn't run a full season with three cars? He's got the #60 and the #6 full-time, but he's got the #16 in 18 races and the #17 in 8 so far in 2008. I don't think the world would end if Matt Kenseth drive the #16 or Greg Biffle the #17 (Kyle Busch and Denny Hamlin drive the #20 and we survive OK). Seems like Roush is just sacrificing some spots in the owners standings for no reason. The #16 is 23rd and they would probably be sniffing the top-10 if they were a full-time team. Jack must get a lot of cheddar to have the #17 out there sometimes when the #16 is parked. NATIONWIDE SERIES (TEAMS) Rank Points 1 Brad Keselowski 258 2 David Reutimann 227 3 David Ragan 226 4 Mike Bliss 186 5 David Stremme 176 6 Scott Wimmer 151 7 Jason Leffler 123 8 Mike Wallace 98 9 Jason Keller 95 10 Joey Logano 92 11 Marcos Ambrose 91 12 Steve Wallace 85 13 Kelly Bires 77 14 Bobby Hamilton Jr. 64 15 Dario Franchitti 53 Johnny Benson and Ron Hornaday continue their death struggle in the Craftsman Truck Series, finishing 1-2 last week at ORP. Benson's win ties Hornaday for the series lead with three in 2008. CRAFTSMAN TRUCK SERIES Rank Points LW 1 Johnny Benson 157 1 2 Ron Hornaday 154 2 3 Matt Crafton 123 3 4 Kyle Busch 109 4 5 Todd Bodine 98 5 6 Erik Darnell 96 6 7 Mike Skinner 83 7 8 Jack Sprague 71 8 9 David Starr 68 9 10 Rick Crawford 66 10 Two weeks after the much-ballyhooed horsepower reduction of Toyota's Nationwide engine, the results have been inconclusive at best. Kyle Busch won immediately at ORP, but no Toyota finished higher than 15th in the wacky Montreal event. However, Jacques Villeneuve and Joey Logano were among the leaders before accidents on the final lap cost them good finishes. MANUFACTURERS Rank Points LW 1 Toyota 1079 1 2 Chevrolet 968 2 3 Ford 758 3 4 Dodge 420 4 Tags:
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